THE ROCKPILE REVIEW – Detroit Goes Down

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Right away I would add the guy on the Raiders and the Lions kid who’s currently injured. The point is that the Bills pass rushers have been average at best. And I’d say below average for the capital they’ve invested in that position. It needs significant improvement either in talent or coaching or both. 

I look at the team and generally agree with you about an impact player.  The good teams generally scare you with some big=time defender. Hutchinson says he plans to be back for the Super Bowl.  That's something every AFC opponent has to think about. 

 

I really do think the ultimate question for discussion is philosophy. Groot is a good example. The guy could be the best all-round defensive end in the game. He can do everything. He's coachable. I'm sure McDermott loves him because he's skilled, high motor, durable, and consistent. He's the ideal McDermott player.  Look at Jerry Hughes.  He was a big play guy until McDermott arrived, and then he transitioned to a player more like Groot. The big plays declined, but the mistakes, the plays where the edge was left unprotected, also declined. That's what McDermott wants. 

 

But Groot is a playmaker without being a big-play guy, and in big games the perception of many (including me) is that you need big plays. Now, maybe out perception is wrong. Maybe consistent play is more valuable than big plays even in big games.  I don't know. But when Chris Jones disrupts Allen on a critical throw in the red zone, it's hard not to think that the Bills need a big-play guy. 

 

It's an interesting discussion, and I'd love talking to McDermott about it. I won't get that chance. In the meantime, I'm not holding my breath. McDermott and Beane seem to agree on philosophy, because Beane keeps getting guys who fit the McDermott ideal, not the Deek ideal. 

[amprov56]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I look at the team and generally agree with you about an impact player.  The good teams generally scare you with some big=time defender. Hutchinson says he plans to be back for the Super Bowl.  That's something every AFC opponent has to think about. 

 

I really do think the ultimate question for discussion is philosophy. Groot is a good example. The guy could be the best all-round defensive end in the game. He can do everything. He's coachable. I'm sure McDermott loves him because he's skilled, high motor, durable, and consistent. He's the ideal McDermott player.  Look at Jerry Hughes.  He was a big play guy until McDermott arrived, and then he transitioned to a player more like Groot. The big plays declined, but the mistakes, the plays where the edge was left unprotected, also declined. That's what McDermott wants. 

 

But Groot is a playmaker without being a big-play guy, and in big games the perception of many (including me) is that you need big plays. Now, maybe out perception is wrong. Maybe consistent play is more valuable than big plays even in big games.  I don't know. But when Chris Jones disrupts Allen on a critical throw in the red zone, it's hard not to think that the Bills need a big-play guy. 

 

It's an interesting discussion, and I'd love talking to McDermott about it. I won't get that chance. In the meantime, I'm not holding my breath. McDermott and Beane seem to agree on philosophy, because Beane keeps getting guys who fit the McDermott ideal, not the Deek ideal. 

Perennial Playoff Team!

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I look at the team and generally agree with you about an impact player.  The good teams generally scare you with some big=time defender. Hutchinson says he plans to be back for the Super Bowl.  That's something every AFC opponent has to think about. 

 

I really do think the ultimate question for discussion is philosophy. Groot is a good example. The guy could be the best all-round defensive end in the game. He can do everything. He's coachable. I'm sure McDermott loves him because he's skilled, high motor, durable, and consistent. He's the ideal McDermott player.  Look at Jerry Hughes.  He was a big play guy until McDermott arrived, and then he transitioned to a player more like Groot. The big plays declined, but the mistakes, the plays where the edge was left unprotected, also declined. That's what McDermott wants. 

 

But Groot is a playmaker without being a big-play guy, and in big games the perception of many (including me) is that you need big plays. Now, maybe out perception is wrong. Maybe consistent play is more valuable than big plays even in big games.  I don't know. But when Chris Jones disrupts Allen on a critical throw in the red zone, it's hard not to think that the Bills need a big-play guy. 

 

It's an interesting discussion, and I'd love talking to McDermott about it. I won't get that chance. In the meantime, I'm not holding my breath. McDermott and Beane seem to agree on philosophy, because Beane keeps getting guys who fit the McDermott ideal, not the Deek ideal. 

I couldn’t agree more Shaw. I guess we’re gonna find out in about a month as to whether the approach works. To date it hasn’t. 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

I couldn’t agree more Shaw. I guess we’re gonna find out in about a month as to whether the approach works. To date it hasn’t. 

I don't spend much time or energy on chasing free agents.  One guy makes a difference only once in a while.  Like Miller.

 

However, the thought that Beane might find a way to get Calais Campbell for the playoffs got my juices flowing.  I don't know if he has anything left (and I don't mean to start that conversation - there's a thread where all that's been discussed), but sticking the Calais Campbell of a year ago into the middle of the Bills defensive line would change the whole picture.  Mixing and matching Campbell, Groot, Jones, Oliver, Miller could create some great mismatches. 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't spend much time or energy on chasing free agents.  One guy makes a difference only once in a while.  Like Miller.

 

However, the thought that Beane might find a way to get Calais Campbell for the playoffs got my juices flowing.  I don't know if he has anything left (and I don't mean to start that conversation - there's a thread where all that's been discussed), but sticking the Calais Campbell of a year ago into the middle of the Bills defensive line would change the whole picture.  Mixing and matching Campbell, Groot, Jones, Oliver, Miller could create some great mismatches. 

I’m with your initial assessment. I wouldn’t chase anyone right now. No matter how many juices are flowing. 😂

 

Everything we’re reading is that the team chemistry is great right now. I wouldn’t mess with it for 2024. We have to dance with the gals we brought. 
 

However, going into 2025 it’s got to be time to get more aggressive. Relying on Allen and his merry band of assorted offensive weapons to pull out an NBA- like score week after week is truly unsustainable. 

[Cash]

6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Right away I would add the guy on the Raiders and the Lions kid who’s currently injured. The point is that the Bills pass rushers have been average at best. And I’d say below average for the capital they’ve invested in that position. It needs significant improvement either in talent or coaching or both. 

 

Agreed on those 2, so we're up to 6 active players plus 1 on IR.  Per BearNorth's post above, we can add Josh Hines-Allen to get us to 7 active/8 total.  I guess we could include Trey Hendrickson as well, but I'm reluctant to do that.  I haven't watched any Bengals games this year, so maybe Hendrickson has massively stepped up his game this year.  But I watched him a lot when he was on the Saints, and IMO he's not on a different tier than Groot as a pass rusher.

 

And here's your original point:

 

On 12/19/2024 at 8:29 AM, SoCal Deek said:

Regarding personnel, they need a complete do-over at DE. Groot, Miller and Epenesa do not scare anyone and they certainly don’t wreck an opponent’s game plan. Those are the first guys I’d change. The back end will naturally improve if the DEs can get to the quarterback. 

 

You're welcome to change them out once you get the GM job, but it seems like you think it's simple to find multiple DEs that scare other teams and wreck the opponent's game plan.  I submit that those guys might be the 2nd-hardest to find in the NFL after franchise QBs.  You're welcome to prove me wrong, but where are all these other acceptably-good DEs?  Beane has been throwing a lot of resources at the D-line; some of it has paid off, a good chunk of it hasn't.  But I don't think it's as simple as "get rid of these guys and bring in better guys."

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, Cash said:

 

Agreed on those 2, so we're up to 6 active players plus 1 on IR.  Per BearNorth's post above, we can add Josh Hines-Allen to get us to 7 active/8 total.  I guess we could include Trey Hendrickson as well, but I'm reluctant to do that.  I haven't watched any Bengals games this year, so maybe Hendrickson has massively stepped up his game this year.  But I watched him a lot when he was on the Saints, and IMO he's not on a different tier than Groot as a pass rusher.

 

And here's your original point:

 

 

You're welcome to change them out once you get the GM job, but it seems like you think it's simple to find multiple DEs that scare other teams and wreck the opponent's game plan.  I submit that those guys might be the 2nd-hardest to find in the NFL after franchise QBs.  You're welcome to prove me wrong, but where are all these other acceptably-good DEs?  Beane has been throwing a lot of resources at the D-line; some of it has paid off, a good chunk of it hasn't.  But I don't think it's as simple as "get rid of these guys and bring in better guys."

Simple? I didn’t say it was simple. But they’ve got decisions to make every off season and this one will provide yet another opportunity. Do they extend their current crop or look to turn the page? Or is it coaching? We’re all quick to point blame when the O Line isn’t living up to expectations but I rarely hear a peep about the D Line coaching. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not on the warpath here, but as I said to Shaw I find it hard to believe the current defense will lead to anything other than another playoff disappointment. 

[Savage]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I look at the team and generally agree with you about an impact player.  The good teams generally scare you with some big=time defender. Hutchinson says he plans to be back for the Super Bowl.  That's something every AFC opponent has to think about. 

 

I really do think the ultimate question for discussion is philosophy. Groot is a good example. The guy could be the best all-round defensive end in the game. He can do everything. He's coachable. I'm sure McDermott loves him because he's skilled, high motor, durable, and consistent. He's the ideal McDermott player.  Look at Jerry Hughes.  He was a big play guy until McDermott arrived, and then he transitioned to a player more like Groot. The big plays declined, but the mistakes, the plays where the edge was left unprotected, also declined. That's what McDermott wants. 

 

But Groot is a playmaker without being a big-play guy, and in big games the perception of many (including me) is that you need big plays. Now, maybe out perception is wrong. Maybe consistent play is more valuable than big plays even in big games.  I don't know. But when Chris Jones disrupts Allen on a critical throw in the red zone, it's hard not to think that the Bills need a big-play guy. 

 

It's an interesting discussion, and I'd love talking to McDermott about it. I won't get that chance. In the meantime, I'm not holding my breath. McDermott and Beane seem to agree on philosophy, because Beane keeps getting guys who fit the McDermott ideal, not the Deek ideal. 

“I really do think the ultimate question for discussion is philosophy. Groot is a good example. The guy could be the best all-round defensive end in the game. He can doeverything. He's coachable. I'm sureMcDermott loves him because he's skilled,high motor, durable, and consistent. He's theideal McDermott player.”
 

 

we’re never going to see the player you’re talking about.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Savage said:

 

we’re never going to see the player you’re talking about.

I tend to think you're correct. 

[GoBills808]

6 hours ago, Cash said:

 

Agreed on those 2, so we're up to 6 active players plus 1 on IR.  Per BearNorth's post above, we can add Josh Hines-Allen to get us to 7 active/8 total.  I guess we could include Trey Hendrickson as well, but I'm reluctant to do that.  I haven't watched any Bengals games this year, so maybe Hendrickson has massively stepped up his game this year.  But I watched him a lot when he was on the Saints, and IMO he's not on a different tier than Groot as a pass rusher.

 

And here's your original point:

 

 

You're welcome to change them out once you get the GM job, but it seems like you think it's simple to find multiple DEs that scare other teams and wreck the opponent's game plan.  I submit that those guys might be the 2nd-hardest to find in the NFL after franchise QBs.  You're welcome to prove me wrong, but where are all these other acceptably-good DEs?  Beane has been throwing a lot of resources at the D-line; some of it has paid off, a good chunk of it hasn't.  But I don't think it's as simple as "get rid of these guys and bring in better guys."

Hendrickson as in Trey Hendrickson? Not on a different tier than Rousseau???

 

 

[Sierra Foothills]

On 12/17/2024 at 4:11 PM, Shaw66 said:

My wife and I went to the Detroit Institute of Art, which is an extraordinary museum. On their main donor wall, the second highest category was donors who had given over $10 million in the past several years. There were four or five names in that category, including the Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. Foundation, right there with this Ford and that Ford. 

 

Really extraordinary generosity. 

 

Besides the Art Institute and the Motown Museums you've mentioned another great visit is the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village.

 

On 12/17/2024 at 4:42 PM, Logic said:

There is a certain charm and uniqueness to the architecture in blue collar, rust belt type cities like Detroit and Buffalo.

In fact, one of the most underrated aspects of the city of Buffalo (and nearby Rochester) is its architecture. You don't necessarily realize it growing up. You don't sense that it's unique, and you take it for granted. But then, leaving western new york and going around the rest of the country, it dawns on you: Huh, some of that architecture from the city I grew up in is actually pretty special!

 

I grew up and lived in Buffalo and her suburbs for 40 years.

 

To me Buffalo, Cleveland, and Detroit are cousins. Culturally, the ethnic groups, architecture, history... so much of it is similar. People out here are always surprised when I tell them that Buffalo is closer to Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Toronto than it is New York City... and Buffalo's culture is much more midwestern than it is eastern seaboard... we have little in common with NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, etc.

 

In fact while Buffalo and Cleveland are on Lake Erie, Detroit is on a body of water which is essentially a tributary of Lake Erie... the city limits are less than 30 miles from Lake Erie. So while many dwell on differences and rivalries (what is with Buffalonians hating on Canadians... what the hell is that all about?), I've always felt a kinship with Cleveland and Detroit.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 02:32 AM by Sierra Foothills

[Governor]

Sometimes I wonder if it’s just McD’s scheme that makes players underperform and doesn’t play to a person’s natural strengths/instincts but there aren’t any examples of players going somewhere else and excelling. Edmunds is basically the same player in Chicago.

[scuba guy]

13 hours ago, Cash said:

Are there really “many”? What does that mean - do most teams have one? I’m skeptical on this front. I would bet that if you sat down and went through rosters, you’d be hard pressed to find more than 10 pass rushers who fit the standard you’re asking for. 
 

1. Parsons

2. Watt

3. Bosa 1

4. Bosa 2

5. Garrett

That's all I can come up with off the top of my head. Who am I missing?

The raiders de, can't think of his name

[Sierra Foothills]

12 minutes ago, Governor said:

Sometimes I wonder if it’s just McD’s scheme that makes players underperform and doesn’t play to a person’s natural strengths/instincts but there aren’t any examples of players going somewhere else and excelling. Edmunds is basically the same player in Chicago.

 

I think it's more they've not always picked the right guy.

 

They nailed Tre White but without naming names they've whiffed on a lot of their defensive picks... sometimes not totally but in retrospect there's proved to be better players that they passed over. Think of the guys that could be wearing Bills unis in retrospect.

 

[Cash]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Hendrickson as in Trey Hendrickson? Not on a different tier than Rousseau???

 

 

Correct. Again, maybe he’s gone up a level since leaving the Saints. I haven’t been watching him on the Bengals. But the guy I saw a ton of on the Saints was not on a different level than this year’s Greg Rousseau. I’m sorry if that upsets you.  

 

4 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

I grew up and lived in Buffalo and her suburbs for 40 years.

 

To me Buffalo, Cleveland, and Detroit are cousins. Culturally, the ethnic groups, architecture, history... so much of it is similar. People out here are always surprised when I tell them that Buffalo is closer to Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Toronto than it is New York City... and Buffalo's culture is much more midwestern than it is eastern seaboard... we have little in common with NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, etc.

 

In fact while Buffalo and Cleveland are on Lake Erie, Detroit is on a body of water which is essentially a tributary of Lake Erie... the city limits are less than 30 miles from Lake Erie. So while many dwell on differences and rivalries (what is with Buffalonians hating on Canadians... what the hell is that all about?), I've always felt a kinship with Cleveland and Detroit.

 

 

I don’t disagree with this take. I’m from Rochester originally, and I’ve long felt like it’s roughly on the border between Northeast and Midwest. I think Buffalo is still kind of in that border, but closer to Midwest. 

[Savage]

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I tend to think you're correct. 

I agree that has all the tools to be elite, is just isn’t happening on the field at the moment.

 

hopefully one day, the switch gets flipped on, and he becomes what we think he can be.

 

[Shaw66]

7 hours ago, Cash said:

I don’t disagree with this take. I’m from Rochester originally, and I’ve long felt like it’s roughly on the border between Northeast and Midwest. I think Buffalo is still kind of in that border, but closer to Midwest. 

I grew up in Buffalo. I've lived in the northeast for 50 years. Buffalo is definitely midwest. Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee are essentially all the same city, and none of them is like Boston or Hartford or New York City. 

[amprov56]

5 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I grew up in Buffalo. I've lived in the northeast for 50 years. Buffalo is definitely midwest. Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee are essentially all the same city, and none of them is like Boston or Hartford or New York City. 

Great post and so true!

[machine gun kelly]

On 12/17/2024 at 12:37 PM, turbo044 said:

Very bad luck for Detroit, but, I think all their injuries are going to be their downfall this year. If they can somehow hold onto the 1 seed, they'll have a decent chance to make the Superbowl, but I still see GreenBay, Philadelphia, even the Rams matching up well vs. them

Turbo, it probably comes down to Philly or Detroit.  I know the Lions are really banged up, but may get some back by the playoffs.  They have been the #1 scoring offense this year with us a close second.  The difference is we have more healthy starters.  Not perfect, but better.  I don’t see anyone in the AFC beating us.  Not even the Ravens.  Their defense is horrible.  We are not the same team as early in the year.