Our offensive depth is so good that players are playing in ideal positions

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Dan said:

I love the way the’ve built the roster on offense. It's worked! I think they tried a similar approach on defense but keep missing that key player. They wanted it to be Von... He got injured. Then Milano... Injured. Ed Oliver? He's inconsistent and to easily neutralized.  Without that one key difference maker on defense, we end up with a very good defense with a lot of good players. But noone that can step up and take over a game when it 's needed.

 

 

Yea they need a player who dictates on defense. They haven't had one since Tre did the first injury. When he was in his prime the Bills could dictate where they wanted the ball to go because teams didn't want to test White often even when he was one on one. We don't have anyone in the secondary or up front who affects gameplans like that these days. 

[Dan]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea they need a player who dictates on defense. They haven't had one since Tre did the first injury. When he was in his prime the Bills could dictate where they wanted the ball to go because teams didn't want to test White often even when he was one on one. We don't have anyone in the secondary or up front who affects gameplans like that these days. 

Exactly! The closest we get is Oliver. IMO, if we get to the Super Bowl it's because Ed plays out of his mind.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, finn said:

For example, it's more likely randomness more than some ineffable winning quality that contributed to KC's near-perfect record this year--and their playoff run last year, when the Ravens or Bills could just as easily gone to the Super Bowl instead. Once you winnow the field to the elite teams, it's pretty much a coin flip from there on.

 

I mean this logic seems pretty flimsy when you consider that there have been two teams this millennium that have dominated the Super Bowl conversation in their respective eras. I don't think the Patriots and Chiefs just happened to win more coin flips. Personally I think it boils down to elite coaching and elite QB play in high-leverage moments. The formula for a dynasty is established. The problem is that we only have half of that formula.

 

Edited Wednesday at 06:41 PM by HappyDays

[BADOLBILZ]

22 hours ago, BillsFan619 said:

Me and @NewEra started a good convo in the “Ty Johnson wife’s sign” thread that I thought would be a good thread on its own.

 

NewEra said, “Our depth at the (RB) position is fierce. As is WR, TE and OL…while we may be lacking top tier talent across the board, our offensive depth is impressive.  Beating KC without our last 2 1st rd picks,  both playmakers, is a testament to that.”

I said “We have such good to really good offensive players that it allows each player to play in the number role (ie- TE2, WR3, RB1) that they’ll do best in, be most effective in and be most dangerous in. We have it with Kincaid and Knox. We have it with our WRs, which was one reason I’m so glad we got Cooper. And, we have it with our RBs as well.”

 

Gabe Davis is a great example of this in a previous offense. He was a great WR3, but then struggled to become a great WR2 after (he wasn’t a bad WR2).

 

This year though, we have it at every weapon position: WR, TE and RB. This is one reason our offense is so dangerous and playoff ready.

 

Props to Beane and McD especially with what they had to work with cap-wise. Bring on the playoffs!

 

Go Bills!

 

 

They do have very good depth at RB, TE and WR.   

 

But where you are stretching it is thinking that is what allows them to play roles that suit them.   The reason they can is because they added Cooper and Coleman stepped up.   Before that,  Bills opponents didn't have to defense the entire field and it was becoming "nobody eats".  

 

The reason is that there was a lot of redundancy in what the majority of the Bills receiving threats could do.    Cooper and Coleman are the exceptions.  They had some early season blowouts but they weren't really offense-driven.   But since the Cooper trade they've scored 30+ in 8 of 9 games.   Aside from the lethargic Pats effort the only one where the offense wasn't sharp was the game in Indy where they scored 23 offensively........with Cooper out.

 

And you lost me at Gabe Davis.   In hindsight we should shudder at the thought that behind Diggs in 2022 the Bills next 3 best passing game weapons were ball droppers Davis, Knox and Lil' Dummy.   The suspense of whether they'd even catch it or not was palpable.

[BADOLBILZ]

55 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea they need a player who dictates on defense. They haven't had one since Tre did the first injury. When he was in his prime the Bills could dictate where they wanted the ball to go because teams didn't want to test White often even when he was one on one. We don't have anyone in the secondary or up front who affects gameplans like that these days. 

 

Yeah this is why the Bills are the Vegas favorite to land Myle Garrett in trade this offseason.   They need a difference maker.   Rousseau may eventually get there but if he continues to track like a better, latter day version of Calais Campbell he might not hit that point where he can be considered great until he reaches his athletic peak at 26-27.   Which is a way off.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yeah this is why the Bills are the Vegas favorite to land Myle Garrett in trade this offseason.   They need a difference maker.   Rousseau may eventually get there but if he continues to track like a better, latter day version of Calais Campbell he might not hit that point where he can be considered great until he reaches his athletic peak at 26-27.   Which is a way off.

 

I think Groot and Ed are the two guys who have that level of talent. It just hasn't translated to consistently doing it. They have been game wreckers at times but it's that guy the opposition knows beforehand every week "right we gotta keep X quiet to win."

 

I think what @Dan says about Oliver above applies equally to Groot. For us to make it through the playoffs and win the Superbowl we are going to need one of them to play out of their minds for 3 or 4 games. I don't think he was at their level talent wise but remember the year Baltimore won it Paul Kruger the pass rusher with long hair played incredible in the post season. Sacking Quarterbacks, forcing fumbles, he just turned into a monster for like 4 weeks. We need something like that. Kruger signed a big FA deal with Cleveland after the season and was never heard of again 🤣. 

[finn]

49 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I mean this logic seems pretty flimsy when you consider that there have been two teams this millennium that have dominated the Super Bowl conversation in their respective eras. I don't think the Patriots and Chiefs just happened to win more coin flips. Personally I think it boils down to elite coaching and elite QB play in high-leverage moments. The formula for a dynasty is established. The problem is that we only have half of that formula.

 

I'm not discounting the myriad factors that go into winning football, including elite QB play and coaching; I'm just agreeing with the OP that randomness plays a bigger role that most people think. Injuries are a prime example. I'm convinced the Bills would have beaten KC last year if Bernard had been healthy. That critical factor is ignored in the crowing narratives of KC dominance over the Bills. 

[fergie's ire]

16 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Is Doyle still actually on the team?? LOL  Thought he was let go with an injury settlement or something??  I noticed it on Allens X-Mas gift, first time I'd seen his name mentioned in months. 

 

I do think Van Pran Granger , Gouraige (sp?),  VanDemark, and Anderson are all very good backups too.  That was one of the big concerns if any of the starters got hurt, our backups basically were all inexperienced.  At this point all have a year under their belt and cheap contracts.  Beane could consider trading one of them as barring  injury can't see any of them getting on the field over the life of their rookie contract.

 

He was cut, but then re-signed a few days later and put on the PUP list, I believe?  I can't remember the details but remember they had to cut him first in order to make it work. 

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think Groot and Ed are the two guys who have that level of talent. It just hasn't translated to consistently doing it. They have been game wreckers at times but it's that guy the opposition knows beforehand every week "right we gotta keep X quiet to win."

 

I think what @Dan says about Oliver above applies equally to Groot. For us to make it through the playoffs and win the Superbowl we are going to need one of them to play out of their minds for 3 or 4 games. I don't think he was at their level talent wise but remember the year Baltimore won it Paul Kruger the pass rusher with long hair played incredible in the post season. Sacking Quarterbacks, forcing fumbles, he just turned into a monster for like 4 weeks. We need something like that. Kruger signed a big FA deal with Cleveland after the season and was never heard of again 🤣. 

 

 

I do remember Kruger.  He was awesome in that stretch.   As was the non-elite Flacco.  And they beat Luck, Manning and Brady to do it.  So that is an example that proves it CAN happen.

[BearNorth]

16 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Is Doyle still actually on the team?? LOL  Thought he was let go with an injury settlement or something??  I noticed it on Allens X-Mas gift, first time I'd seen his name mentioned in months. 

 

I do think Van Pran Granger , Gouraige (sp?),  VanDemark, and Anderson are all very good backups too.  That was one of the big concerns if any of the starters got hurt, our backups basically were all inexperienced.  At this point all have a year under their belt and cheap contracts.  Beane could consider trading one of them as barring  injury can't see any of them getting on the field over the life of their rookie contract.

 

Mike Edwards is our very large human on the practice squad 6-5 363, he must be fun for our Interior DL when they have reps against the scout team.

[Thrivefourfive]

22 hours ago, BillsFan619 said:

Me and @NewEra started a good convo in the “Ty Johnson wife’s sign” thread that I thought would be a good thread on its own.

 

NewEra said, “Our depth at the (RB) position is fierce. As is WR, TE and OL…while we may be lacking top tier talent across the board, our offensive depth is impressive.  Beating KC without our last 2 1st rd picks,  both playmakers, is a testament to that.”

I said “We have such good to really good offensive players that it allows each player to play in the number role (ie- TE2, WR3, RB1) that they’ll do best in, be most effective in and be most dangerous in. We have it with Kincaid and Knox. We have it with our WRs, which was one reason I’m so glad we got Cooper. And, we have it with our RBs as well.”

 

Gabe Davis is a great example of this in a previous offense. He was a great WR3, but then struggled to become a great WR2 after (he wasn’t a bad WR2).

 

This year though, we have it at every weapon position: WR, TE and RB. This is one reason our offense is so dangerous and playoff ready.

 

Props to Beane and McD especially with what they had to work with cap-wise. Bring on the playoffs!

 

Go Bills!

This. It’s becoming clear to the league too. This is a very new situation we’re are in this year. 1. It would not be happening with Diggs here. No matter what behavior he’s on. And 2. It’s a big reason why the Bills will win the Super Bowl this season.

 

How many of you have been saying for years— “”Screw defense, We need to outscore ‘’em!!””

 

We are here, folks

[colin]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean it is both of those. There is more randomness than most fans like to admit. But you are absolutely right that the way to reduce the variance is to have as many elite difference makers as possible and the Bills haven't had enough of them around Allen. Some of that is on their talent evaluation and acquisition and on Beane and to an extent McDermott, some of it is bad luck. Lost their only elite defensive player (Tre White) in 2021 before the playoffs. Brought Von Miller in to be that difference maker in 2022 and lost him before the playoffs that year too. I do think their roster building plan has over emphasised depth and competition at the expense of difference makers though. I think they are trying to pivot on that but we will need to see this roster re-set go into years 2 and 3 to know whether it is successful.

 

the biggest issue for the d is that we are so specific schematically in the back that we don't just draft/sign the most physically gifted guys available (upside is lesser talents like banford, a 6th round pick, and douglas can have solid performances at an uber premium position) so we are just uber dependent on the front four to cause havoc, but since we carry so many DL (seems OL too lately) we have lots of backups and no impact guys.  carter doesn't look good since his injury, ed is up and down, when he's up he's good, and so are groot and von.

 

i really think on real stud DE, if he didn't get hurt, would put the D over the top wrt being good enough to get an extra possession or two for the o and win it all.

[hondo in seattle]

23 hours ago, BillsFan619 said:

Me and @NewEra started a good convo in the “Ty Johnson wife’s sign” thread that I thought would be a good thread on its own.

 

NewEra said, “Our depth at the (RB) position is fierce. As is WR, TE and OL…while we may be lacking top tier talent across the board, our offensive depth is impressive.  Beating KC without our last 2 1st rd picks,  both playmakers, is a testament to that.”

I said “We have such good to really good offensive players that it allows each player to play in the number role (ie- TE2, WR3, RB1) that they’ll do best in, be most effective in and be most dangerous in. We have it with Kincaid and Knox. We have it with our WRs, which was one reason I’m so glad we got Cooper. And, we have it with our RBs as well.”

 

Gabe Davis is a great example of this in a previous offense. He was a great WR3, but then struggled to become a great WR2 after (he wasn’t a bad WR2).

 

This year though, we have it at every weapon position: WR, TE and RB. This is one reason our offense is so dangerous and playoff ready.

 

Props to Beane and McD especially with what they had to work with cap-wise. Bring on the playoffs!

 

Go Bills!

 

I both agree and disagree with the "Props to Beane" sentiment (as a Zen Buddhist, I'm comfortable with paradox).  

 

Beane did do a good job building this roster considering we currently carry $71 million in dead cap (according to OTC).  

 

Then again, Beane is the one who put us $71 million in the hole and that is certainly not worthy of props.  

 

It probably deserves mentioning that we have a One Name offense and mediocre defense.  While we have a lot of depth, we may not have the right starting 11 on defense to win it all.  As GunnerBill and others have noted, Beane is good at finding good role players but is not as adept at finding good playmakers.  

[ProcessTruster]

6 hours ago, Utah John said:

This season has worked for the first time the way Beane wants the roster to be built.  Except for QB, I don't expect any Bills to get post-season honors, although Taron Johnson and maybe one of the OTs could make a case.  But like all the other top players on the team, he's not a superstar.  The Bills are built to have A to A minus starters (no A plus or better, except at QB) and a depth roster with younger players on their rookie contracts, who are learning and will be able to step in.  A plus players cost too much, and the delta between what an A player brings and what an A plus player brings, is not worth the delta in what they both cost.  Also all those A to A minus players bond together since no one has a prima dona mentality.  

 

Beane broke his system when he brought in Von Miller, and it might have worked out except for the injury.  Also trading for Amari Cooper was an unBeane move, but it was worth it because Cooper was cheap in terms of dollars, not bad for a rental.  We'll miss that 3rd rounder though.  Cooper isn't getting targeted because he's drawing defenders to him, and the other receivers and backs are the beneficiaries.

 

It was clear from the start of the McBeane tenure that these two are building a dynasty, a team that can win season after season even if players are injured or lost as FAs, or just let go when their rookie contracts expire.  (The players know what's going on and they're OK because they see how well former Bills get paid by other teams.)

They've done it (ie: built a dynasty).  They have been winning 70% of their games for 5+ f ing years.   Who else has done this?   KC maybe I guess, but whatever. 

 

The Bills are "built to last"; McBeanes trust their process and it has paid off big time.   Screw the ad-dollar-media dollar driven single eiimination "tournament" at the end of the year;  if that's your only definition of success in the NFL, you must be a very sad person.   Get on your hands and knees and be thankful these two guys showed up 7 years ago. 

[ProcessTruster]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea they need a player who dictates on defense. They haven't had one since Tre did the first injury. When he was in his prime the Bills could dictate where they wanted the ball to go because teams didn't want to test White often even when he was one on one. We don't have anyone in the secondary or up front who affects gameplans like that these days. 

Other than Bosa, Bosa, Watt, Hendrickson, and a couple others who are locked up, those guys don't exist.    Beane shot the cap on Von and Tre and was rewarded for going off script and off cap with expensive, injured, probably washed $50m cap hits.   

 

So stop with the "we need Bosa" stuff, we have him but he's on offense.  

 

Lets go break the scoreboard and win that way.  Works for me.  

[eball]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea they need a player who dictates on defense. They haven't had one since Tre did the first injury. When he was in his prime the Bills could dictate where they wanted the ball to go because teams didn't want to test White often even when he was one on one. We don't have anyone in the secondary or up front who affects gameplans like that these days. 

I really think Rousseau and Benford are starting to become those guys. Wishful thinking? Maybe, but when Rousseau is on he’s a dominant force. 
 

[GunnerBill]

17 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Other than Bosa, Bosa, Watt, Hendrickson, and a couple others who are locked up, those guys don't exist.    Beane shot the cap on Von and Tre and was rewarded for going off script and off cap with expensive, injured, probably washed $50m cap hits.   

 

So stop with the "we need Bosa" stuff, we have him but he's on offense.  

 

Lets go break the scoreboard and win that way.  Works for me.  

 

It doesn't have to be a DL it can be a secondary player who teams are actively scared to throw at. I just don't think we have anyone in that tier right now.

[Nephilim17]

Steve Smith Sr. had some pretty unflattering comments and grades for Keon and says he is "playing out of position" because he is a Z or slot WR and not an X receiver. I don't recall us using him too much in the slot though.

Anyone have the percentages for Keon as to his slot and Z numbers vs X? 

 

 

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

Steve Smith Sr. had some pretty unflattering comments and grades for Keon and says he is "playing out of position" because he is a Z or slot WR and not an X receiver. I don't recall us using him too much in the slot though.

Anyone have the percentages for Keon as to his slot and Z numbers vs X? 

 

 

He was most successful at FSU as a big slot. It makes sense if he wasn’t the best at separating 

[ColoradoBills]

The Bills offense is very unique as others have pointed out.  I for one can agree about a lack of "elite" players.

However, this group seems different to offenses of the past.

 

Playoffs can come down to a couple of plays per game.  We had hoped that players like Diggs would rise up to the occasion.

That didn't work out as planned.

 

It would not surprise me that the "stars" in the playoffs this year can come from any one of these guys.

The D just needs to hang in there long enough to give the O the chance to show us what they can really do.

I'm looking forward to seeing how all this plays out.