It's still entirely Josh Allen

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

The point disputed is that THAT PLAY is indicative of how much this offense needs Josh to work.

 

The point disputed is the things that Josh does on that play and similar plays ROUTINELY is more than what virtually every other single QB in the league does to make their offenses go.

 

Sure, a completed pass can never be “entirely Josh” because someone has to catch the ball. That’s kinda silly semantics. 

The bottom line that is extremely obvious to me, is that the Bills not only ask Josh to do more than every other QB in the league, they NEED it and, most importantly, he usually delivers. 

I consider that to be part and parcel with “the offense is all Josh Allen.”

 

It isn't silly semantics. It is the literal meaning of the words. I mean of you want to pretend words mean things other than what they mean, go ahead. But don't expect everyone else to just fall in line.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It isn't silly semantics. It is the literal meaning of the words. I mean of you want to pretend words mean things other than what they mean, go ahead. But don't expect everyone else to just fall in line.

“No play can entirely be because of the QB” is the take?

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

“No play can entirely be because of the QB” is the take?

 

No. That isn't the take. The Bills yesterday were not entirely Josh Allen. That's the take. Hasn't changed at all since this started. The Bills had three elite performances yesterday. Josh Allen's was the most important because an elite QB is always the most important piece you can have in the NFL. Buy those other elite performances had big impacts on the game, as did the really good playcalling. Does Josh put the cape on more than other NFL QBs? Yes. Because he can and they can't. That also is not in dispute. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Remember all the people that said the high number of interceptions didn't matter? 

Well look what happens when Josh plays a little safer! Nearly unstoppable offense.

 

I will offer one critique. The slide at the Detroit 20 yard line. I understand he thought that was probably enough to win the game. In hindsight we know the defemse wasn't holding two three score leads. Hopefully in the playoffs he keeps  churning for the endzone.  He had two guys nearing him but they were both already chasing him at an angle. He probably gets at least ten more yards and maybe scores if he keeps running. 

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Remember all the people that said the high number of interceptions didn't matter? 

Well look what happens when Josh plays a little safer! Nearly unstoppable offense.

 

I will offer one critique. The slide at the Detroit 20 yard line. I understand he thought that was probably enough to win the game. In hindsight we know the defemse wasn't holding two three score leads. Hopefully in the playoffs he keeps  churning for the endzone.  He had two guys nearing him but they were both already chasing him at an angle. He probably gets at least ten more yards and maybe scores if he keeps running. 

No way he slides on that play under different circumstances 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

The point disputed is that THAT PLAY is indicative of how much this offense needs Josh to work.

 

The point disputed is the things that Josh does on that play and similar plays ROUTINELY is more than what virtually every other single QB in the league does to make their offenses go.

 

Sure, a completed pass can never be “entirely Josh” because someone has to catch the ball. That’s kinda silly semantics. 

The bottom line that is extremely obvious to me, is that the Bills not only ask Josh to do more than every other QB in the league, they NEED it and, most importantly, he usually delivers. 

I consider that to be part and parcel with “the offense is all Josh Allen.”

Patrick Mahomes makes ridiculous plays too so I guess that means the Chiefs offense has always been all Mahomes?

 

If going off script is your best evidence is all Josh Allen, its pretty poor.  
 

You admitted you were wrong about Keon Coleman about a month ago but seems like you’re taking that back.  Its only Josh Allen on offense…

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No. That isn't the take. The Bills yesterday were not entirely Josh Allen. That's the take. Hasn't changed at all since this started. The Bills had three elite performances yesterday. Josh Allen's was the most important because an elite QB is always the most important piece you can have in the NFL. Buy those other elite performances had big impacts on the game, as did the really good playcalling. Does Josh put the cape on more than other NFL QBs? Yes. Because he can and they can't. That also is not in dispute. 

If Josh doesn’t put on the cape for the first two drives and get us a 14 point lead making the plays that only he makes, we likely lose that game.

 

Despite Ty Johnson having the game of his life.

 

Despite Spencer Brown playing extremely well.

 

Despite James Cook having some great runs. 

Despite Joe Brady probably calling his best game of the year. 
 

Despite Ed Oliver seemingly making half a season’s of plays in 1 game.

 

It’s honestly not a debate.

 

Other people can do good things or great things. That’s wonderful. The Bills lose without Superman doing Superman things.

35 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Patrick Mahomes makes ridiculous plays too so I guess that means the Chiefs offense has always been all Mahomes?

 

If going off script is your best evidence is all Josh Allen, its pretty poor.  
 

You admitted you were wrong about Keon Coleman about a month ago but seems like you’re taking that back.  Its only Josh Allen on offense…

My evidence for the offense being all Josh Allen is him winning MVP with Mack Hollins playing the most snaps at WR on the team.  

My evidence for Josh Allen being the entire offense is that he has 900 yards of offense and 10 TD’s in his last two games. And he would have 11 if not for a soft call at the end last night.

[MJS]

I hate this way of thinking. Nobody ASKS Josh to do it. He does it because he chooses to. Josh is Josh because of Josh.

 

And it is such bologna anyways. The Bills have an excellent running game. He has plenty of weapons. He is amazing, but he certainly has help out there. He has one of the best olines in the NFL.

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

If Josh doesn’t put on the cape for the first two drives and get us a 14 point lead making the plays that only he makes, we likely lose that game.

 

Despite Ty Johnson having the game of his life.

 

Despite Spencer Brown playing extremely well.

 

Despite James Cook having some great runs. 

Despite Joe Brady probably calling his best game of the year. 
 

Despite Ed Oliver seemingly making half a season’s of plays in 1 game.

 

It’s honestly not a debate.

 

Other people can do good things or great things. That’s wonderful. The Bills lose without Superman doing Superman things.

Because he plays QB in the NFL. That's how it goes. It is the most demanding job in pro sports and it takes an elite QB to have a chance at a superbowl.

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, MJS said:

I hate this way of thinking. Nobody ASKS Josh to do it. He does it because he chooses to. Josh is Josh because of Josh.

 

And it is such bologna anyways. The Bills have an excellent running game. He has plenty of weapons. He is amazing, but he certainly has help out there. He has one of the best olines in the NFL.

Because he plays QB in the NFL. That's how it goes. It is the most demanding job in pro sports and it takes an elite QB to have a chance at a superbowl.

You don’t watch enough NFL games if you think Josh is playing like other QB’s this year.

[MJS]

23 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You don’t watch enough NFL games if you think Josh is playing like other QB’s this year.

I never made that argument.

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, MJS said:

I never made that argument.

He isn’t just affecting the game “playing QB” was my point.

 

Jared Goff had a helluva game. He’s had a great year.

 

There’s high level QB play, and there’s 1 of 1 QB play. Josh is giving us the second and is 1-1 in his last two games, not just playing nearly mistake free, but making plays that only he can make.

There’s probably some folks that think the difference between a Goff and Josh on this team would have us 9-5 instead of 11-3. I would argue it’s closer to 5-9. That’s how much Josh is doing.

[MJS]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He isn’t just affecting the game “playing QB” was my point.

 

Jared Goff had a helluva game. He’s had a great year.

 

There’s high level QB play, and there’s 1 of 1 QB play. Josh is giving us the second and is 1-1 in his last two games, not just playing nearly mistake free, but making plays that only he can make.

There’s probably some folks that think the difference between a Goff and Josh on this team would have us 9-5 instead of 11-3. I would argue it’s closer to 5-9. That’s how much Josh is doing.

Josh is playing out of his mind. I agree with that. He also benefits from good players around him, a great oline, great coaching and scheme, including a good running game. In previous years he had to do a lot more to will the team to victory, especially when our oline was average and we had a middling run game.

 

We could play the "what if" game, but it is futile. There is no way to know what it would be like if Josh was switched with another player. I don't like going down that road because it is 100% speculation and not worth arguing (for me, at least).

Edited Tuesday at 05:44 AM by MJS

[FireChans]

59 minutes ago, MJS said:

Josh is playing out of his mind. I agree with that. He also benefits from good players around him, a great oline, great coaching and scheme, including a good running game. In previous years he had to do a lot more to will the team to victory, especially when our oline was average and we had a middling run game.

 

We could play the "what if" game, but it is futile. There is no way to know what it would be like if Josh was switched with another player. I don't like going down that road because it is 100% speculation and not worth arguing (for me, at least).

I’m not what ifing.

 

im trying to quantify the impact of what Josh does vs what another QB does who by all accounts is playing really good football.

[NewEra]

11 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

There were multiple off schedule throws like that to Cook and Johnson without which our first several drives would have ended

 

It was one of the most impressive QB performances I can remember tbh

So much that I’d argue that he’s currently playing at a higher level than any QB ever.  He’s always had the highest ceiling and it looks like he may be actually be close to reaching that ceiling.  

[HappyDays]

Skimming the last few pages and for a moment I just want to take a step back and appreciate where we're at as a fanbase. Does anyone else ever think about the times when we were coming into training camp wondering if like Matt Cassel would be the answer? I think about it somewhat regularly. I make it a point not to forget that I lived through those times even though it feels like an eternity ago. Back when the raging debate was "is it too soon to pull EJ Manuel for Kyle Orton" I couldn't even imagine that a player like this could wear a Bills jersey, or maybe any jersey. Now the raging debate is whether Allen is the greatest Bill of all time, and on his current pace it will soon be whether he's one of the greatest players of all time. I really don't want to take it all for granted. The past version of myself who lived and died with every Jeff Tuel OTA rep deserves that.

[MJS]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I’m not what ifing.

 

im trying to quantify the impact of what Josh does vs what another QB does who by all accounts is playing really good football.

You can't quantify something with speculation, like when you said replacing Allen with Goff would turn the Bills into a 5 win team. There is just no way to quantify that. It is 100% guess work.

 

But if the question is: Who would I rather have, Goff or Allen? I would choose Allen. There are plenty of actual metrics, over their careers, to make an easy case for Allen over Goff, and just about every other starting QB in the NFL, perhaps including Mahomes, especially lately.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

If Josh doesn’t put on the cape for the first two drives and get us a 14 point lead making the plays that only he makes, we likely lose that game.

 

Despite Ty Johnson having the game of his life.

 

Despite Spencer Brown playing extremely well.

 

Despite James Cook having some great runs. 

Despite Joe Brady probably calling his best game of the year. 
 

Despite Ed Oliver seemingly making half a season’s of plays in 1 game.

 

It’s honestly not a debate.

 

Other people can do good things or great things. That’s wonderful. The Bills lose without Superman doing Superman things.

My evidence for the offense being all Josh Allen is him winning MVP with Mack Hollins playing the most snaps at WR on the team.  

My evidence for Josh Allen being the entire offense is that he has 900 yards of offense and 10 TD’s in his last two games. And he would have 11 if not for a soft call at the end last night.

 

I have said all along we don't win Sunday without Josh. But we don't win without the other things on your list above either. Ergo - not entirely Josh. Unless you want to redefine "entirely" as meaning "single biggest contributory factor."

 

The single biggest contributory factor to the win was obviously Josh Allen. Are we good enough around Josh to beat the other top teams in the NFL without him pulling his cape on 4 or 5 times a game? No. Is that partly because when you begun having cap charges of over $30m a year on your QB that is just your lot? To an extent, sure. Is it partly the thing we have talked about ad nauseum about having lots and lots of good players but only 1 great player? Yep. 

1 hour ago, MJS said:

You can't quantify something with speculation, like when you said replacing Allen with Goff would turn the Bills into a 5 win team. There is just no way to quantify that. It is 100% guess work.

 

But if the question is: Who would I rather have, Goff or Allen? I would choose Allen. There are plenty of actual metrics, over their careers, to make an easy case for Allen over Goff, and just about every other starting QB in the NFL, perhaps including Mahomes, especially lately.

 

Yea the Bills are not a 5 win team with Jared Goff. He is a really good Quarterback. Are they an 11 win team that looks like being a 13 or 14 win team, no. But the Bills are still a playoff team with Jared Goff. If the comparator is Kirk Cousins maybe the Bills win 7 or 8 games. If it's Bryce Young they probably only have a win or two more than Carolina does with him. 

[Einstein]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No. That isn't the take. The Bills yesterday were not entirely Josh Allen. That's the take. Hasn't changed at all since this started. The Bills had three elite performances yesterday. Josh Allen's was the most important because an elite QB is always the most important piece you can have in the NFL. Buy those other elite performances had big impacts on the game, as did the really good playcalling. Does Josh put the cape on more than other NFL QBs? Yes. Because he can and they can't. That also is not in dispute. 

 

I don’t think anyone is arguing that Josh is blocking for himself, throwing it himself, and then receiving his own passes. It’s not *literally* all Josh Allen. Obviously other players are involved.

The point being made is, remove Josh from the equation and replace him with any other QB and we lose on Sunday.

 

But… Replace Cook and Johnson with any halfway decent RB tandem and we still win.

 

Replace our WR’s with any halfway decent WR’s and we still win.

 

Saying it’s all Allen doesn’t mean he is literally the only person on the field. It means that he is the only irreplaceable player on the field. The rest of the guys are interchangeable parts.

 

And we’ve seen that in action. Coleman goes down? We still win. Kincaid goes down? We still win. O-Linemen goes down? We still win.

 

Its the Josh Allen show.

Edited Tuesday at 11:31 AM by Einstein

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I don’t think anyone is arguing that Josh is blocking for himself, throwing it himself, and then receiving his own passes. It’s not *literally* all Josh Allen. Obviously other players are involved.

The point being made is, remove Josh from the equation and replace him with any other QB and we lose on Sunday.

 

But… Replace Cook and Johnson with any halfway decent RB tandem and we still win.

 

Replace our WR’s with any halfway decent WR’s and we still win.

 

Saying it’s all Allen doesn’t mean he is literally the only person on the field. It means that he is the only irreplaceable player on the field. The rest of the guys are interchangeable parts.

 

And we’ve seen that in action. Coleman goes down? We still win. Kincaid goes down? We still win. O-Linemen goes down? We still win.

 

Its the Josh Allen show.

 

That actually isn't what people are arguing. Because there has never been any dispute that we don't win Sunday without Josh Allen. We don't beat the Chiefs without Josh Allen. Even if you replace him with a good QB like Goff. I have said that repeatedly. The hyperbole has all been on the other side of this debate. 

[Royale with Cheese]

7 hours ago, FireChans said:

If Josh doesn’t put on the cape for the first two drives and get us a 14 point lead making the plays that only he makes, we likely lose that game.

 

Despite Ty Johnson having the game of his life.

 

Despite Spencer Brown playing extremely well.

 

Despite James Cook having some great runs. 

Despite Joe Brady probably calling his best game of the year. 
 

Despite Ed Oliver seemingly making half a season’s of plays in 1 game.

 

It’s honestly not a debate.

 

Other people can do good things or great things. That’s wonderful. The Bills lose without Superman doing Superman things.

My evidence for the offense being all Josh Allen is him winning MVP with Mack Hollins playing the most snaps at WR on the team.  

My evidence for Josh Allen being the entire offense is that he has 900 yards of offense and 10 TD’s in his last two games. And he would have 11 if not for a soft call at the end last night.

So snaps are now more indicative of targets of who is a contributor?

 

Allen hasn’t been sacked in a month.  Let me guess…offensive line has absolutely nothing to do with it.  They aren’t helping even a little bit.