Controversial opinion: Elam was pretty solid

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

22 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

The second call was not tight.  Say what you want but he does not play consistently well.  He plays well sometimes and is out of position on others. Benford is simply a better player. 

 

Elam was in classic DPI positioning for the 2nd call (didn't even attempt to turn his head and was between the WR and the throw). 

 

However, it was a terrible throw and I don't think their was enough contact by Elam on the WR to say that Elam materially restricted the WR chance to catch the ball. The WR jumps as he's moving towards the back of the endzone and his own momentum is taking him away from the ball. Elam barely contacts him.

 

If the WR had stopped and jumped towards the ball (into Elam) then it's 100% a DPI. 

[Kelly to Allen]

Elam is fine. He's cb2 next year regardless of the weird opinions on him. I still think we'll obviously draft a cb maybe 2 tho in the draft 

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

However, it was a terrible throw and I don't think their was enough contact by Elam on the WR to say that Elam materially restricted the WR chance to catch the ball. The WR jumps as he's moving towards the back of the endzone and his own momentum is taking him away from the ball. Elam barely contacts him.

 

I got the exact same feeling on that one but they never showed a replay from a good angle to confirm it.

The shot from teh endzone pylon would have shown us I think, but they never queued it up.

[Magox]

On 12/22/2024 at 8:00 PM, Success said:

I thought the PI's on him were fairly questionable.  One thing he didn't do - lose his guy.  

 

He was no deer in the headlights out there. Too handsy?  You can make the case on that - but I thought the refs called it more than tight.

 

Sort of reminds me of McKelvin, he was always right there step for step but he was never looking back at the ball so even though he was in the near vicinity he rarely was able to make a play on the ball or bat it down.

 

He is a bit too handsy and lacks the proper technique to be in a position to both stay with the receiver and to be able to look back at the ball.

 

If you can’t look back at the ball as often as he does then he will continue to get penalties called against him.

[Charles Romes]

After watching the D get gashed by the Rams fully healthy, then the lions and pats, it’s we need to take risks and put as much high end talent on the field. Elam has a higher ceiling than anyone in the CB room and should play to give the team a chance.  

[bigduke6]

unfortunately Elam already has the stink of PI/being "handsy" all over him.  something hes going to struggle against mightily with the refs until he puts out a season of not being handsy.  sucks.   the woman ref was calling everything vs the Pats,  even the stuff that wasnt there.

[The Frankish Reich]

FWIW, PFF has Elam at a perfectly respectable 68 rating.

 

Handsy and caught doing it? Sure. But a penalty is often no worse than a catch allowed. And sometimes a whole lot better: a penalty in the end zone that prevents a score is a lot better than giving up a TD catch.

[notpolian]

40 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Elam is fine. He's cb2 next year regardless of the weird opinions on him. I still think we'll obviously draft a cb maybe 2 tho in the draft 

I sorta doubt this will happen, but we'll see.  IMO, if he was going to be the future CB2, he would have been active for all games this year.  When everyone is healthy, he often gets scratched.  Maybe the coaches just don't want him on special teams if he is a backup CB, but it's still weird to me.

 

He's a really good athlete but he just doesn't get his head around consistently when the ball is in the air.  Ball awareness is a good term I suppose.  There are many people playing college football that are just like this.  Elam seems to not be able to make that step. If you don't, you can't play in the NFL.

[Kelly to Allen]

22 minutes ago, notpolian said:

I sorta doubt this will happen, but we'll see.  IMO, if he was going to be the future CB2, he would have been active for all games this year.  When everyone is healthy, he often gets scratched.  Maybe the coaches just don't want him on special teams if he is a backup CB, but it's still weird to me.

 

He's a really good athlete but he just doesn't get his head around consistently when the ball is in the air.  Ball awareness is a good term I suppose.  There are many people playing college football that are just like this.  Elam seems to not be able to make that step. If you don't, you can't play in the NFL.

He's been number 2 this year when Douglas or Benford were out. 

 

I'm a Elam truther and think he's a legitimate starting cb

[BigDingus]

13 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said:

He's been number 2 this year when Douglas or Benford were out. 

 

I'm a Elam truther and think he's a legitimate starting cb

 

I'm a real Elam truther, dating back to training camp his rookie year. And the truth is Elam is not good. He will never be a long term starter on this team. He's the biggest bust of the Beane/McDermott era, and when he's in the game, you know something went horribly wrong.

Edited Wednesday at 07:25 AM by BigDingus

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

Elam was in classic DPI positioning for the 2nd call (didn't even attempt to turn his head and was between the WR and the throw). 

 

However, it was a terrible throw and I don't think their was enough contact by Elam on the WR to say that Elam materially restricted the WR chance to catch the ball. The WR jumps as he's moving towards the back of the endzone and his own momentum is taking him away from the ball. Elam barely contacts him.

 

If the WR had stopped and jumped towards the ball (into Elam) then it's 100% a DPI. 

I absolutely hate the pass interference call on underthrown balls. Poor pass shouldn’t give the WR an advantage and it totally does in that situation. Bills got one in Rams game I think and it’s a ***** call. DB has no chance recover there if he’s trailing. I do think where that was a short throw to the endzone that Elam gotta react better. 

Edited Tuesday at 05:48 PM by BananaB

[Sierra Foothills]

23 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

If I was training them my criteria for a foul would be:

 

1) How egregious is the foul?

2) Did it have any bearing on the outcome of the play?

 

Based on a summation of those two considerations a flag would be thrown or not.

 

It seems increasingly like NFL officials just can't resist the temptation to throw a flag, no matter how marginal the infraction is.

 

 

As a corollary to the above and specifically regarding DPI, I've seen way too many plays where the receiver was simply not open and in fact was dominated in coverage by the defender, but a flag was thrown because the receiver was partitioned from the ball by the defender and was unable to work back towards the ball. This happens a lot in trail coverage.

 

In these cases a DPI penalty should almost never be called... a receiver should not be rewarded for having been dominated by the defender. Additionally it's completely unfair for a defender to be expected to somehow "get out of the way" from between the receiver and the ball.

 

If the coverage is excellent and the defender ends up between the receiver and the ball, a flag should almost NEVER be thrown.

 

To be clear this includes many plays that are underthrown balls and I'm NOT talking about plays where the defender is oblivious to the ball and simply runs over the receiver awaiting the ball. In these cases it is obviously DPI. But otherwise in cases where a ball hits the back of a defender it should NEVER be DPI.

 

 

[Kelly to Allen]

1 hour ago, BigDingus said:

 

I'm a real Elam truther, dating back to training camp his rookie year. And the truth is Elam is not good. He is will never be a long term starter on this team. He's the biggest bust of the Beane/McDermott era, and when he's in the game, you know something went horribly wrong.

 

All the data and eye test says he is good. Idk what to tell you. 

[RiotAct]

1 hour ago, Kelly to Allen said:

He's been number 2 this year when Douglas or Benford were out. 

 

I'm a Elam truther and think he's a legitimate starting cb

likely on another team.

[GunnerBill]

13 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

FWIW, PFF has Elam at a perfectly respectable 68 rating.

 

Handsy and caught doing it? Sure. But a penalty is often no worse than a catch allowed. And sometimes a whole lot better: a penalty in the end zone that prevents a score is a lot better than giving up a TD catch.

 

For the season, sure. But that is largely driven by some very high grades in mop up duty in some of the early games - Jacksonville in particular. 

 

He graded out VERY poorly this week - 54.5 after grading out okay in Detroit. Which exactly reflects the eye test to me. He played okay vs the Lions but was really bad against the Pats. 

 

Interestingly the part of his game grading out most strongly per PFF is his tackling - which was regarded his weakness coming into the league. It's his coverage where the struggles have come. 

 

11 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

All the data and eye test says he is good. Idk what to tell you. 

 

Not it doesn't. In the three games he has started - Miami home, Detroit, New England the data says he has been targeted 18 times in coverage, has given up 14 completions (77% when I went to school) for 183 yards at over 13 yards a pop, a touchdown and a passer rating of 119.6. 

 

If that is the data saying he is good I'd hate to see what it looked like if it was saying he is bad.

Edited Wednesday at 06:40 AM by GunnerBill

[Herc11]

I mean, Sauce is just as handsy, but got away with it his rookie year. He was the greatest thing since sliced bread because the NFL promoted him like a mofo. 

 

 

[Brand J]

13 hours ago, BigDingus said:

He's the biggest bust of the Beane/McDermott era

I disagree with this take. Is he the biggest 1st round miss by Beane? Yes, but the biggest busts to me are Cody Ford and Boogie Basham and I base that on the high end/blue chip players that were selected immediately after them. At least in Elam’s case, there wasn’t a major All Pro miss that the Bills could’ve used (and are starving for now) between that pick and James Cook in the 2nd. Kyler Gordon or Cam Taylor-Britt would’ve been much better pieces than Elam, but neither are all pro, or pro bowl worthy. Elam is a bust given we traded up for him, expected much more, and his ROI is low, but he’s not completely worthless. 

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, Brand J said:

I disagree with this take. Is he the biggest 1st round miss by Beane? Yes, but the biggest busts to me are Cody Ford and Boogie Basham and I base that on the high end/blue chip players that were selected immediately after them. At least in Elam’s case, there wasn’t a major All Pro miss that the Bills could’ve used (and are starving for now) between that pick and James Cook in the 2nd. Kyler Gordon or Cam Taylor-Britt would’ve been much better pieces than Elam, but neither are all pro, or pro bowl worthy. Elam is a bust given we traded up for him, expected much more, and his ROI is low, but he’s not completely worthless. 

 

Gordon was my idea for us there and I said so at the time. I think he is a classic zone corner and while yea, picking him in round 1 would probably have also been a reach, at least he can play in our scheme and be an above average starter. The Bears scheme is very similar and he has been a good starting corner for them, though not a stud as you say.

[Kelly to Allen]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

For the season, sure. But that is largely driven by some very high grades in mop up duty in some of the early games - Jacksonville in particular. 

 

He graded out VERY poorly this week - 54.5 after grading out okay in Detroit. Which exactly reflects the eye test to me. He played okay vs the Lions but was really bad against the Pats. 

 

Interestingly the part of his game grading out most strongly per PFF is his tackling - which was regarded his weakness coming into the league. It's his coverage where the struggles have come. 

 

 

Not it doesn't. In the three games he has started - Miami home, Detroit, New England the data says he has been targeted 18 times in coverage, has given up 14 completions (77% when I went to school) for 183 yards at over 13 yards a pop, a touchdown and a passer rating of 119.6. 

 

If that is the data saying he is good I'd hate to see what it looked like if it was saying he is bad.

 

 

Douglas has given up a higher passer rating and has a lower pff covg grade this year. There was even more of a gap in the pff covg grade before the pats game.

 

In fact before the pats game ( Elam did have a tough game vs the pats although it was nowhere near as bad as ppl say) Elam has almost an identical pff covg grade with McDuffie. 

 

Right now it's 67.5

Before it was 75, McDuffie is 78 

 

McDermott clearly has a philosophical difference is my only guess because none of the eye test or data explain why he's not at minimum cb2

 

Again 

 

Elam rotated as a starter his rookie year. He had an excellent game vs KC, had a key int. He then had a down game vs Pickens but also had another int.

 

At the end of his rookie year, he was absolutely our best cover CB and had a pff covg grade of 87, which was the second highest in the NFL 

 

Enter year two. Reports are he's having a solid camp but also Benford emerging and White is back to form. He then got hurt in camp and was later put on ir with a foot sprain 

 

He then returns healthy vs the Steelers and almost had 2 int, but is randomly not starting vs KC in the playoffs. Douglas limps around and is useless 

 

Enter year 3. From all kinds of different people Elam is reportedly having a great camp. I remember that it was reported he had 3 or 4 straight days with an int. 

 

Muki Hawkins has already stated that McDermott told him after camp that he needs to be ready for special teams....???

 

These are facts, it's not a narrative or opinion or whatever. I personally don't agree with it, we're seeing a real regression in McDermott's defense on 3rd down along with other concerns. 

 

The only rational explanation is McDermott has a zone philosophy bias and if that's the case just trade Elam in the off-season for whatever and don't make the same mistake again. 

 

Obviously in hindsight Gordon was the ideal pick. 

Edited Wednesday at 04:07 PM by Kelly to Allen

[GunnerBill]

17 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

 

Douglas has given up a higher passer rating and has a lower pff covg grade this year. There was even more of a gap in the pff covg grade before the pats game.

 

In fact before the pats game ( Elam did have a tough game vs the pats although it was nowhere near as bad as ppl say) Elam has almost an identical pff covg grade with McDuffie. 

 

Right now it's 67.5

Before it was 75, McDuffie is 78 

 

McDermott clearly has a philosophical difference is my only guess because none of the eye test or data explain why he's not at minimum cb2

 

Again 

 

Elam rotated as a starter his rookie year. He had an excellent game vs KC, had a key int. He then had a down game vs Pickens but also had another int.

 

At the end of his rookie year, he was absolutely our best cover CB and had a pff covg grade of 87, which was the second highest in the NFL 

 

Enter year two. Reports are he's having a solid camp but also Benford emerging and White is back to form. He then got hurt in camp and was later put on ir with a foot sprain 

 

He then returns healthy vs the Steelers and almost had 2 int, but is randomly not starting vs KC in the playoffs. Douglas limps around and is useless 

 

Enter year 3. From all kinds of different people Elam is reportedly having a great camp. I remember that it was reported he had 3 or 4 straight days with an int. 

 

Muki Hawkins has already stated that McDermott told him after camp that he needs to be ready for special teams....???

 

These are facts, it's not a narrative or opinion or whatever. I personally don't agree with it, we're seeing a real regression in McDermott's defense on 3rd down along with other concerns. 

 

The only rational explanation is McDermott has a zone philosophy bias and if that's the case just trade Elam in the off-season for whatever and don't make the same mistake again. 

 

Obviously in hindsight Gordon was the ideal pick. 

 

I don't think Douglas is particularly good either so that comparison is meh to me. I agree he hasn't been very good this year. I don't need the history lesson on how we got here with Elam. I'm well aware. The only thing I'd edit is in that 2023 training camp Benford flat beat him out. Fair and square. Because he is better than him. 

 

I was on the "let Elam play the season out" train after Detroit - where I thought he played okay - but he was a disaster against the Pats. And it was all the same old failings. The things that were flaws in college: drop depth in zone, transitions and penalty waiting to happen at the top of the route. It's 3 years. If the light truly had "gone on" at some point then I don't think those things are all still happening. 

 

I think they just blew the pick.

Edited 20 hours ago by GunnerBill