Belichick to UNC

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Wasn't it a late growth spurt?

 

Maybe but that alone can't be responsible for going from 0 star recruit to best player ever.

[DrDawkinstein]

3 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

One of the greatest coaches of all time, but why do we assume he can game plan for a college team? The guy couldn’t even win in the NFL without Brady. What makes people think he knows modern college football offense?

 

Where you say "he couldnt win without Brady", I say "no one can win with Mac Jones".

 

Even the best/your favorite coaches... swap Mac Jones in for Josh and McD isnt winning. Swap McCorkle in for Mahomes and Reid isnt winning. Swap him in for Goff and Campbell/Johnson arent winning.

 

It's both. You need the coach and the QB.

 

Even Brady needed Arians to win another SB, and didnt do nearly as well once he pushed Bruce out of the HC spot.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

It's always fascinating to me how scouting is such an imperfect science.

 

Allen was a 0 star recruit and might be the best football player of all time.

 

How could so many scouts and talent evaluators get it so wrong?

 

 

Yeah exposure is obviously a big part of it.   Spencer Brown was also a zero-star and then athletically tested like a HOF'er at the combine.   In he and Allen's cases they played in small, rural communities without much exposure or a lot of high level competition.   

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah exposure is obviously a big part of it.   Spencer Brown was also a zero-star and then athletically tested like a HOF'er at the combine.   In he and Allen's cases they played in small, rural communities without much exposure or a lot of high level competition.   

Allen was also 6'1"as a high school senior. He grew a ton after the recruiting phase.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Allen was also 6'1"as a high school senior. He grew a ton after the recruiting phase.

 

 

True but I think this part gets overplayed a bit.   If you look at the top 80 or so QB recruits in the 2024 class 10 of them were listed at UNDER 6 feet tall.   And a bunch hovering at just 6' or 6'1".   These are all 3 star and up types.  Not being 6'5" played a part but I think it was way more the lack of exposure and competition.   Clearly he had athleticism and a strong arm from the tape we see from time to time.      

[ProcessTruster]

couldn't care less

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

True but I think this part gets overplayed a bit.   If you look at the top 80 or so QB recruits in the 2024 class 10 of them were listed at UNDER 6 feet tall.   And a bunch hovering at just 6' or 6'1".   These are all 3 star and up types.  Not being 6'5" played a part but I think it was way more the lack of exposure and competition.   Clearly he had athleticism and a strong arm from the tape we see from time to time.      

Sure, but while there is "growth," there is also "GROWTH." Allen fits in the latter category.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Sure, but while there is "growth," there is also "GROWTH." Allen fits in the latter category.

 

The topic isn't how he went from zero star to one of the greatest NFL QB specimens ever though.........it's how was he a total zero-star non-recruit in HS.   The very slightly below average height doesn't explain that.   I think it's easier for Allen to always bring that size up rather than explain over and over that his father didn't think he needed to drag him to every camp and participate in 7 on 7 teams etc..  That would kinda' sounds like he's blaming his old man because other families were going to those lengths.  But that extra exposure and perhaps the perceived proof of determination to succeed that playing football year round provides is very important to "earning" rank and getting recruited.   

[PoundingDog]

Scouting is inexact science. A lot is in projection on where the player CAN become.

 

My theory is guys like Trevor Lawrence went thru all the prep school starting from young age, played at one of the big college with pro level talent, maximized his ceiling. Guys like Allen went on to play at D-1 college QB purely based on talent of his, both athletically and mentally. Give him some pro-training and talent, he has more level to go up to.

 

But projects are just that projects. There are much more failures than finding an Allen. You can probably win at NFL level with a guy like Lawrence if you have the culture and proper talent. That's why people tend to draft the "safer" prospects. 

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The topic isn't how he went from zero star to one of the greatest NFL QB specimens ever though.........it's how was he a total zero-star non-recruit in HS.   The very slightly below average height doesn't explain that.   I think it's easier for Allen to always bring that size up rather than explain over and over that his father didn't think he needed to drag him to every camp and participate in 7 on 7 teams etc..  That would kinda' sounds like he's blaming his old man because other families were going to those lengths.  But that extra exposure and perhaps the perceived proof of determination to succeed that playing football year round provides is very important to "earning" rank and getting recruited.   

in this vein- is it possible to account for some Allen's sort of unprecedented NFL 'leap' by just accounting for the fact that he had fewer reps at the position than his peers due to not attending all the premier QB camps and whatnot?

[PoundingDog]

It is actually interesting to see the Bills drafting philosophy shifted. 2017 when McDermott was making the picks (we assume he had final say over Whaley), it's more production based guys like White, Jones, Dawkins, Milano. None of them has super athletic traits but raw in technique.

 

Then Beane came in and he pivoted more to projection based on athletic traits. Allen, Edmunds, Oliver (undersized but quickest first step), Ford, Rousseau, Spencer Brown, Elam etc. The result is mixed. Some developed, some don't pan out. Luckily the critical one, Allen was on the positive ledger.

 

In recent years Beane kind of shifted more towards production side, especially in later rounds (which has been Rams' strategy under McVay). Coleman, Bernard, Shakir are positive ones.

Edited December 12 by PoundingDog

[Captain Hindsight]

Sounds like this is a done deal. He must have seen he wasn't getting an NFL gig

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/unc-bill-belichick-reportedly-finalizing-head-coach-deal/ar-AA1vGzDh?ocid=BingNewsSerp

[GaryPinC]

8 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Sounds like this is a done deal. He must have seen he wasn't getting an NFL gig

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/unc-bill-belichick-reportedly-finalizing-head-coach-deal/ar-AA1vGzDh?ocid=BingNewsSerp

 

His girlfriend's gotta be plssed.   Leonardo De Belichick is diving into the co-ed pool!

[machine gun kelly]

6 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Sounds like this is a done deal. He must have seen he wasn't getting an NFL gig

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/unc-bill-belichick-reportedly-finalizing-head-coach-deal/ar-AA1vGzDh?ocid=BingNewsSerp

He’s not stupid as he knows the NFL has passed him.  I respect what he’s done, but now he can use his credibility to recruit.  Everyone knows it’s one of the most important aspects of a D1 program.  He’s saying all the right things publicly stating his job is to coach as an NFL prep factory.  What top recruit wouldn’t want to go to a 6 time SB coach, amd credited right ir wrong for Brady.

 

If top talent decides to go there, he’ll look like the hero for building the program, hand it off to his son in a couple of years, and probably work as a consultant to the team.

 

Honestly, I don't care about him anymore.  His mediocrity in the end was great.

[Matt_In_NH]

Those 18 year old kids are gonna tell him how it works and jump in the portal when he makes them run laps

[Big Turk]

12 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Those 18 year old kids are gonna tell him how it works and jump in the portal when he makes them run laps

 

Maybe, but that says more about them than it does about him.

Edited December 11 by Big Turk

[harmonkillebrew]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

True but I think this part gets overplayed a bit.   If you look at the top 80 or so QB recruits in the 2024 class 10 of them were listed at UNDER 6 feet tall.   And a bunch hovering at just 6' or 6'1".   These are all 3 star and up types.  Not being 6'5" played a part but I think it was way more the lack of exposure and competition.   Clearly he had athleticism and a strong arm from the tape we see from time to time.      

Some guys mature later than others.  So while he was only 6'1" he also probably wasn't as strong or strong armed as he would become. 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

57 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Those 18 year old kids are gonna tell him how it works and jump in the portal when he makes them run laps

 

Folks keep talking about this, but young kids were lining up to play for his best buddy and coaching twin, Nick Saban. Saban may have been an even bigger hard-ass than BB, and players only transferred out of Bama AFTER Saban left.

 

I think he'll be able to deal with the kids because they know he will get them ready for the NFL. I think it's much tougher for a Saban/Belichick to handle young NFL players who feel like they already know everything because they've "made it".

 

Or I could be wrong and the whole thing blows u in Belichicks face. But I think that is less likely.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Some guys mature later than others.  So while he was only 6'1" he also probably wasn't as strong or strong armed as he would become. 

 

 

Yes, but again, that's not why he was a zero star QB.   We're not talking about him being 5'7" 160.   There was a 5 star QB last year who was 6'1".   I think people just get too caught up in the idea that he was not considered even physically capable of becoming a good college QB.   Every year when the story gets told his HS self gets a little smaller though.  Here is the story from 2019:

 

"At the time, Josh was about 6-foot-3 and 180 pounds. He hadn't attended the elite quarterback camps and wasn't a widely known prospect. His high school team didn't participate in many 7-on-7 camps because Josh and many of his teammates were busy playing baseball and other sports. He was the leading scorer on his basketball team and also pitched on the baseball team, reaching 90 mph with his fastball."

 

Like I said,  Allen simply didn't follow the same path as most QB recruits do.   He didn't transfer to a school where competition was better, he didn't go to all the camps and play 7 on 7 football year round etc..  

 

 

[Buffalo716]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

My take on the pros and cons from Bill's perspective.

 

Pros:

- total control

- east coast

- transfer portal and NIL means its possible to turn a programme around quickly

- ACC is weak meaning 12 team playoff is achievable maybe even year 1

- chance to be only the 4th man to win a National Championship and a Superbowl

- avoids any risk of failing in a new NFL spot and damaging his legacy.

 

Cons:

- he will hate recruiting

- his schemes are about smarts and no mental mistakes (not well suited to teenagers?)

- limited practice time

- won't break Shula's record

- doesn't get a chance to prove he can build an NFL winner without Tom.

There's a good dose of man match and zone match defenses in college ... A lot of combination coverages

 

He shouldn't have a super hard time finding smart DBs to play his system 

 

He just needs to get more versatile zone match kids not press bump and run specialists 

 

But his scouts would be able to look for that at the camps and see how these kids react on the fly to certain coverages

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

True but I think this part gets overplayed a bit.   If you look at the top 80 or so QB recruits in the 2024 class 10 of them were listed at UNDER 6 feet tall.   And a bunch hovering at just 6' or 6'1".   These are all 3 star and up types.  Not being 6'5" played a part but I think it was way more the lack of exposure and competition.   Clearly he had athleticism and a strong arm from the tape we see from time to time.      

Yes there's tons of quarterbacks on the circuit right now around 6'1 and shorter 

 

Bonafide high School prospects 

 

Josh Allen coming from a tiny division where he didn't go to the camps that kids were going at since they were in eighth grade... 

 

Was definitely more of a reason than anything else 

 

If he was even at canisius he would have been recruited right out of high school

Edited December 11 by Buffalo716