Defense is built to stop average and below offenses.

[BearNorth]

With today's roster moves, we have 6 Edge and 6 Interior DL's on the active roster.  I guess quantity over quality?

[JohnNord]

4 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

sorry - I should have said that they're one of a handful of teams that hasn't scored more than 30 points in any game this season.  Way to ignore the larger point, though.  

Because your information correct and the overall point was insignificant
 

[Bermuda Triangle]

11 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Sure, defense struggled and got off to a bad start.  They also only allowed 9 points over the next 3 quarters.   The Bills could only score 10.  
 

There were multiple times that the Bills offense had a shot to get back into the game and they failed.  There’s a reason Diggs exploded on the sideline - that side of the ball also played like crap.  

The defense completely sucked that game and should have been able to advantage of an injured Bengals OL.  But the offense was almost as bad - which goes against the “defense always lets down Josh in the playoffs narrative”

 

No, the defense allowed 13 points over the next 3 quarters.  Both times the Bills scored in that game, the predictably meek playoff defense of the Bills rolled out the red carpet, and allowed Bengals scores.

 

I'm not going to foolishly defend the Bills' offense in that game - they were bad.  But this thread is about the playoff defense, and as you admitted "the defense completely sucked that game".

3 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Because your information correct and the overall point was insignificant
 

Coming from the King of Misinformation and Irrelevance.

[JohnNord]

1 minute ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

No, the defense allowed 13 points over the next 3 quarters.  Both times the Bills scored in that game, the predictably meek playoff defense of the Bills rolled out the red carpet, and allowed Bengals scores.

 

I'm not going to foolishly defend the Bills' offense in that game - they were bad.  But this thread is about the playoff defense, and as you admitted "the defense completely sucked that game".

Coming from the King of Misinformation and Irrelevance.

LOL unlike some people here, I actually fix my errors quickly.  You responded before I had a chance.  
 

I’ve already detailed why I discussed the offense in that playoff loss.  It’s because they were equally as big of a reason why the team was sent packing.  

[Bermuda Triangle]

1 minute ago, JohnNord said:

LOL unlike some people here, I actually fix my errors quickly.  You responded before I had a chance.  
 

I’ve already detailed why I discussed the offense in that playoff loss.  It’s because they were equally as big of a reason why the team was sent packing.  

Maybe you can fix your grammar too?

 

 

"Because your information correct and the overall point was insignificant"

[JohnNord]

1 minute ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Maybe you can fix your grammar too?

 

 

"Because your information correct and the overall point was insignificant"

🤣🤣🤣 

[BigAl2526]

I'd guess McDermott would say that defensive lapses are due to lack of discipline in maintaining assignments: things like gap control,

containment on the outside, communication in zone coverage etc.  I'm sure that's part of the problem.  I'm not sure how big a part though.

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

15/97/ 1td in our playoff game this year says otherwise.  Sean's dominant defense held Pacheco to a mere 6.5 yards per run.  

You are aware he’s just a running back.  Correct?

[Solomon Grundy]

8 hours ago, TD716 said:

I feel we needed both WR and 1T. Keon is a young wr and will get better but he wasn’t getting it done until Amari came in. 

I felt like they were using Coleman correctly in the offense early in the season. I'd still like to see him with some RAC opportunities 

[Mikie2times]

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-playoffs-injury-report-bengals-rule-out-two-offensive-linemen-vs-bills-in-divisional-round/amp/
 

Let’s not forget, 3 of 5 starting offensive lineman for the Bengals didn’t even play in that game 

[Solomon Grundy]

I'd like to see that tackling machine from UB (Dolac) on the Bills roster next season 

Edited December 15 by Solomon Grundy

[Boatdrinks]

53 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-playoffs-injury-report-bengals-rule-out-two-offensive-linemen-vs-bills-in-divisional-round/amp/
 

Let’s not forget, 3 of 5 starting offensive lineman for the Bengals didn’t even play in that game 

Almost forgot about that , but it made the defensive performance even more infuriating at the time. 

[T master]

10 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Finding a Bruce Smith or Myles Garrett is just as rare as finding a franchise QB. It's not realistic 

 

Better expectations would be a Sean Jones, Aaron Schobel, Hugh Douglas type dlineman 

 

Aaron Schobel Really Good player !!

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

You are aware he’s just a running back.  Correct?

It sounds like he really believes a running back could account for 2 scores

 

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-playoffs-injury-report-bengals-rule-out-two-offensive-linemen-vs-bills-in-divisional-round/amp/
 

Let’s not forget, 3 of 5 starting offensive lineman for the Bengals didn’t even play in that game 

 

Ten points….TEN

1 hour ago, BigAl2526 said:

I'd guess McDermott would say that defensive lapses are due to lack of discipline in maintaining assignments: things like gap control,

containment on the outside, communication in zone coverage etc.  I'm sure that's part of the problem.  I'm not sure how big a part though.

It’s the whole chicken vs. the egg argument.  I’m assuming that both have been issues 

[Mikie2times]

13 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

It sounds like he really believes a running back could account for 2 scores

 

 

Ten points….TEN

It’s the whole chicken vs. the egg argument.  I’m assuming that both have been issues 

This is the first time I recall in 20+ years of being on this site somebody is arguing a position nobody is talking about and is not the subject of the thread. Congrats on the special award. 

[folz]

6 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

It’s the violence in which the defense has declined against capable offenses in the playoffs. If you look at how this defense has performed in the playoffs against teams that actually have a starting caliber NFL QB, the only even above average showing we have had is vs a Greg Roman offense in a very bad weather environment.
 

Nobody would ever question how his defense would perform vs Skyler Thompson, Mason Rudolph, and Mac Jones. It’s just an extension of the regular season at that point. Which nobody would questions either. 

 

So then you look at blowing 16-0 lead to the Houston, then allowing newg 500 yards of offense to

the Colts, then being totally decimated by the Bengals and the Chiefs 3 times. In those Chiefs and Bengals games would we have taken even an average performance? Nothing crazy. Just baseline average how they did all season? If we even got that we would have won at least half those games.

 

The precision at which good teams carve this system up in the postseason is stunning. So while we have had a lot of success, I think at this point it’s perfectly logical to wonder what the hell is going on with this system and if it’s capable of doing what we need when the games matter more. Perhaps it is just the talent, but that brings on another conversation given we haven’t been very shy of investing on that side of the ball.

 

Believe me, I do understand where you guys are coming from in a way, I just think that too many people ignore too much context. 

 

To the bolded:

-Well, we won the Colts game and held them to 24 points despite the yardage. Their season average was 28.2 points/game.

-The Texans season average was 24.1 points/game. They scored 22 points against us. And it took a bad fumble by a raw Josh Allen, an overturned TD by the sky refs on a mistake by the Texans, and a lucky, miracle play with Watson escaping the sandwich sack for them to win (in overtime, btw)---not sure that I can put any of that on coaching.

-I know you won't agree, but no NFL team in history would have won that Bengals playoff game if they had been through what the Bills had been through that season and the amount of injuries they had on top of it (well maybe the Brady/Belichick Pats would, but that's it). The Bengals season average was 26.1 points per game. We allowed them 27.

-The AFC championship game vs. the Chiefs, we just weren't ready yet, as a team. Didn't help that our WR corps was severely banged up and the refs let KC maul our receivers, while our defense couldn't breathe on their receivers. But either way, KC was the better team at that point. Their season average was 29.6 points/game. we gave up 38 points.

-The other two Chiefs games, our defense was ravaged by injuries. So, the fact that at the end of regulation of both games combined, the Chiefs had only 3 points more than us is actually pretty impressive (despite the losses). 

 

So, when you really break things down, it always comes down to the same thing...it's not really McDermott or his defense in the playoffs...it's just the damn Chiefs. And yet, we have played them more closely than any other team in the league, with a 4-4 overall record and two of their wins (in the playoffs) being intensely close, last second wins against a decimated Bills defense. Maybe...MAYBE...we could have pulled out the 13 seconds game with different decisions by the coach, but honestly, how many of the other playoff losses were really due to bad coaching? 

 

Think about this. Our playoff record under McDermott is 5-6. At the end of regulation in 4 of the 6 games combined, the Bills were down by 10 points. 10 points over 4 games (obviously two of those games went into overtime). Do you realize how close Sean is to a 9-2 playoff record? 10 points across 4 games. Subtract the JAX game and it's 3 points total over three games (HOU, KC, KC) for an 8-3 playoff record. I just believe that we are closer than some of you guys think. We just need a year where some of the bounces go our way.

[Obviously his record wouldn't be 9-2 or 8-3 if he won those games because the Bills would have played further games, so more wins and/or losses would have been added to that.]

 

5 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'd also argue that alot of these qbs you've listed (Tua, Purdy, Carr, Dak) are hardly elite and maybe not even "above average".  Just because an organization is dumb enough to pay them elite money doesn't mean they are. 

 

Didn't call any of those QBs elite. The bar that was set by the posts I was responding to (including this thread's OP) was above average. To me that meant say a top 16 QB. I would argue that most people would put those guys in the top half of the league for most of their careers. You could question Purdy because he's so young, but did you see his stats from last year? In fact, in 2023, Tua led the league in passing, Dak was 3rd, and Purdy was 5th. Even Carr was still 13th. How about passing TDs last year? Dak was #1, Purdy #3, Tua #5, and Carr #10. Are you really telling me those QBs are average at best? Have you seen some of the other QB play in this league?

 

The only QBs I called elite were Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Jackson, and Burrow. And Sean still has 8 wins against those QBs (with three of the losses to those QBs being by the narrowest of margins---two in OT and one by 3 points).

Edited December 15 by folz

[JohnNord]

2 minutes ago, folz said:

 

Believe me, I do understand where you guys are coming from in a way, I just think that too many people ignore too much context. 

 

To the bolded:

-Well, we won the Colts game and held them to 24 points despite the yardage. Their season average was 28.2 points/game.

-The Texans season average was 24.1 points/game. They scored 22 points against us. And it took a bad fumble by a raw Josh Allen, an overturned TD by the sky refs on a mistake by the Texans, and a lucky, miracle play with Watson escaping the sandwich sack for them to win (in overtime, btw)---not sure that I can put any of that on coaching.

-I know you won't agree, but no NFL team in history would have won that Bengals playoff game if they had been through what the Bills had been through that season and the amount of injuries they had on top of it (well maybe the Brady/Belichick Pats would, but that's it). The Bengals season average was 26.1 points per game. We allowed them 27.

-The AFC championship game vs. the Chiefs, we just weren't ready yet, as a team. Didn't help that our WR corps was severely banged up and the refs let KC maul our receivers, while our defense couldn't breathe on their receivers. But either way, KC was the better team at that point. Their season average was 29.6 points/game. we gave up 38 points.

-The other two Chiefs games, our defense was ravaged by injuries. So, the fact that at the end of regulation of both games combined, the Chiefs had only 3 points more than us is actually pretty impressive (despite the losses). 

 

So, when you really break things down, it always comes down to the same thing...it's not really McDermott or his defense in the playoffs...it's just the damn Chiefs. And yet, we have played them more closely than any other team in the league, with a 4-4 overall record and two of their wins (in the playoffs) being intensely close, last second wins against a decimated Bills defense. Maybe...MAYBE...we could have pulled out the 13 seconds game with different decisions by the coach, but honestly, how many of the other playoff losses were really due to bad coaching? 

 

Think about this. Our playoff record under McDermott is 5-6. At the end of regulation in 4 of the 6 games combined, the Bills were down by 10 points. 10 points over 4 games (obviously two of those games went into overtime). Do you realize how close Sean is to a 9-2 playoff record? 10 points across 4 games. Subtract the JAX game and it's 3 points total over three games (HOU, KC, KC) for an 8-3 playoff record. I just believe that we are closer than some of you guys think. We just need a year where some of the bounces go our way.

[Obviously his record wouldn't be 9-2 or 8-3 if he won those games because the Bills would have played further games, so more wins and/or losses would have been added to that.]

 

 

Didn't call any of those QBs elite. The bar that was set by the posts I was responding to (including this thread's OP) was above average. To me that meant say a top 16 QB. I would argue that most people would put those guys in the top half of the league for most of their careers. You could question Purdy because he's so young, but did you see his stats from last year? In fact, in 2023, Tua led the league in passing, Dak was 3rd, and Purdy was 5th. Even Carr was still 13th. How about passing TDs last year? Dak was #1, Purdy #3, Tua #5, and Carr #10. Are you really telling me those QBs are average at best? Have you seen some of the other QB play in this league?

 

The only QBs I called elite were Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Jackson, and Burrow. And Sean still has 8 wins against those QBs (with three of the losses to those QBs being by the narrowest of margins).

THANK YOU!

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, TD716 said:

Please change up the defensive philosophy this off season . Defense feasts on average and below QB’s and offensive lines. This coupled with Josh gets you double digit win totals each year. In the playoffs you very rarely see below average. Good qb’s,with time, pick apart our defense. Also sick of mobile DT’s. Jeff Wright, Kyle Williams and most of our current ones come to mind. Please either draft or pickup a mountain for the middle to at least stop the run. 

 

There isn't a defense in the world that is better against good teams than bad teams. That's the way it works. That's why you want your team to be a good team, so that they can operate better against the units they face.

 

DaQuan, when playing well, is a mountain in the middle and plays terrific against the run.

 

In any case, the Bills D is consistently excellent. With one major problem. They can't rush the passer as well as they should. That's not a scheme thing. They don't have that one guy. Only about 5 - 10 teams do, but the Bills are not among them. And it's hard to get those guys when you're consistently drafting 25th or later.

Edited December 15 by Thurman#1

[JohnNord]

21 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

This is the first time I recall in 20+ years of being on this site somebody is arguing a position nobody is talking about and is not the subject of the thread. Congrats on the special award. 

We’re never gonna see eye to eye on this topic.  In a few months, we should have a better idea on where this argument stands. 
 

In all honesty, I have to say it’s been fun going back and forth.  I appreciate how you’ve stuck to debating the issues w/o resorting to insults etc.

Edited December 15 by JohnNord

[Billsflyer12]

11 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

That was last year.

 

I'm talking about this season.

 

Also, despite them trampling our defense in that playoff game, they still only won by 3 points. It's not like they blew us out.

Chiefs are 1 of only 5 teams to not have scored 30 points this season.  The other 4 (Jets, Patriots, Raiders, Giants) have combines record of 10-42.  Their offense has been bad this year.