Joe Brady has created the NFL version of "Total Football" - it's historic

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

Each year of the mcdermott era 7 other coaches finished as deep or deeper in the playoffs.  He is a solid coach.  He is certainly not a unique irreplaceable coach. 

 

He is quite irreplacable. The Bills have never been as successful in any other era. 

23 minutes ago, I'mBuff said:

The Bills are where they are because of Allen, any other thoughts are delusional.

 

It is you who is delusional if you think everything springs from Josh Allen. He is very important, but no team maintains a culture without leadership. That comes from Sean McDermott. 

[Mikie2times]

9 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Id pump the brakes on this one.  The offense has been great but I am not sure how many of their best plays were a result of the scheme.    I feel like the Bills do a lot off schedule as a result of Josh buying time on scramble drills.   I feel like more than ever Josh is holding the ball for a hell of a long time.

Holy crap, we agree 😂

 

Brady gets an abnormal level of credit for Josh creating. I have no clue what our production is in the scheme itself but it’s not something I feel stands out in some extraordinary way. 

9 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

 

 

It boils down to how much credit you want to give Joe Hines-Brady and how much you want to give Josh.

 

In light of the data, it's unfair to not give Hines-Brady high marks.

 

Even if you want to give more credit to Josh than to Hines-Brady, you have to ask yourself: Why is Josh playing so well, especially compared to how he was playing under Dorsey?

 

Give credit where it's due.

It’s the first time in Allen’s career he has had an OC that wanted him to drive the speed limit instead of 100 miles an hour. Allen never needed a system to be aggressive. He needed a system to force short throws and throws to the RB’s and staying on schedule. That is what Brady deserves credit for the most. He’s harnessed Allen’s talent. 

[Big Turk]

10 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Holy crap, we agree 😂

 

Brady gets an abnormal level of credit for Josh creating. I have no clue what our production is in the scheme itself but it’s not something I feel stands out in some extraordinary way. 

It’s the first time in Allen’s career he has had an OC that wanted him to drive the speed limit instead of 100 miles an hour. Allen never needed a system to be aggressive. He needed a system to force short throws and throws to the RB’s and staying on schedule. That is what Brady deserves credit for the most. He’s harnessed Allen’s talent. 

 

You may not think so, but historically it does. The numbers don't lie.

 

Ranking 2nd all time in terms of points/drive is an absurd level of production for the talent surrounding Allen which typically requires 2-3 other All-Pro/HOF caliber players other than the QB.

 

It would fit perfectly with the "One of these things is not like the others" song from Sesame Street.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Big Turk

[Mikie2times]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

You may not think so, but historically it does. Whether you think it does or not.

 

Ranking 2nd all time in terms of points/drive is an absurd level of production for the talent surrounding Allen.

I don’t think we would be even league average with Sam Darnold (as an example). Give Brady a replacement level QB and he will be fighting to keep his job ( we saw this once before in Carolina and we will again soon like Daboll when he leaves)

[Big Turk]

Just now, Mikie2times said:

I don’t think we would be even league average with Sam Darnold (as an example). Give Brady a replacement level QB and he will be fighting to keep his job ( we saw this once before in Carolina and we will again soon like Daboll when he leaves)

 

That may be, or it may not be. What is very clear is that Allen has never had this level of offensive production before with any other OC or players surrounding him including Diggs.

 

Yes, Allen is a huge part of it, but it's not a stretch to say that Brady has unlocked something in Allen that nobody else has.

[Mikie2times]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

That may be, or it may not be. What is very clear is that Allen has never had this level of offensive production before with any other OC or players surrounding him including Diggs.

 

Yes, Allen is a huge part of it, but it's not a stretch to say that Brady has unlocked something in Allen that nobody else has.

That’s exactly what Brady has done. Everybody tried to shoot three pointers with Josh. To take this freak and see what freakish stuff they could do. Brady said let’s shoot layups. Let’s move the chains. Let’s create as much structure around this player who is as unstructured as any in the game. I agreed with it 1000% and think he deserves a ton of credit for that approach. He’s basically driving a Lambo at 50MPH. I just don’t think what he’s done here is transferable to other situations. We will see. 

[ganesh]

25 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Holy crap, we agree 😂

 

Brady gets an abnormal level of credit for Josh creating. I have no clue what our production is in the scheme itself but it’s not something I feel stands out in some extraordinary way. 

It’s the first time in Allen’s career he has had an OC that wanted him to drive the speed limit instead of 100 miles an hour. Allen never needed a system to be aggressive. He needed a system to force short throws and throws to the RB’s and staying on schedule. That is what Brady deserves credit for the most. He’s harnessed Allen’s talent. 

100% agreed...and it shows up on the stats sheet where the RBs have dominated.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The difference between this and the Dorsey reign is night and day. I also think this thread is hyperbolic nonsense by the way, but Joe Brady is streets ahead of Ken Dorsey as an OC. Brady is a really good offensive mind. Dorsey was just a guy here calling plays. 

 

Josh is the most important man to this offense, of course he is. Quarterback always matters most. But Brady is the second most important.

 

IMO, Dorsey's biggest issue were being new to calling plays and inheriting diminished talent on offense.   He's probably JAG as an OC but he gets WAY too much criticism.  His 2022 offense put up the same yards per play as this 2024 one and rushed for more than a half yard more per attempt.    WITH Rodger Saffold at LG.  

 

Dorsey realized the changes they needed to make prior to his firing and they began implementing them in the Tampa game.   Then McDermott tried to run his defense off the field on the FG attempt against Denver.....lost the game as a result.......and a change absolutely had to be made somewhere.   Brady was the logical choice and I think he's done a fine job.  But the idea that the approach Brady implemented only happened because he got the job is false, IMO.

 

It was obvious even to casual fans that they didn't have the horses outside to be a vertical passing attack.    The improvement of the OL, the maturation of Shakir, Cook and Ty Johnson, the drafting of Kincaid and Coleman in back to back years,  Knox being healthy and the trade for Cooper have given Brady more to work with.

 

But the big thing is Josh Allen has finally embraced taking what the defense gives him.   There were some mind-numbing losses in 2022-2023 just because Allen did something stupid you wouldn't see him do now.  

 

And I am reluctant to give Brady much credit for that because of the utter cluelessness Brady displayed at the end of that Chiefs divisional loss last year.   That and the trick play in Baltimore are among the dumbest GD play calls in key moments I've ever seen by a Bills OC.  I worry that Brady gets stupid and tries to be the hero in big moments that call for more of what's been working.  And perhaps that's due to his HC ambitions.

[ganesh]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

IMO, Dorsey's biggest issue were being new to calling plays and inheriting diminished talent on offense.   He's probably JAG as an OC but he gets WAY too much criticism.  His 2022 offense put up the same yards per play as this 2024 one and rushed for more than a half yard more per attempt.    WITH Rodger Saffold at LG.  

 

Dorsey realized the changes they needed to make prior to his firing and they began implementing them in the Tampa game.   Then McDermott tried to run his defense off the field on the FG attempt against Denver.....lost the game as a result.......and a change absolutely had to be made somewhere.   Brady was the logical choice and I think he's done a fine job.  But the idea that the approach Brady implemented only happened because he got the job is false, IMO.

 

It was obvious even to casual fans that they didn't have the horses outside to be a vertical passing attack.    The improvement of the OL, the maturation of Shakir, Cook and Ty Johnson, the drafting of Kincaid and Coleman in back to back years,  Knox being healthy and the trade for Cooper have given Brady more to work with.

 

But the big thing is Josh Allen has finally embraced taking what the defense gives him.   There were some mind-numbing losses in 2022-2023 just because Allen did something stupid you wouldn't see him do now.  

 

And I am reluctant to give Brady much credit for that because of the utter cluelessness Brady displayed at the end of that Chiefs divisional loss last year.   That and the trick play in Baltimore are among the dumbest GD play calls in key moments I've ever seen by a Bills OC.  I worry that Brady gets stupid and tries to be the hero in big moments that call for more of what's been working.  And perhaps that's due to his HC ambitions.

The difference is in the "scoring".  This Bills offense is a scoring machine.

[transient]

18 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I have to say "Josh is holding the ball a ton" is not a thought I've had this year.

I have thought “Josh looks clean and comfortable in the pocket today” numerous times this year, which is not something I can remember thinking a lot in seasons past. 

[Matt_In_NH]

18 hours ago, Malazan said:

 

Allen is sitting at 2.88 seconds to throw which is 15th in the NFL.

 

2024: 2.88

2023: 2.88

2022: 2.87

2021: 2.9

2020: 3.04

2019: 2.86

2018: 3.22

 

So it seems that your perception may not be reality in this case.

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2024/REG/all#yards

I am actually surprised it is the same as the last three years....I would have thought all the quick screens they have added would bring it down...then again maybe that is my perception because the plays actually work this year.

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Andy Reid has Patrick Mahomes and they haven’t scored 30 points once this season.

 

Remind me who said the Bills WR core this year was the worst in 40 years?

@BullBuchanan

[Big Turk]

15 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The difference between this and the Dorsey reign is night and day. I also think this thread is hyperbolic nonsense by the way, but Joe Brady is streets ahead of Ken Dorsey as an OC. Brady is a really good offensive mind. Dorsey was just a guy here calling plays. 

 

Josh is the most important man to this offense, of course he is. Quarterback always matters most. But Brady is the second most important.

 

In what way?  

 

How is it hyperbolic nonsense when every other team mentioned had either multiple other All-Pro or HOF caliber players on offense surrounding the QB except for this one?

 

The results are the results. There have been a lot of other teams throughout NFL history with similar or better pieces on offense across the board, including the O-Line, outside the QB.  There has never even been anything close to this level of production from them.  Certainly not at a level that puts them only behind what likely was the greatest offensive team in NFL history.

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

IMO, Dorsey's biggest issue were being new to calling plays and inheriting diminished talent on offense.   He's probably JAG as an OC but he gets WAY too much criticism.  His 2022 offense put up the same yards per play as this 2024 one and rushed for more than a half yard more per attempt.    WITH Rodger Saffold at LG.  

 

Dorsey realized the changes they needed to make prior to his firing and they began implementing them in the Tampa game.   Then McDermott tried to run his defense off the field on the FG attempt against Denver.....lost the game as a result.......and a change absolutely had to be made somewhere.   Brady was the logical choice and I think he's done a fine job.  But the idea that the approach Brady implemented only happened because he got the job is false, IMO.

 

It was obvious even to casual fans that they didn't have the horses outside to be a vertical passing attack.    The improvement of the OL, the maturation of Shakir, Cook and Ty Johnson, the drafting of Kincaid and Coleman in back to back years,  Knox being healthy and the trade for Cooper have given Brady more to work with.

 

But the big thing is Josh Allen has finally embraced taking what the defense gives him.   There were some mind-numbing losses in 2022-2023 just because Allen did something stupid you wouldn't see him do now.  

 

And I am reluctant to give Brady much credit for that because of the utter cluelessness Brady displayed at the end of that Chiefs divisional loss last year.   That and the trick play in Baltimore are among the dumbest GD play calls in key moments I've ever seen by a Bills OC.  I worry that Brady gets stupid and tries to be the hero in big moments that call for more of what's been working.  And perhaps that's due to his HC ambitions.

 

Exactly what cluelessness are we talking about?  The Bills had no business even being in that game with a defense that was giving up over 10 yards a play into the 4th quarter, and not only were they in it, they were leading for the majority of that game, and that was due to Brady coming up with an offensive gameplan that held onto the ball, ran it effectively and utilized short passes to control clock and keep the Chiefs off the field.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Andy Reid has Patrick Mahomes and they haven’t scored 30 points once this season.

 

Remind me who said the Bills WR core this year was the worst in 40 years?

 

They have actually scored 30 points exactly twice this season in back to back weeks against TB in OT and Carolina. They haven't scored over 30 points tho.

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Big Turk

[extrahammer]

20 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Joe Brady may very well go down as one of the greatest offensive minds in the history of football. He has done what no other team in the history of the NFL has done...become prolific in a historical context with no true #1 WR, no 1,000 yard WR and no 1,000 yard rusher thru 16 games.

 

Essentially, he has created the NFL version of "Total Football" that was pioneered by The Netherlands with their great "Orange Crush" teams of the 1970s with Johann Cruyff as their star. Anybody can be the "go to guy" in any given week, and anyone can make the key play.  You cannot simply "take away" one player, the Bills offense is diversified in a way that no other offense has been in the history of the NFL. Just like on those Netherland teams, they don't have true "positions" as thought of by other teams. People are lining up all over the place to create matchups that favor the BIlls dependent on who they are playing.

 

Think I am going too far?  I am not. Consider:

 

1. Points per drive. The 2024 Bills are averaging 3.12 points/drive - In the history of the NFL, only the 2007 Patriots have averaged more at 3.19.  The only other teams above 3 are the 2018 Chiefs, the 2013 Broncos and the 2001 Rams.  All of them featured multiple stars and HOF players.  We are essentially doing what the most prolific offenses in NFL history have done without the supporting casts to do it.
2. 2024 Bills tied an all-time NFL record with 8 straight 30+ point games.
3. 2024 Bills tied an all-time NFL record with 13 different players catching a TD pass.
4. 2024 Bills set a franchise record for most points and TDs in a season and have the highest points per game at 31.8 thru 16 games
5. Josh Allen leads the NFL in EPA/play
6. 2024 Bills set a franchise record for 40+ point games with 4
7. 2024 Bills set a franchise record for 30+ point games with 12

 

Brady is the very definition of doing more with less and doing it in ways where no one person can be keyed on by the defense, meaning they have to be prepared for anyone to beat them at anytime.  This was never more apparent than during the Lions game when Ty Johnson, a 3rd down RB was our leading receiver with over 100 yards, our "#1 WR" Amari Cooper wasn't even targeted and the Bills rolled up 559 yards of offense and 48 points and were so unstoppable that it forced the opposing coach to try a desperation onside kick with 12 minutes to go in the 4th quarter only down 10 points.

 

I am not sure there has ever been a better job done at OC in NFL history considering what Brady had to work with and how he fit together his gameplans to attack the opposing teams weaknesses and create an ever shifting target for who they would try to stop on offense.  The level of absurdity with how good this offense has been with a bunch of "no names" for the most part on it is absurd.  Patently absurd. If Brady does not win assistant coach of the year in the NFL, they should just throw the award away because it has no meaning.

 

I like reading your analysis and I didn't realize a lot of this, but have felt this season was different and really special. But I'm also a greedy ahole and wish we could do something to keep Brady for a few years. He and Josh are on the same sentence same page, very good chemistry. 

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, extrahammer said:

 

I like reading your analysis and I didn't realize a lot of this, but have felt this season was different and really special. But I'm also a greedy ahole and wish we could do something to keep Brady for a few years. He and Josh are on the same sentence same page, very good chemistry. 

 

We can keep Brady...if we hire him as our HC.  That's the only way.

[GunnerBill]

32 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

In what way?  

 

How is it hyperbolic nonsense when every other team mentioned had either multiple other All-Pro or HOF caliber players on offense surrounding the QB except for this one?

 

 

Total Football was a complete re-imagining of the way the game was played. It was true innovation. I'm a Joe Brady fan. I supported the hire, I said repeatedly I think he has a smart offensive mind and that I was optimistic about a full season of him running the offense. But he hasn't re-imagine offensive football. He hasn't changed the way that teams play. He's just done a really good job of putting players in positions to make plays and unlike Dorsey hasn't tried to force a system that the players can't execute upon them. He uses guys according to their skills and doesn't force square pegs into round holes. I give him a ton of credit. Comparing him to Rinus Michels is hyperbolic nonsense though. 

[The Jokeman]

He's made the offense more complete which is what McDermott has been calling for years. Our running game with Cook and Johnson is at it's best in the Josh era and think is a big reason this team could be different than previous failures. That said the defense has to hold up too. 

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

The difference is in the "scoring".  This Bills offense is a scoring machine.

 

That's the result, not the reason.   

 

Reason #1(by a lot) is a much improved Josh Allen.........which I attribute to experience, not the scheme or even the better talent on the OL and a deeper selection of playmakers.  Subsequently they've had a whopping 19 less turnovers than 2022.  

 

The 2022 season was the most trying in Bills history.   Dorsey didn't get enough credit for what he did.  In part because we all want to forget how the season ended because the QB was having domestic issues.  

 

In 2023, despite a terrible performance by Allen in the opener, they were off to a great start offensively but McDermott's struggles calling the defense caused pot holes in the road and necessitated "complementary football".   Like I said,  that was coming whether Dorsey got fired or not.   Whether Dorsey would have done as well with it is anyone's guess.   What I can tell you is that 4.6 yards per rush is a far cry from the 5.2 they were putting up in 2022.   Other than the horrible decisions in big moments by Brady,  the only other complaint I have with him are the myriad of predictable, wasted run plays.

[Big Turk]

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

That's the result, not the reason.   

 

Reason #1(by a lot) is a much improved Josh Allen.........which I attribute to experience, not the scheme or even the better talent on the OL and a deeper selection of playmakers.  Subsequently they've had a whopping 19 less turnovers than 2022.  

 

The 2022 season was the most trying in Bills history.   Dorsey didn't get enough credit for what he did.  In part because we all want to forget how the season ended because the QB was having domestic issues.  

 

In 2023, despite a terrible performance by Allen in the opener, they were off to a great start offensively but McDermott's struggles calling the defense caused pot holes in the road and necessitated "complementary football".   Like I said,  that was coming whether Dorsey got fired or not.   Whether Dorsey would have done as well with it is anyone's guess.   What I can tell you is that 4.6 yards per rush is a far cry from the 5.2 they were putting up in 2022.   Other than the horrible decisions in big moments by Brady,  the only other complaint I have with him are the myriad of predictable, wasted run plays.

 

Dorsey was directly responsible for a lot of  the turnover issues because his spacing for routes was so terrible, receivers ended up too close to each other which meant more defenders were in the area for passes being thrown. Something not talked about enough but shown repeatedly by Cover 1's film breakdowns.  It wasn't magical that Allen's turnovers died down dramatically once Brady got here.

[BADOLBILZ]

38 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Total Football was a complete re-imagining of the way the game was played. It was true innovation. I'm a Joe Brady fan. I supported the hire, I said repeatedly I think he has a smart offensive mind and that I was optimistic about a full season of him running the offense. But he hasn't re-imagine offensive football. He hasn't changed the way that teams play. He's just done a really good job of putting players in positions to make plays and unlike Dorsey hasn't tried to force a system that the players can't execute upon them. He uses guys according to their skills and doesn't force square pegs into round holes. I give him a ton of credit. Comparing him to Rinus Michels is hyperbolic nonsense though. 

 

 

That take would make complete sense if Dorsey had a good selection of pegs entering 2023.   He did not.   Gabe Davis was a banana peel waiting to be slipped on regardless of how you used him.   Dawson Knox was injured and dropped critical passes in the Patriots loss and the near loss to the Giants.   Kincaid was a rookie.  He damn sure got the most out of Diggs, didn't he?   The hate for Dorsey simply doesn't track when you look at what he had to work with situationally and talent-wise.

 

But ultimately, yeah, Brady is getting more hype than he's earned, IMO.   He had a GREAT day in Detroit.  He clearly had been composing that gameplan to try to out-gun Ben Johnson for quite some time before hand.   Otherwise I haven't seen great OC work so much as great stewardship of a complementary football offense by Allen.  I've seen a QB that realized he threw away the season on Brady's idiotic 2nd and 9 call(1st read being a 30 air yard throw to a slot receiver that would have been a huge failure strategically even in the unlikely event that it was even completed) at the end of the divisional game last year.   Allen has been a totally different decision maker since.