Anyone else want to keep seeing Elam and Bishop on the field after yesterday?

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

We need both these guys to get a bunch of reps here in these last three games. They should have been worked in more all year to gain more experience. We need that depth. 

[BillsFanForever19]

I can see the merits of Bishop for Hamlin - in theory. I think Hamlin is more regularly reliable right now than what Bishop has shown. But I don't think Bishop is far off in terms of ability right now and has MUCH larger room for growth. However, this isn't a move i'd be willing to make this late into the year. He doesn't have the experience right now. Hell, the guy got a full games worth of NFL Football and had to be carted off the field with cramps.

 

But Elam for Douglas is just a baffling question to me. Douglas had a rough outing against the Rams. But it's not like Elam fared much better against the Lions. And there's no question week to week who the better CB is. Benching a healthy Douglas for Elam is laughable.

Edited December 17 by BillsFanForever19

[FireChans]

12 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

However, this isn't a move i'd be willing to make this late into the year. He doesn't have the experience right now. Hell, the guy got a full games worth of NFL Football and had to be carted off the field with cramps

We are basically cruising to the end of the year. I can’t think of a better time to let him get experience. 

[Sojourner]

14 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

I can see the merits of Bishop for Hamlin - in theory. I think Hamlin is more regularly reliable right now than what Bishop has shown. But I don't think Bishop is far off in terms of ability right now and has MUCH larger room for growth. However, this isn't a move i'd be willing to make this late into the year. He doesn't have the experience right now. Hell, the guy got a full games worth of NFL Football and had to be carted off the field with cramps.

 

But Elam for Douglas is just a baffling question to me. Douglas had a rough outing against the Rams. But it's not like Elam fared much better against the Lions. And there's no question week to week who the better CB is. Benching a healthy Douglas for Elam is laughable.

No one is suggesting benching a healthy Douglas for Elam. Not for a second. 
 

And I don’t understand, if you go game for game, how you’re putting Elam’s play on par with Rasul. His outing against the Rams was rough but Elam’s against the Lions was just as bad? You lost me there bro. 
 

He gave up some catches to St. Brown but they weren’t back breakers. There was actually a few absolutely solid coverages he played, specifically on an out route. Now granted on that catch it was a conversion on the 4th down but he played it very well. Just a heck of a throw by Goff. 
 

That’s all the excuses I heard for the secondary last week; “They played their best game” “absolute elite WR”. St. Brown is on par with Puka. 
 

I can’t stress this enough, I’m not the biggest fan of Elam but I am a fan of every player on this team. The fact the narrative is he played awful when he really didn’t is insane. The guy was in spot duty from the doghouse and stepped up to the plate. 

[DCofNC]

5 hours ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

No. Nyet. Nada. Elam, while he hasn’t looked horrible, has the benefit of opposing offenses not having tape on him, which I think plays in his favor. He just hasn’t shown me enough, and apparently he hasn’t shown the Bills brass enough either. Bishop, while I see potential, I also see him giving up big plays at the worst possible time. Not their time yet. It’s a next year question IMO. 

 
so you’re ok with Hamlin giving up big plays ALL the time?

[Einstein's Dog]

3 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

 
so you’re ok with Hamlin giving up big plays ALL the time?

What the OP doesn't give as an option is Hyde.  

 

The Bishop/Elam play time is more for future seasons.  Nice to see get some game time this year but they aren't really factors in this years playoff plans.   

 

Hyde, on the other hand, has the potential to upgrade the team for this years playoffs.  Would like to see him get some game time.

[NoName]

5 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

Douglas has been surrendering a 124.1 rating against opposing QBs this year 

In that case we should give Elam some more run.  He and Benford being drafted in the same year and starting together is a bonus.

[GaryPinC]

5 hours ago, TFBillsfan said:

One thing I really struggle with is why Elam has been inactive. Regardless, it’s good to know he can jump in if Douglas or Benford are hurt. Still don’t know what we have with Bishop as he can’t stay healthy enough to get on the field consistently.  Overall, the core issue on D is the DL. If you can’t consistently sack the QB or get pressure, almost any NFL QB will pick you apart!

Not sure how much this factors, but his teammates don't seem to like him that much.  In the second half he had a nice PBU and no one came to congratulate him, everyone just filed off.  One astute poster (apologies, I forget who) noted that earlier in the season after Elam recovered a fumble no one celebrated with him.  

 

Not sure what it means, but yesterday it struck me very odd given the camaraderie on this team.

 

WRT Bishop, after getting torched against the Texans and subsequently banished to only special teams, the last thing he was going to do was be aggressive to the LOS on anything BUT a clear run play.

 

They both popped at times though yesterday.   Elam's speed and closing ability were noticeable to me.  But it is the perfect schedule remaining to work these guys in for meaningful snaps, even if not starting.

 

Can they contribute meaningfully during the playoffs?  At least give them opportunities to settle in to game speed now just in case they're needed.

[billsfan89]

I wouldn't mind seeing these guys "take their lumps" if any of the starters are injured. But if everyone is healthy who is ever playing the best plays.

[Sierra Foothills]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Bishop gave up a longer pass to St. Brown, but soon after Goff threw a bomb to Williams who looked like he kinda torched Bishop at first and then it seemed at first he just dropped the ball, but after watching a few times it looks like Bishop's athleticisms helped him to recover enough to get a hand in there and maybe break up the pass. 

 

Or minimally distract the receiver.

 

5 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

What is your source for DB stats?  

 

 

5 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Really needed a 3rd choice of maybe.  If there I'd have voted maybe instead of yes.

 

It seems like most here would love to see Bishop get some work in place of Hamlin, but not necessarily for Rapp.

 

5 hours ago, PoundingDog said:

Elam's tackling still needs work. He's trying to pry the ball out instead of tackling too many times.

 

I was happy with Elam's play. He'll never be a physical player IMO but you can tell he's bigger and stronger than he was as a rookie.

 

5 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

Channeling my inner McD I would not play a rook like Bishop who has had limited playing time in his complicated scheme in any meaningful game, certainly not in the playoffs. The fear is that he would be beaten cleanly like Williams did to him yesterday. 

 

With the final 3 games against New England (twice) and the Jets, the margin for error is large enough that both should get more reps, IMO.

 

5 hours ago, BearNorth said:

PFF said Elam had the best pass coverage grade on the team [not saying much when you give up 500 yards].  Second was PS callup K. Jackson.  Bishop, Milano, Bernard, and Spector all had coverage grades in the 30's and 40's.

 

Kareem Jackson had 32 snaps and I was pleased with what I saw. It's easy to see why the Bills wanted his experience and physicality available in a pinch.

 

[BillsFanForever19]

45 minutes ago, FireChans said:

We are basically cruising to the end of the year. I can’t think of a better time to let him get experience. 

 

Fair point.

 

But with Mahomes week to week and then having two AFC playoff teams coming up on the docket - the 1 seed is more in play than it was before this weeks slate of games. I don't know that now is the time to put it in cruise and experiment. Especially given that he couldn't finish the game and he hasn't looked very good in relief when called upon before that game.

 

41 minutes ago, Sojourner said:

No one is suggesting benching a healthy Douglas for Elam. Not for a second. 
 

And I don’t understand, if you go game for game, how you’re putting Elam’s play on par with Rasul. His outing against the Rams was rough but Elam’s against the Lions was just as bad? You lost me there bro. 
 

He gave up some catches to St. Brown but they weren’t back breakers. There was actually a few absolutely solid coverages he played, specifically on an out route. Now granted on that catch it was a conversion on the 4th down but he played it very well. Just a heck of a throw by Goff. 
 

That’s all the excuses I heard for the secondary last week; “They played their best game” “absolute elite WR”. St. Brown is on par with Puka. 
 

I can’t stress this enough, I’m not the biggest fan of Elam but I am a fan of every player on this team. The fact the narrative is he played awful when he really didn’t is insane. The guy was in spot duty from the doghouse and stepped up to the plate. 

 

The secondary gave up 494 yards and 5 TD's through the air against the Lions. As bad as the Rams game was, our secondary gave up 320 yards and 2 TD's. That's 174 more yards and 3 more TD's giving up by the Secondary in this outing than last week. 

 

Is that all on Elam? No. But I don't know how you can look at a game where we have up just about 500 yards through the air and say that Elam stepped up to the plate. Douglas had a bad game and Elam didn't play well either.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

But with Mahomes week to week and then having two AFC playoff teams coming up on the docket - the 1 seed is more in play than it was before this weeks slate of games. I don't know that now is the time to put it in cruise and experiment. Especially given that he couldn't finish the game and he hasn't looked very good in relief when called upon before that game.

Not convinced the 1 seed will be up for grabs. 
 

Also not convinced that Bishop vs Hamlin will be difference between beating the woeful Jets/Pats x2.

 

You don’t even have to play him all game. Let him rotate in for 10 snaps when we have a double digit lead but we aren’t pulling starters yet. 
 

Experimenting so guys that we may NEED if someone tweaks an ankle can get reps is the benefit to having some tomato cans at the end imo. If Bishop gets better and shows some stuff on tape, that’s great. If he looks out of place, well at least he got some more experience out there.

 

What I don’t want is his next snap to be if Hamlin/Rapp get hurt at halftime in the AFCCG

[starrymessenger]

38 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

Or minimally distract the receiver.

 

 

 

 

It seems like most here would love to see Bishop get some work in place of Hamlin, but not necessarily for Rapp.

 

 

I was happy with Elam's play. He'll never be a physical player IMO but you can tell he's bigger and stronger than he was as a rookie.

 

 

With the final 3 games against New England (twice) and the Jets, the margin for error is large enough that both should get more reps, IMO.

 

 

Kareem Jackson had 32 snaps and I was pleased with what I saw. It's easy to see why the Bills wanted his experience and physicality available in a pinch.

 

What if Mahomes is out for say 2 of the Chiefs remaining games (which has at least been rumoured) so that we have a shot at the #1 seed. Does that change the calculus at all? I'd be ok with Elam but Bishop is a raw rookie who has not seen much playing time.

[Doc Brown]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

What I don’t want is his next snap to be if Hamlin/Rapp get hurt at halftime in the AFCCG

They'll pry go right to Hyde if that happens.  My concern is both get hurt.

[Sojourner]

2 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Fair point.

 

But with Mahomes week to week and then having two AFC playoff teams coming up on the docket - the 1 seed is more in play than it was before this weeks slate of games. I don't know that now is the time to put it in cruise and experiment. Especially given that he couldn't finish the game and he hasn't looked very good in relief when called upon before that game.

 

 

The secondary gave up 494 yards and 5 TD's through the air against the Lions. As bad as the Rams game was, our secondary gave up 320 yards and 2 TD's. That's 174 more yards and 3 more TD's giving up by the Secondary in this outing than last week. 

 

Is that all on Elam? No. But I don't know how you can look at a game where we have up just about 500 yards through the air and say that Elam stepped up to the plate. Douglas had a bad game and Elam didn't play well either.

 

Fair play man, I see the majority just want to lump it on a guy who, having watched the game twice and the all-22 did give up some plays but honestly, he was the best player in the secondary. Couple that with him being out of favor and only called upon to duty due to injury against one of the most efficient and productive passing teams I definitely feel he played well. 
 

Taron gave up a lot of plays during the first half. The second half? Was pretty much all the LBs. Especially when Spector came in during the 3rd to the finish. Him and Bernard were worse than the DBs. 

St. Brown finished with 193 yards & 1 TD. He had that TD on a 66 yarder in the end of the 3rd. After that? He had a total of 28 yards. They went back to the middle of the field pretty much every drive after that TD. The responsibility on that TD? 58/43/39/24. Right down the middle of the field. 

He’s a whipping boy who, for whatever reason, some refuse to give a tip of the hat or acknowledgment to. 
 

We can agree to disagree.

 

 

[gonzo1105]

I mean if the game is a playoff game the answer is no I do not but if the answer is hey we have 2 weeks and we are locked into the # 2 seed at worst than sure give them live reps in inconsequential games. Elam was better than Bishop for sure. The guy just struggles in deep coverage right now.

[Sierra Foothills]

51 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

What if Mahomes is out for say 2 of the Chiefs remaining games (which has at least been rumoured) so that we have a shot at the #1 seed. Does that change the calculus at all? I'd be ok with Elam but Bishop is a raw rookie who has not seen much playing time.

 

Good question.

 

Firstly it might be a moot point. There's no assurance yet that Hamlin and Rapp will play in week 16.

 

Also Kareem Jackson looked solid to my eye so he's now in play for snaps though it's interesting and encouraging that Bishop got the start.

 

Bishop went from zero snaps in the previous 4 weeks to 47 snaps (59%) against the Lions. Assuming cooperative game scripts, I'd love to see Bishop get 10-15 snaps per game instead of zero. I feel the Bills are generally too cautious with young players, especially on defense. The more Bishop, Elam, and Solomon play, the better they'll get and the more game-ready they'll be in case of further injuries. I don't like seeing young, talented players nailed to the bench, week after week. To me that exhibits a caution verging on fear.

 

I don't like fearful coaching. JMO.

 

[HappyDays]

You absolutely can't sub Bishop in for Hamlin when he's healthy. Hamlin is replacement level but he doesn't get beat deep. Bishop has gotten beat deep twice in two games played. Can't live in that world. Bishop needs to play in the box for right now, he has no business roaming deep until he gets acclimated to NFL speed. Maybe create some subpackages for him where he's basically playing as a strong side LB when we face teams like Baltimore, that should be his only role.

 

Elam I am more intrigued by. He was not outstanding or anything like that but he also wasn't routinely abused like Douglas was against LA. I would keep Douglas on the bench for at least the next game under the guise of injury recovery and see if Elam can't grab a hold of the starting spot. I worry that Douglas has hit the age 30 wall and will be exploited from here on out. Athleticism matters in the playoffs when scheme alone isn't enough to defeat quality opponents.

[starrymessenger]

17 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

Good question.

 

Firstly it might be a moot point. There's no assurance yet that Hamlin and Rapp will play in week 16.

 

Also Kareem Jackson looked solid to my eye so he's now in play for snaps though it's interesting and encouraging that Bishop got the start.

 

Bishop went from zero snaps in the previous 4 weeks to 47 snaps (59%) against the Lions. Assuming cooperative game scripts, I'd love to see Bishop get 10-15 snaps per game instead of zero. I feel the Bills are generally too cautious with young players, especially on defense. The more Bishop, Elam, and Solomon play, the better they'll get and the more game-ready they'll be in case of further injuries. I don't like seeing young, talented players nailed to the bench, week after week. To me that exhibits a caution verging on fear.

 

I don't like fearful coaching. JMO.

 

I don't like fearful coaches either but I'm good with prudent ones. We may well gain some insight into how the Bills themselves interpret the situation  when we see who they trot out there. And I certainly agree that all other things being equal giving Bishop reps is something that he can only benefit from at this point. 

[bmur66]

Elam - yes until Douglas is healthy.

Bishop - Don't want to see him until next year or mop up time. Still needs to have ovaries removed to eliminate cramps.

Lewis - break glass in case of emergency only

Edited December 17 by bmur66