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Joe Brady has created the NFL version of "Total Football" - it's historic


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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Where did I blame Brady for choosing the players?   I said "the Bills" thought Hollins could be a starting boundary WR.   Beane left him short on the boundary.  But Brady still dialed up those hopeless deep shots.   That's not the definition of "optimizing".  

 

You are trying to get into your nonsense I passed on addressing where you claim that the Bills had no receiving options beside Keon Coleman entering the season.   OK then.  They had a proven slot in Shakir,  they had a proven producer in Samuel, we knew Cook and Johnson were productive in the passing game at that point and Kincaid and Knox were both legit NFL TE's.   It wasn't that long ago that Lil' Dummy was their 4th best option in the passing game for Dorsey behind Diggs/Davis/Knox.   That's 3 guys with BAD hands and Diggs.  They had WAY more depth than that entering this season.   They just lacked the all important difference makers on the boundary.   

A proven slot? Shakir had like 8 good games and 600 yards in 2023.


You have probably 100 posts calling this the most unproven WR group in the last 50 years all offseason. Now Shakir was this proven slot commodity. Incredible.


 

FWIW, Shakir missed the Houston game when Mack got those deep shots. Him and Coleman were basically all we had that game. So yeah, had to throw to somebody. Probably saved the season because Beane woke up to the fact that the WR group was garbage. 

Edited by FireChans
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

This is the real point imo

 

You'd have to be absolutely clueless to NOT run a successful offense here. Allen can handle just about anything at this point...his ability to adapt to various systems is an underrated part of his game

100% agree. Case in point, no one can ever agree if any OC is good because Josh Allen is that dude and we end up ranking really well regardless.

 

I will just say the biggest thing an OC can do with Josh is not get in their own way. @BADOLBILZ is right that Daboll did sometimes. Dorsey did too imo. And we all remember Brady’s NIGHTMARISH trick play vs the Ravens. 
 

But tbh I’m encouraged that Brady is the best of the bunch, whether that’s only a slight difference or not. 

Edited by FireChans
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Posted
On 12/30/2024 at 12:34 PM, Big Turk said:

Joe Brady may very well go down as one of the greatest offensive minds in the history of football. He has done what no other team in the history of the NFL has done...become prolific in a historical context with no true #1 WR, no 1,000 yard WR and no 1,000 yard rusher thru 16 games.

 

Essentially, he has created the NFL version of "Total Football" that was pioneered by The Netherlands with their great "Orange Crush" teams of the 1970s with Johann Cruyff as their star. Anybody can be the "go to guy" in any given week, and anyone can make the key play.  You cannot simply "take away" one player, the Bills offense is diversified in a way that no other offense has been in the history of the NFL. Just like on those Netherland teams, they don't have true "positions" as thought of by other teams. People are lining up all over the place to create matchups that favor the BIlls dependent on who they are playing.

 

Think I am going too far?  I am not. Consider:

 

  1. Points per drive. The 2024 Bills are averaging 3.12 points/drive - In the history of the NFL, only the 2007 Patriots have averaged more at 3.19.  The only other teams above 3 are the 2018 Chiefs, the 2013 Broncos and the 2001 Rams.  All of them featured multiple stars and HOF players.  We are essentially doing what the most prolific offenses in NFL history have done without the supporting casts to do it.
  2. 2024 Bills tied an all-time NFL record with 8 straight 30+ point games.
  3. 2024 Bills tied an all-time NFL record with 13 different players catching a TD pass.
  4. 2024 Bills set a franchise record for most points and TDs in a season and have the highest points per game at 31.8 thru 16 games
  5. Josh Allen leads the NFL in EPA/play
  6. 2024 Bills set a franchise record for 40+ point games with 4
  7. 2024 Bills set a franchise record for 30+ point games with 12

 

Brady is the very definition of doing more with less and doing it in ways where no one person can be keyed on by the defense, meaning they have to be prepared for anyone to beat them at anytime.  This was never more apparent than during the Lions game when Ty Johnson, a 3rd down RB was our leading receiver with over 100 yards, our "#1 WR" Amari Cooper wasn't even targeted and the Bills rolled up 559 yards of offense and 48 points and were so unstoppable that it forced the opposing coach to try a desperation onside kick with 12 minutes to go in the 4th quarter only down 10 points.

 

I am not sure there has ever been a better job done at OC in NFL history considering what Brady had to work with and how he fit together his gameplans to attack the opposing teams weaknesses and create an ever shifting target for who they would try to stop on offense.  The level of absurdity with how good this offense has been with a bunch of "no names" for the most part on it is absurd.  Patently absurd. If Brady does not win assistant coach of the year in the NFL, they should just throw the award away because it has no meaning.


there’s a reason why he’s the favorite at some of these job openings.

 

an organization is going to get a great young HC.

 

hard not to like Joe

Posted
3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So Ty Johnson and Cook I agree with.    Shakir optimized?  VERY debatable.  Kincaid, Knox, Samuel, Coleman, Cooper were clearly NOT optimized.  So not buying the optimization claim.

 

On Mack Hollins.........he is basically the same player he's always been IMO.   The Bills clearly initially thought they were going to be able to skate by with him outside......but he and Allen couldn't connect on the deep ball (did you forget that frustration early in the season?).   So I wouldn't say he optimized Hollins he just had to minimize his route tree after the Baltimore/Houston debacles forced the Cooper trade.

 

That said, Hollins brings something that Davis did not.   Most of the people on here don't go to camp so they didn't see the Bills always trying to develop Gabe into a big slot WR every camp.   Then they would try it in preseason and it wouldn't work and they'd give up.  In fact, the first time Allen and Davis took the field in a preseason game in 2023 he tried a quick slant to Gabe to start the first series, it hit him square in stride on the hands and bounced off for an INT.   And that was it for 2023.  Hollins is pretty useless deep but fits better in the tight formations because he's actually playable in the middle of the field.  Gabe was NOT.   Like I said, Gabe was a banana peel just waiting to be slipped on by any OC.  SO overrated.   The numbers don't lie.......when he was targeted Allen struggled.   His departure has been at least as much of a positive than the oft-talked up Diggs departure.

 

As for the constraints on Dorsey........it was real.  @GunnerBill claims that Dorsey was trying to fit square pegs into a round hole.  But he didn't choose the pegs.  McBeane were invested in Diggs and Davis and they didn't fit the "complementary football" approach that was suddenly necessary with McDermott's struggling defense(beginning in London).   The 3 prior games they averaged 38 points.  Diggs was trending toward a career year.  

 

But there were broad changes in how most teams were defensing explosive teams by mid-season last year.  It caused an offensive production drop around the league.  Brady didn't create the wheel he expanded on an adaptation that had already started in the Tampa game.   IMO they didn't do the same the next week against Denver because they thought it was going to be an easy W and perhaps wanted to save it for the Jets game.   But then McD cost them that Denver game.   It comes off to some like I am saying Dorsey was unfairly fired.   That's not the case.  My opinion of he and Brady was that they would be pretty interchangeable and the team needed a shakeup.  But it's not like Dorsey was terrible for half of a season.   It's an untrue narrative.  

 

Unironically fascinating to read. Each paragraph of this post contains at least one incisive and contextualized claim that I find compelling, and also at least one subjective and/or selective take that I find unnecessarily polarized. I'm nodding and frowning intermittently.  

 

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Posted
16 minutes ago, McBean said:


there’s a reason why he’s the favorite at some of these job openings.

 

an organization is going to get a great young HC.

 

hard not to like Joe

 

And he wears a chain like a gangsta so he will fit in with the players 🤣

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Posted
18 minutes ago, FireChans said:

100% agree. Case in point, no one can ever agree if any OC is good because Josh Allen is that dude and we end up ranking really well regardless.

 

I will just say the biggest thing an OC can do with Josh is not get in their own way. @BADOLBILZ is right that Daboll did sometimes. Dorsey did too imo. And we all remember Brady’s NIGHTMARISH trick play vs the Ravens. 
 

But tbh I’m encouraged that Brady is the best of the bunch, whether that’s only a slight difference or not. 

Yup fair

Posted

I think one of the most important things I have heard Josh say about Brady that I don’t hear all that often or maybe have never heard is that Brady talks to Josh about which plays he likes the best. 
 

Then he has Josh or himself talk to each receiver and running back about which plays they like to run the best and then he uses all of those for different situations in the game. 

Which makes a lot more sense than having them run plays they don’t like running or the players don’t think will work. Or having a coordinator try and force running certain plays that aren’t working or doing the same thing over and over again and the players not liking it. 
 

Helps the trust with the coaches and players more. 
 

You would think more coaches would do this. I’m sure teams obviously have discussions but I’m sure most places the OC runs whatever he wants whether his players like it or not which doesn’t seem to be the case with Brady. 

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Posted
6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yeah, it started out apparently breaking his left hand in the opener falling after running for a TD(I think that was the leap over Baker).  

 

He got BLASTED on that terrible trick play in Baltimore.  Clearly concussed and we were fortunate he didn't suffer an arm injury as well.  

 

He got BLASTED and appeared completely unconscious after another one of his worst all time hits in Houston the next week.   

 

Hit extremely hard and high while prone after the throw on the sideline numerous times in the Rams/Lions weeks...........had to go for X-Rays on his shoulder after the Lions game.

 

Those are the big one's that come immediately to mind.   We are used to the 100+ carries now......and take it for granted even though we shouldn't.  But it had been a while since he had anything that looked like an obvious concussion and he had 2 this year.  Since the 2019 home game against NE, to be exact.    

Really only the trick play stands out as on Brady. As noted he is running and getting hit less as tracked by PFR. I agree he’s had some nasty hits.

 

I think your story for Brady getting Josh hurt had more merit last year if I remember. He’s using Josh way less than that as this season is one of the lowest contact. So many of these hits are out of Brady’s control. He calls the play (and yeah the Baltimore one was a terrible one) but he can’t protect Josh from the booth if Josh puts on the cape (again this is happening less often).

 

Maybe there’s a per snap part to it cause all volume stats are sorta thrown by the ~1 game less in snaps Josh has played. 

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FireChans said:

A proven slot? Shakir had like 8 good games and 600 yards in 2023.


You have probably 100 posts calling this the most unproven WR group in the last 50 years all offseason. Now Shakir was this proven slot commodity. Incredible.


 

FWIW, Shakir missed the Houston game when Mack got those deep shots. Him and Coleman were basically all we had that game. So yeah, had to throw to somebody. Probably saved the season because Beane woke up to the fact that the WR group was garbage. 

 

Nah you are full of sh!t.   It's all in writing here on TSW. 

 

What I said in that thread is that the WR group they had entering the season was the first such Bills WR corps since the 1980's that didn't have a single player who had even produced a 900 yard season in their career.   The point being that they lacked WR1-WR2 type receiving talent.  But they had multiple WR3 type options and an abundance of good receiving TE's and RB's.   And yes, a 600 yard season from a 3rd option slot guy who lead the league in catch % and had a very high ypc was proven, IMO.   I literally predicted Shakir would lead the team in receiving with around 900 yards so I was always sure he'd be good.   The other prediction I made was that Beane would be desperately trying to trade for a WR1 in October.   Not at the trade deadline in November.  Earlier.  At the risk of sounding like alphalamp......I nailed it. 

 

And FWIW.......Shakir was a slot receiver not a boundary.  Him not being there didn't make it a requirement that they throw Hollins deep shots.  But yeah, that was the game where it became abundantly clear that they had to fix the boundary or opponents were just going to cheat up the safeties and flood the middle of the field and take away the Bills deep cast of inside and short-to-intermediate options.

Edited by BADOLBILZ
Posted
On 12/30/2024 at 3:06 PM, Bockeye said:

I tend to agree, but 8 straight games of 30+ points per game along with 3.12 points/drive is astoundingly good.  I’m fine with his passing and running calls.  How the heck can we do much better??

So the below stats are wrong then??  Brady and Manning in their prime were putting up more points per drive? Had way more than 8 30+ point games.  Just trying to square this.  

 

The 2024 Bills are averaging 3.12 points/drive - In the history of the NFL, only the 2007 Patriots have averaged more at 3.19.  The only other teams above 3 are the 2018 Chiefs, the 2013 Broncos and the 2001 Rams.  

No one said the stats were wrong. What value the stats have is definitely open to interpretation however. Point per game is an inflationary statistic, with teams scoring 10% more points per game than they did 20 year ago. If you add 10% to the scoring offenses in the year 2000, we'd have the fourth highest scoring offense that year.

Posted
6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Look, you thought Brian Daboll was a great offensive mind.  And you had the same attitude towards my opinion then when I told you that you were wrong about that.  

 

Dismissive.  You knew better.  

 

Wrong. :lol: 

 

Even @dave mcbride finally had to admit I was right and he was a Dabolliever like you.

 

And as I told you years ago.......I was not a Ken Dorsey fan at Miami....he was a limiting factor on a great team.   The only things I liked about his hiring was the continuity for Allen and the fact that he wasn't the wicky-wacky,  3-points-against-Jacksonville Daboll.   And I was not one of the many people worried about Dorsey leaving for a HC job when the offense was putting up gaudy numbers in 2022.

 

And I'm fine with Brady when he isn't botching a big moment........but AGAIN........not one of the people worried about Joe Brady leaving to be a HC either.  

 

You don't like both interchangeable?   Ok then, both replaceable.

 

This is motherf*cking Josh Allen's offense.  

 

Has it been mentioned before that Allen is the guy you didn't think was going to make it as an NFL QB?   If I took your position of presuming bias I guess I'd say you give too much credit to the OC because you can't accept just how bad your take on Allen was. ;)

 

Of course this is Josh Allen's offense. There is no disputing that. But of the three OCs they have had supporting him in that endevour there is zero point zero per cent doubt that Dorsey was the least able. To keep taking shots at the other two while defending Dorsey's modern day iteration of the chuck and duck is baffling. He is likely about to be fired from his second OC job in just over a year within the next fortnight.

 

I am not worried about Brady getting a Head Coach job. It is going to happen at some point. Just an inevitability. I don't think there is an internal candidate ready to jump in this time, so they'll have to hire from outside. My only worry would be them picking the wrong guy again. Like they did with Dorsey.

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Posted
7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Of course this is Josh Allen's offense. There is no disputing that. But of the three OCs they have had supporting him in that endevour there is zero point zero per cent doubt that Dorsey was the least able. To keep taking shots at the other two while defending Dorsey's modern day iteration of the chuck and duck is baffling. He is likely about to be fired from his second OC job in just over a year within the next fortnight.

 

I am not worried about Brady getting a Head Coach job. It is going to happen at some point. Just an inevitability. I don't think there is an internal candidate ready to jump in this time, so they'll have to hire from outside. My only worry would be them picking the wrong guy again. Like they did with Dorsey.

 

That's right, it IS Josh Allen's offense.   That's why it worked well enough in 2021 to get into the playoffs despite often terrible regular season coaching by Daboll.   That's why it was even better in 2022 with a rookie OC and less WR talent.  

 

And that's why it's working so well now with a QB who has finally reached the intersection of know-how and can-do.   

 

But yeah keep avoiding the part where you were dead wrong about Daboll and dead-a$$ wrong about Josh Allen.  There is no way your opinion could be wrong. :rolleyes:

 

So your opinion is that Dorsey might get fired and that means something?  I forget........how many NFL OC jobs was Daboll fired from before he got exiled to a decade of coaching TE's and coaching in the college ranks before he joined the Bills?   How many years did Daboll last at each of those OC jobs he was canned from?   How many times did you make excuses to me about all of those firings which would totally apply to Ken Dorsey in Cleveland now if someone wanted to make them?  

 

And oh yeah.....how did Joe Brady become available to become the Bills QB coach again?   Wasn't it a mid-season sh!t-canning as Carolina OC?  Yeah it was, wasn't it?

 

You'd think you'd have learned by now not to be so stubborn.  I've literally said Dorsey was replacement level.   I never hailed him like you did Daboll.  He also guided the offense thru the most trying season in Bills history and his "chuck-and-duck" offense produced 5.2 ypc that season compared to Brady's 4.6 this season despite being hailed as a run game innovator.   

 

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Really only the trick play stands out as on Brady. As noted he is running and getting hit less as tracked by PFR. I agree he’s had some nasty hits.

 

I think your story for Brady getting Josh hurt had more merit last year if I remember. He’s using Josh way less than that as this season is one of the lowest contact. So many of these hits are out of Brady’s control. He calls the play (and yeah the Baltimore one was a terrible one) but he can’t protect Josh from the booth if Josh puts on the cape (again this is happening less often).

 

Maybe there’s a per snap part to it cause all volume stats are sorta thrown by the ~1 game less in snaps Josh has played. 

 

After Brady took over last year,  Allen ran the ball 9.2 times per game thereafter.   That is ridiculous and I think that's the argument you are talking about.   

 

But that's just over-use.  That's "well that might shorten the back end of his career" stuff.

 

What happened to Allen this year has been real abuse.   That is "those kind of hits could break a career".   There has been some hyperbole in the past about the wear and tear being like Cam Newton's time in Carolina........but up until this year Allen hadn't taken the kind of massive hits that wrecked Cam's shoulder and derailed his career.   Those happened this year.  

 

And keep in context what I was responding to.   If you are going to claim that something is the "direct responsibility" of a coach then it works both ways.

 

THE signature play in the Bills offense in 2024 is Josh Allen not finding an open receiver on the called play.........rolling right(often from a clean pocket).........and then taking a huge hit as he throws a deep ball at the last second, nearly AT the sideline,  across his body or down the sideline.    That's definitely IT.   That's the signature play of the Joe Brady 2024 offense.  The trick play was like a weird attempt to manufacture that intentionally.    And if Brady is getting credit for this offense then he needs to be responsible for those kind of huge hits happening.  

 

 

Edited by BADOLBILZ
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Posted
12 hours ago, FireChans said:

100% agree. Case in point, no one can ever agree if any OC is good because Josh Allen is that dude and we end up ranking really well regardless.

 

I will just say the biggest thing an OC can do with Josh is not get in their own way. @BADOLBILZ is right that Daboll did sometimes. Dorsey did too imo. And we all remember Brady’s NIGHTMARISH trick play vs the Ravens. 
 

But tbh I’m encouraged that Brady is the best of the bunch, whether that’s only a slight difference or not. 

 

 

Yeah, I am fine with that even if it is really more recency bias than reality.   I loved the Brady hiring as QB coach.   I presumed if that dumbass Daboll could get a HC job riding on Allen's back that Dorsey might get one as well and then Brady would be there to take over as OC.   So I had no problem changing them out.   I couldn't care less about what's fair if the alternative isn't worse.   I had zero concerns about how much some observers HATED Brady's offense in Carolina.   Josh Allen is going to make you look smart.  But Brady was absolutely trashed by the end in Carolina......mainly because he couldn't run the football despite an OL that was built to run the football.   And the funny thing is that in his full season before he got fired the offense basically ran exclusively thru 3 WR.  Two put up over 1,000 yards and Samuel put up 800.   So the people like @Big Turk who think that Brady is the father of "total football" or "everybody eats" are totally clueless about Brady's background.   If they had AJ Brown and Devonta Smith on the outside they'd be feeding them.  

 

 

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Posted
20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

After Brady took over last year,  Allen ran the ball 9.2 times per game thereafter.   That is ridiculous and I think that's the argument you are talking about.   

 

But that's just over-use.  That's "well that might shorten the back end of his career" stuff.

 

What happened to Allen this year has been real abuse.   That is "those kind of hits could break a career".   There has been some hyperbole in the past about the wear and tear being like Cam Newton's time in Carolina........but up until this year Allen hadn't taken the kind of massive hits that wrecked Cam's shoulder and derailed his career.   Those happened this year.  

 

And keep in context what I was responding to.   If you are going to claim that something is the "direct responsibility" of a coach then it works both ways.

 

THE signature play in the Bills offense in 2024 is Josh Allen not finding an open receiver on the called play.........rolling right(often from a clean pocket).........and then taking a huge hit as he throws a deep ball at the last second, nearly AT the sideline,  across his body or down the sideline.    That's definitely IT.   That's the signature play of the Joe Brady 2024 offense.  The trick play was like a weird attempt to manufacture that intentionally.    And if Brady is getting credit for this offense then he needs to be responsible for those kind of huge hits happening.  

 

 

Not debating if the offense is working or not but that’s the signature play of Josh not just 2024. Thus the blame is not on Brady for getting him hit. It’s Josh going to the well a bit too much with refs not calling RTP enough. The data from your argument last year was persuasive (as I still remember it) but I don’t agree with the logic for this year on Brady getting Josh hurt. I appreciate your takes. Keep em coming. 

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Posted
7 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Not debating if the offense is working or not but that’s the signature play of Josh not just 2024. Thus the blame is not on Brady for getting him hit. It’s Josh going to the well a bit too much with refs not calling RTP enough. The data from your argument last year was persuasive (as I still remember it) but I don’t agree with the logic for this year on Brady getting Josh hurt. I appreciate your takes. Keep em coming. 

 

 

Which........gets back to my point.   It's Josh Allen's offense.

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/joe-brady-this-is-josh-allen-s-offense-buffalo-bills

 

I'm not bashing Brady.  I think he's done a good job with what he has.   Which is a different and better cast......and a better version of Josh Allen.......than what his predecessor had.  I take issue with some really terrible decisions in key moments and perhaps forcing the run game in response to his critics at his last gig.   But he and Dorsey are young OC's and if you expect a lot better.......well, perhaps aside from Ben Johnson,  those kind of guys are calling plays from the HC position elsewhere.  

 

I'm merely pushing back against the hyperbolic nonsense that this thread was built upon.  

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Posted
1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

That's right, it IS Josh Allen's offense.   That's why it worked well enough in 2021 to get into the playoffs despite often terrible regular season coaching by Daboll.   That's why it was even better in 2022 with a rookie OC and less WR talent.  

 

And that's why it's working so well now with a QB who has finally reached the intersection of know-how and can-do.   

 

But yeah keep avoiding the part where you were dead wrong about Daboll and dead-a$$ wrong about Josh Allen.  There is no way your opinion could be wrong. :rolleyes:

 

So your opinion is that Dorsey might get fired and that means something?  I forget........how many NFL OC jobs was Daboll fired from before he got exiled to a decade of coaching TE's and coaching in the college ranks before he joined the Bills?   How many years did Daboll last at each of those OC jobs he was canned from?   How many times did you make excuses to me about all of those firings which would totally apply to Ken Dorsey in Cleveland now if someone wanted to make them?  

 

And oh yeah.....how did Joe Brady become available to become the Bills QB coach again?   Wasn't it a mid-season sh!t-canning as Carolina OC?  Yeah it was, wasn't it?

 

You'd think you'd have learned by now not to be so stubborn.  I've literally said Dorsey was replacement level.   I never hailed him like you did Daboll.  He also guided the offense thru the most trying season in Bills history and his "chuck-and-duck" offense produced 5.2 ypc that season compared to Brady's 4.6 this season despite being hailed as a run game innovator.   

 

 

I have not ignored my opinion about Josh being wrong. Not ever. It is fully accepted. As for Daboll.... I didn't hail him as a genius. I said he was a good offensive coordinator here. He was. So is Brady. Dorsey wasn't horrible, he started quite promisingly. But it went downhill fast.

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