Best Player in Bills History

[Billz4ever]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Josh just has 4 Super Bowls to play horrible in and lose to surpass Jimbo.

 

Fun fact, Josh already has 5 more TD’s in the playoffs than Kelly and 24 less INT’s. 

That was really my biggest gripe with Kelly in the postseason.  He played OK and even great in some games, but never really showed up in any of the Super Bowls.

 

Thurman Thomas would've been MVP had Norwood made that kick.

[US Egg]

Allen is as close to a phenom as there has ever been on the Bills imo.
 

Yeah, I said this earlier in another thread.

[GASabresIUFan]

11 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

He was a unique talent who happened to be on a team that didn't have much else other than him for most of his career.

Like OJ.

 

Bruce Smith - In his 15 years with the Bills he was 1st or 2nd team All-pro 11 times (8 1st team). He was D Poy twice and finished in the top 5 6 other times.  He also finished 4th in the MVP voting in 1990.  He had 171 sacks and 1054 tackles in his 15 years in Buffalo.  Think about that, he was a DE who regularly had 80-100 tackles in a season during his prime.  

 

OJ - 5 time AP 1st team, 1 MVP, 1 OPoy.  He also had 4 other top 5 Poy and 3 other top 5 MVP votes.

 

Bruce is the most decorated Bills player of all-time and OJ is 2nd.

 

Other highly decorated Bills (stats from time in Buffalo)

Billy Shaw - 8 Time Pro-Bowler, 6 time All-pro (5 times 1st team) - HOF

Joe D - 5 time PB, 5 time all-pro (3 time 1st team) - HOF

Reed - 7 time PB, 2- time 2nd team all pro - HOF

Thomas - 5 Time PB, 5 Time All-pro (2 time 1st team), MVP & OPoy in 1991 - HOF

Kelly - 5 time PB, 2 time AP (1st team) 2 top 5 MVP and 3 top 6 Opoy - HOF

Diggs - 4 time PB, 2 time AP (1st team) 

ALLEN - 2 time PB, 1 2nd team AP, 3 top 5 MVP, 1 top 5 OPoy (plus whatever happens this season)

Bennett - 5 time PB, 1 1st team AP, 2 top 6 DPoy

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:54 PM by GASabresIUFan

[FireChans]

12 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

That was really my biggest gripe with Kelly in the postseason.  He played OK and even great in some games, but never really showed up in any of the Super Bowls.

 

Thurman Thomas would've been MVP had Norwood made that kick.

It’s a fair gripe. Kelly saved his worst football for the end. 
 

He’s still a HoFer and one of the best QBs to ever put on a Bills uni. But he was like the anti-Aikman. Aikman would get carried and play horrible all year and then flip a switch come postseason. Kelly would be throwing all over the yard all year til the end and would lay an egg.

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

OJ was such an amazing talent.  If he were on a more successful team, he may be remembered as the greatest running back ever.

 

 

 

And if he wasn't a killer.  OJ's off-the-field exploits seem to make people underappreciate his other worldly on-the-field talent.  And maybe that's how it should be.

Back in the 1970's - before QBs took over the game - I would have argued that not only are Jim Brown and OJ the best RBs ever, they're the best football players ever.  

[Harold Jackson]

20 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Josh just has 4 Super Bowls to play horrible in and lose to surpass Jimbo.

 

Fun fact, Josh already has 5 more TD’s in the playoffs than Kelly and 24 less INT’s. 

You have to actually get to the SBs to play in them.Kelly has accomplished  far more in that realm, obviously. Those extra TDs amount to nothing but still some disappointment and falling far shorter. 

Again, the 24 less ints are meaningless because Kelly won 4 (well, Oilers game aside)  conference championships and the rules today make it hard for DBs to actually get in the way. 

 

Are you all dating Josh or something, lol? It's like you're taking it personally, just talking about some kid you watch on tv. 

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

It's not even close.  He could be best qb ever.  I don't think I'm being a homer either.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Harold Jackson said:

You have to actually get to the SBs to play in them.Kelly has accomplished  far more in that realm, obviously. Those extra TDs amount to nothing but still some disappointment and falling far shorter. 

Again, the 24 less ints are meaningless because Kelly won 4 (well, Oilers game aside)  conference championships and the rules today make it hard for DBs to actually get in the way. 

 

Are you all dating Josh or something, lol? It's like you're taking it personally, just talking about some kid you watch on tv. 

 

He’s just better than Jim, man. It’s okay to admit it lol

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, Harold Jackson said:

As a individual doing something important in football history. OJ.

 

As a Buffalo team icon. And damn good accomplishments. Jim Kelly.

 

Sure Josh is good. But any QB in the league can throw 280 yards with these pansy ass rules, tiny shoulder pads, wussy basketball shorts style football pants era. 

 

 

 

Back in the 50s, 60s and early 70s - the very best athletes became running backs.  Offenses revolved around bell cow running backs.  Defenses were designed to stop running backs.  

 

And OJ may have been the greatest of the great.  In 1973, when he gained 2003 yards, the back who would have led the league in rushing if not for OJ had 1144.  When has another RB produced 75% more yards than the 2nd best guy?  Or a QB?  Or WR?  Brady never did this; never came close. 

 

Tua had a great year last season: 4624 yards.  Josh would have had to pass for over 8,000 yards to accomplish the equivalent of what OJ did in his best year.  

 

 

[Billz4ever]

23 minutes ago, Harold Jackson said:

You have to actually get to the SBs to play in them.Kelly has accomplished  far more in that realm, obviously. Those extra TDs amount to nothing but still some disappointment and falling far shorter. 

Again, the 24 less ints are meaningless because Kelly won 4 (well, Oilers game aside)  conference championships and the rules today make it hard for DBs to actually get in the way. 

 

Are you all dating Josh or something, lol? It's like you're taking it personally, just talking about some kid you watch on tv. 

 

 

Man, by the sound of your post, it's almost like you're rooting against Josh and this team because they would be seen as the better team over Kelly and all the HOFers that he had around him that Josh doesn't have.

[MJS]

It is Bruce and it isn't even close. Josh Allen will likely end his career as the best Bill ever, but he still has a lot of playing to do. In fact, I'd put Thurman Thomas and OJ Simpson ahead of him too, and I'm close to putting Jim Kelly ahead of him, but I'll give Josh the nod over Jim because when Jim played, the offense went through Thurman Thomas, really.

Edited Tuesday at 05:34 AM by MJS

[MJS]

20 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Back in the 50s, 60s and early 70s - the very best athletes became running backs.  Offenses revolved around bell cow running backs.  Defenses were designed to stop running backs.  

 

And OJ may have been the greatest of the great.  In 1973, when he gained 2003 yards, the back who would have led the league in rushing if not for OJ had 1144.  When has another RB produced 75% more yards than the 2nd best guy?  Or a QB?  Or WR?  Brady never did this; never came close. 

 

Tua had a great year last season: 4624 yards.  Josh would have had to pass for over 8,000 yards to accomplish the equivalent of what OJ did in his best year. 

Recency bias. OJ is one of the greatest in NFL history regardless of team. Yeah, his legacy is tarnished for sure, but as a football player he was the elite of the elite. The same goes for Bruce Smith. Bruce is in the conversation for best ever pass rusher in the history of the league. Josh just isn't there yet. He needs to keep doing what he has been doing for a lot longer.

[Billz4ever]

28 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Back in the 50s, 60s and early 70s - the very best athletes became running backs.  Offenses revolved around bell cow running backs.  Defenses were designed to stop running backs.  

 

And OJ may have been the greatest of the great.  In 1973, when he gained 2003 yards, the back who would have led the league in rushing if not for OJ had 1144.  When has another RB produced 75% more yards than the 2nd best guy?  Or a QB?  Or WR?  Brady never did this; never came close. 

 

Tua had a great year last season: 4624 yards.  Josh would have had to pass for over 8,000 yards to accomplish the equivalent of what OJ did in his best year.  

 

 

 

If the goal in the NFL were to rack up yards, you might have a point.  The goal is to win Championships, so the comparison to Brady is kind of ridiculous no matter how much I hate the guy.  You have to respect the game.

[hondo in seattle]

15 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

 

If the goal in the NFL were to rack up yards, you might have a point.  The goal is to win Championships, so the comparison to Brady is kind of ridiculous no matter how much I hate the guy.  You have to respect the game.

 

This is true but football is a team sport.  While of Brady's hardware is impressive, I'm not entirely convinced that Brady was better than Drew Brees.   

 

For example, Brees has more 5,000 yard seasons than Brady and Mahomes combined.   As well as six seasons completing over 70% of his passes.  The guy was incredible.  

 

Do Brady and Mahomes have the rings because they were better QBs or because they played on better teams with better coaching staffs?   

 

OJ was a phenomenal player who played on bad teams.  For example, the day OJ gained 273 yards, the QB was the inept Gary Marangi who went 4-19 for 29 yards.  OJ got all those yards despite the defense focusing exclusively on him.  It's not OJ's fault the Bills didn't win championships.  

[Jay_Fixit]

Bruce

then OJ

[Utah John]

14 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Josh gets the nod because QB is so much more important than RB and DE in the modern game.  If you are starting a franchise and get to select one player, its not even a decision.

When OJ was playing, RB was the most important offensive position.  Now it's QB.

 

When Bruce was playing, DE was the most important defensive position.  Now, I really don't know.  You can make a case for pass rushers, LBs, CB, and safeties.  

 

OJ and Josh are clearly the best player on their team.  OJ played behind an O line constructed specifically to set him loose.  Bruce was on a loaded Bills team, and on defense he had a lot of co-conspirators, which helped him succeed.

 

It all comes down to what you saw yourself and what you remember.  

 

 

[Utah John]

2 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

That was really my biggest gripe with Kelly in the postseason.  He played OK and even great in some games, but never really showed up in any of the Super Bowls.

 

Thurman Thomas would've been MVP had Norwood made that kick.

Thurman deserved to be MVP regardless of who won that first SB. And the Bills would have won if Kelly hadn't insisted on being a hero.  Belichick was the DC for the Giants, and he gambled that the 51-3 Bills and Kelly in particular would be too cocky to just let Thurman run and run.  

[Utah John]

4 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

And QB stats are extremely inflated today to the point where lots of mediocre QBs have better lifetime stats than many Hall of Fame QBs...

 

 

In adding to the conversations, FWIW there are 92 first ballot HOFers in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

 

Jim Kelly, Bruce Smith, and OJ Simpson were all inducted in their first year of eligibility.

 

Shockingly, Thurman Thomas didn't make his first year.  This was a one-time league MVP, a player who led the league in scrimmage yards for years in a row, and incidentally the guy who kept Barry Sanders on the bench in college.  I have never understood why Thomas wasn't a first-ballot HOFer.

4 hours ago, mannc said:

So is OJ…

I agree with you on that, but a lot of fans look at the total yards other backs have, or remember the amazing skills of Barry Sanders.  I do not care.  OJ was the best combination of speed, size, moves, and determination I've ever seen in a RB.  

[Kirby Jackson]

8 hours ago, Harold Jackson said:

Goff and Hurts don't hold a f_____ candle to a man who went to 4 SBs in a row.  Kelly IS the Bills. He is THE most important Bill in history, next to Bill Bradley ( I'm just kind of adding  him for his so called life accomplishments. I'm assuming  he was under center when they beat San Diego. Even though Washington has been nothing more than a criminal to the public lol).. and OJ.

 

 

Kelly is a very important Bill. There’s no doubt. He was the steward of the greatest run in franchise history. He might not have been one of the 4 best players on those teams. Bruce, Thurman and Andre were better players for sure. You could make an argument, talent wise, that Bennett was as well. By the nature of him being a QB, he was important. 
 

I actually think that the Goff or Hurts comparison is quite fair. Their teams are winning a lot. They’ve each been to the Super Bowl and could go again. They are Pro Bowl QBs. No one considers them the best QB in the league though. That’s who Kelly was. If we put our fond memories of that era aside, and look at it objectively, that was kind of who he was. He was more like Troy Aikman than he was like Josh Allen. The gap from Allen to Kelly is already pretty wide (even Kelly would admit that). It’s only going to grow over the next decade. 

7 hours ago, FireChans said:

Man you are gonna die for the Kelly is Goff-tier take.

 

its accurate but that’s never stopped anyone 

Allen has already surpassed Kelly as the best QB in Bills history.

 

He surpassed him in 2021 tbh. 
 

Kelly is still a wall of fame/hall of Famer and has some pelts on the wall that no one will likely ever do, but to win a football game in 2024 or 1994, there’s no contest tbh.

Lol, I don’t mean it as an insult. I mean it as a “pump the brakes.” Those guys are good. Those guys will be WOF players for their respective franchises. With continued team success, they each will have a shot at the HOF. Feel free to substitute Aikman, Fouts or Moon. 

Edited Tuesday at 11:09 AM by Kirby Jackson

[Kirby Jackson]

5 hours ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

Comparing Kelly to Goff and Hurts makes no sense to me.  Do you have Goff and Hurts in the Hall of Fame? Not saying Kelly is a top 3 Bill but imo if you're gonna do a best player in history you absolutely have to consider the era they played in.

See above. In a nutshell, Kelly was a 5 time Pro Bowl player that went to 4 Super Bowls. He was a steward of some of the greatest offenses in history. Goff is 30 and about to be a 4 time Pro Bowl player with potentially his 2nd Super Bowl appearance. By next year, Goff’s numbers for his career will all surpass Kelly’s.
 

Now, it would be foolish to not take into account the era. Obviously gross numbers now are going to surpass that of the past. Both guys have won and distributed the ball to elite playmakers. Kelly is a better player historically than Goff. If (big if) Goff plays 5 more years and goes to 2 more Super Bowls, that discussion will be a little uncomfortable for some.
 

The point was that Kelly was never the best QB in the league. He was never in that discussion by people other than Bills fans. He was in the discussion with guys like Aikman and Moon. The guys that come just after the top tier, almost exactly like one would view Hurts or Goff now. 
 

I don’t want to derail this thread by making it a Kelly conversation. He was left off the list because there isn’t a reasonable argument to be made that he was one of the 3 best football players to play for the Bills. If the conversation was the “3 most important players to play for the Bills” he would definitely be on there. Those 2 things aren’t interchangeable though.

Edited Tuesday at 08:46 AM by Kirby Jackson