the last time a healthy McVay-led healthy Rams offense played a healthy Bills defense (2020)

[dave mcbride]

36 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

You forgot to mention the result of that 2020 meeting

Bills 35 - Rams 32

 

That was the game that featured 

1) an interception on an Allen to Kroft pass, that everyone but the refs thought was a tie and thus by rule goes to the receiver

2) Aaron Donald horse-collaring Allen in the pocket resulting in a strip-sack AND an unsportsmanlike conduct against Allen - he couldn't believe what Donald did was legal

3) the 4Q "bar brawl" play, which is meekly scored as "Josh Allen pass incomplete short left. Penalty on Josh Allen: Face Mask (15 Yards), 15 yards (no play)".  In this play, Josh grabbed a Rams DB by the face mask, slung him into the path of an oncoming Rams LB knocking them both off their feet like bowling pins, backpedaled, stiff armed Aaron Donald, and turned what looked like a 30 yd sack into an incomplete pass that left the Bills with a chance (losing only 15 by penalty).  All the announcer could say is "That's One Strong Dude" about Josh Allen.

4) an opportune DPI on LA on 4th and 8, giving the Bills one more chance.  Otherwise we lose 28 -32.

 

In hard fought games between two great teams, victory often does depend on a handful of plays.

 

Yes.  One of two things will happen.  Either the Bills D will come out fired up and ready to prove something.

 

Or this year's Bills aren't good enough to contend for a Championship.

I remember all of that! All I'm saying is that the Rams' offense gave the Bills D a near-historic beatdown that game. In the Allen era, I think it's the most yards they've ever given up.

[folz]

3 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Rinse and repeat. Same story for 8 years. McD feasts on bad QBs and can't stop the above average ones. 

 

Is this really true? Or is it like every other coach/team...of course you have a better record against bad teams and the teams with good QBs will be harder wins. But, is your statement true for McDermott?

 

[I only included QBs we've played that would be considered above average (per your statement). I didn't list the average or bad QBs. Though I may have included a couple that don't quite hit the bar.]

 

Last 6 years (not including 2017 and 2018 because we weren't a good team yet):

 

2019: Beat: Dak Prescott 

          Lost to: Tom Brady (twice), Lamar Jackson, Deshaun Watson (on an amazing/lucky play by Watson to seal the comeback)

 

2020: Beat: Tua T. (twice), Jared Goff, Derek Carr, Russell Wilson, Justin Herbert, Big Ben, Philip Rivers, Lamar Jackson, Cam Newton

           Lost to: Patrick Mahomes (twice), Kyler Murray (on the last-second Hail Murray play)

 

2021: Beat: Tua T. (twice), Mahomes, Matt Ryan

          Lost to: Big Ben, Mahomes (13 seconds), Brady (on a bad ref call in OT)

 

2022: Beat: Lamar Jackson, Mahomes, Rodgers, Goff, Tua (twice)

           Lost to: Tua (heat game), Cousins (by 3 points in OT due to a bad snap), Burrow (playoffs after Damar situation)

 

2023: Beat: Mahomes, Dak, Herbert, Tua (twice)

           Lost to: Burrow, Wilson (by 2 points), Hurts (in OT after a miracle field goal), Mahomes (by a field goal)

 

2024: Beat: Mahomes, Tua (twice), Murray, Rodgers, Purdy

           Lost to: Stafford (by 2 points), Lamar, Stroud

 

So, from my list, that is 32 wins and 20 losses vs. those QBs. Now, if you want to just say higher-end QBs only (ruling out guys like Rivers, Big Ben, Cam---due to age; and guys like Tua, Carr, Cousins, Ryan, etc, who are definitely above-average, but maybe not considered tops in the league), I come up with like 12 QBs (Mahomes, Jackson, Rodgers, Brady, Burrow, Stafford, Wilson, Herbert, Prescott, Hurts, Stroud, Murray, Purdy). McD's record vs. those QBs is 16-15. Could be better, but again, every coaches record against top-end QBs will be much worse than their overall record, and if you are a good team, probably closer to a .500 record vs. top QBs, as it is for McDermott. But, I think the record proves that he doesn't just beat bad QBs only and loses to any above-average QB.

 

McD's record against only the ELITE QBS (and I think I'm being a bit generous by including Burrow---I'm not sold yet that he's in the category of Allen and the rest of the guys listed below):

Mahomes: 4-4

Jackson: 2-2

Rodgers: 2-0

Brady: 0-3

Burrow: 0-2

              8-11

 

Again, could be better, but he's still got 8 wins against them (which counters your statement). Plus, two of the losses vs. Mahomes, and one vs. Brady were by the thinnest of margins. Could just as easily be an 11-8 record.

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

Bills players - as well as some retired players and coaches - mention that the Bills defense is complicated and adept at disguises.  

For lesser QBs and coaches, it can be a hard puzzle to figure out.  So we often look good.

But McVay and other smart coaches and QBs understand what they're looking at.  At the same time, we know what they're trying to do on offense.  Neither team has a distinct scheme advantage because each side understands the other.  

 

But if their players are better than our players, as is sometimes the case, they'll move the ball.   Yesterday, the Rams OL was better than our DL.  Their receivers were better than our DBs.  They won.  

As Burrow and his WR's have shown in two games.

 

 

1 minute ago, folz said:

 

Is this really true? Or is it like every other coach/team...of course you have a better record against bad teams and the teams with good QBs will be harder wins. But, is your statement true for McDermott?

 

[I only included QBs we've played that would be considered above average (per your statement). I didn't list the average or bad QBs. Though I may have included a couple that don't quite hit the bar.]

 

Last 6 years (not including 2017 and 2018 because we weren't a good team yet):

 

2019: Beat: Dak Prescott 

          Lost to: Tom Brady (twice), Lamar Jackson, Deshaun Watson (on an amazing/lucky play by Watson to seal the comeback)

 

2020: Beat: Tua T. (twice), Jared Goff, Derek Carr, Russell Wilson, Justin Herbert, Big Ben, Philip Rivers, Lamar Jackson, Cam Newton

           Lost to: Patrick Mahomes (twice), Kyler Murray (on the last-second Hail Murray play)

 

2021: Beat: Tua T. (twice), Mahomes, Matt Ryan

          Lost to: Big Ben, Mahomes (13 seconds), Brady (on a bad ref call in OT)

 

2022: Beat: Lamar Jackson, Mahomes, Rodgers, Goff, Tua (twice)

           Lost to: Tua (heat game), Cousins (by 3 points in OT due to a bad snap), Burrow (playoffs after Damar situation)

 

2023: Beat: Mahomes, Dak, Herbert, Tua (twice)

           Lost to: Burrow, Wilson (by 2 points), Hurts (in OT after a miracle field goal), Mahomes (by a field goal)

 

2024: Beat: Mahomes, Tua (twice), Murray, Rodgers, Purdy

           Lost to: Stafford (by 2 points), Lamar, Stroud

 

So, from my list, that is 32 wins and 20 losses vs. those QBs. Now, if you want to just say higher-end QBs only (ruling out guys like Rivers, Big Ben, Cam---due to age; and guys like Tua, Carr, Cousins, Ryan, etc, who are definitely above-average, but maybe not considered tops in the league), I come up with like 12 QBs (Mahomes, Jackson, Rodgers, Brady, Burrow, Stafford, Wilson, Herbert, Prescott, Hurts, Stroud, Murray, Purdy). McD's record vs. those QBs is 16-15. Could be better, but again, every coaches record against top-end QBs will be much worse than their overall record, and if you are a good team, probably closer to a .500 record vs. top QBs, as it is for McDermott. But, I think the record proves that he doesn't just beat bad QBs only and loses to any above-average QB.

 

McD's record against only the ELITE QBS (and I think I'm being a bit generous by including Burrow---I'm not sold yet that he's in the category of Allen and the rest of the guys listed below):

Mahomes: 4-4

Jackson: 2-2

Rodgers: 2-0

Brady: 0-3

Burrow: 0-2

              8-11

 

Again, could be better, but he's still got 8 wins against them (which counters your statement). Plus, two of the losses vs. Mahomes, and one vs. Brady were by the thinnest of margins. Could just as easily be an 11-8 record.

Nice summary but I would point out that Rogers was way past his prime and no longer elite by any measure;  Jackson has a unique style that McD's D does a good job against and the 4 wins against KC have been more the result of Allen playing great.

 

 

[DCofNC]

3 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

And yet his team is 6-6 and struggles to score points most weeks. 

Wait till JA gets tired of this BS, wants to be close to his lady and forces his way to LA to replace Stafford.  Minds are going to melt.

[UKBillFan]

5 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Wait till JA gets tired of this BS, wants to be close to his lady and forces his way to LA to replace Stafford.  Minds are going to melt.

I’d love to see McVay coach a Josh-run offense. But in Buffalo, not LA.

 

I appreciate that’s a pipe dream.

[Sojourner]

Watching that game again is rough on everything except the offense. 
 

It’s like scrimmage and Stafford is wearing a red, non contact, jersey. 
 

After the Rams first drive, whenever the defense got into the backfield for making a negative play, they missed. The only one who made a was Von. That’s tragic. 
 

Defensive line played like ass. But a performance of the game that was just as bad goes to Rasul Douglas. Holy smokes was he atrocious. 

[appoo]

7 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

Bills players - as well as some retired players and coaches - mention that the Bills defense is complicated and adept at disguises.  

For lesser QBs and coaches, it can be a hard puzzle to figure out.  So we often look good.

But McVay and other smart coaches and QBs understand what they're looking at.  At the same time, we know what they're trying to do on offense.  Neither team has a distinct scheme advantage because each side understands the other.  

 

But if their players are better than our players, as is sometimes the case, they'll move the ball.   Yesterday, the Rams OL was better than our DL.  Their receivers were better than our DBs.  They won.  

That last paragraph means the scheme simply doesn’t matter

[SCBills]

7 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

Bills players - as well as some retired players and coaches - mention that the Bills defense is complicated and adept at disguises.  

For lesser QBs and coaches, it can be a hard puzzle to figure out.  So we often look good.

But McVay and other smart coaches and QBs understand what they're looking at.  At the same time, we know what they're trying to do on offense.  Neither team has a distinct scheme advantage because each side understands the other.  

 

But if their players are better than our players, as is sometimes the case, they'll move the ball.   Yesterday, the Rams OL was better than our DL.  Their receivers were better than our DBs.  They won.  

Hence the biggest non-coaching difference between the Bills and Chiefs being Chris Jones. 
 

We don’t have that one guy that can just end a drive.  And sometimes that’s all you need in these games… See, Dawkins getting walked into Allen as Shakir broke open in the end zone, pass incomplete, missed FG, game. 

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, appoo said:

That last paragraph means the scheme simply doesn’t matter

 

I actually think scheme matters a lot.  I love the X and Os of football.

 

But sometimes the chess game played between the opposing coaches is played to a draw.  So the team with the better players wins.  

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, SCBills said:

Hence the biggest non-coaching difference between the Bills and Chiefs being Chris Jones. 
 

We don’t have that one guy that can just end a drive.  And sometimes that’s all you need in these games… See, Dawkins getting walked into Allen as Shakir broke open in the end zone, pass incomplete, missed FG, game. 

 

Back in the 90s we had Biscuit and Bruce.  Now we have no one. 

 

Our two biggest names on D are Milano and Von who in their prime weren't Biscuit and Bruce.  And neither is playing anything near their prime right now.  

 

[CincyBillsFan]

5 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

I’d love to see McVay coach a Josh-run offense. But in Buffalo, not LA.

 

Funny you should say this.  Did you notice how in the post game interview McVay was over the top in his praising of Allen?  My first thought was that when Stafford retires in 2 - 3 years McVay is setting up a situation where he could entice a 30/31 year old Allen to come play football for him.  Yea I know there's a contract in place but by that time if the Bills haven't gotten over the hump and we're still having this same discussion.............................

 

 

[Dr.Sack]

The road record vs good teams is impressive. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

10 hours ago, corta765 said:

McVay is the best offensive mind in the NFL imo... He is creative beyond boundaries and has done it with multiple QBs while rotating pieces in and out.

 

Buffalo and McD got him good in 2022 which is rare, great game with a bummer outcome but I really have no concerns and in a way like the fact they got some attrition to toughen them up.

Belichek b smacked him the one superbowl.   Just saying.  

[Dan Darragh]

14 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202009270buf.htm

 

The Bills gave up 478 yards and allowed 7.25 yards per play. They blew a 28-3 lead and in the second half, and the Rams moved the ball at will. In the second half, the Rams ran 23 plays on four straight TD drives for 201 yards (with the longest playing being 31 yards). That is 8.74 yards per play. Two of the plays were one-yard TD runs, so take those successful plays out, and they gave up 203 yards on 21 plays (9.7 yards per play).

 

Clearly, McVay knows how to attack this defensive scheme. 

 

(In the September 2022 game, Stafford was dealing with an elbow injury, Van Jefferson was out, and their o-line had gotten banged up during preseason.)

 Trust the process.

[BullBuchanan]

14 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

Bills players - as well as some retired players and coaches - mention that the Bills defense is complicated and adept at disguises.  

For lesser QBs and coaches, it can be a hard puzzle to figure out.  So we often look good.

But McVay and other smart coaches and QBs understand what they're looking at.  At the same time, we know what they're trying to do on offense.  Neither team has a distinct scheme advantage because each side understands the other.  

 

But if their players are better than our players, as is sometimes the case, they'll move the ball.   Yesterday, the Rams OL was better than our DL.  Their receivers were better than our DBs.  They won.  

Other smart coaches know what we're doing, yes. I'm not so sure we know what they're doing.

[Doc Brown]

3 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Belichek b smacked him the one superbowl.   Just saying.  

That was pry his best game plan (plus give credit to Flores) in his career at least in all his Super Bowls as a coach and coordinator.  That includes his game plan against us in '91 and the Rams in '01 (especially with the cheating).  It's also why I can't stand the sentiment among some people that Belichick was nothing without Brady.

[GunnerBill]

45 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

That was pry his best game plan (plus give credit to Flores) in his career at least in all his Super Bowls as a coach and coordinator.  That includes his game plan against us in '91 and the Rams in '01 (especially with the cheating).  It's also why I can't stand the sentiment among some people that Belichick was nothing without Brady.

 

The code was cracked by Matt Patricia about 6 weeks from the end of that season when he was Detroit Head Coach. Bear front, and ignore all the pre-snap motion. Just literally pretend it doesn't exist. The Lions still got smoked because they were under talented, but Vic Fangio (then the Bears DC) saw it and ran the same scheme the next week, shut the Rams down and beat them. For about a year after that it was the way to play the Rams. It took McVay a long time to find a counter. Obviously Belichick and Flores managed it as well as anyone, but it was Patricia who worked it out. I think Patricia is really smart but not a football coach. Wouldn't surprise me if Bill gets back in as a HC if Patricia ends up in an Ernie Adams type backroom role. 

[HomeTeam]

I remember that COVID game. Josh Allen played incredible that game. That was a Neo moment for me when I said, "he is the one."

 

I'm really interested in seeing how they respond to Detroit. We can't seem to find the answer against component quarterbacks like Burrow, Stafford and Mahomes in big moments. I'm hoping that this was a learning opportunity for them before the playoffs roll around. 

[BobbyC81]

16 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

7-6, btw. They did have some serious injury issues in the early part of the season. Both Nacua and Kupp have only started 8 games, and they had o-line injuries earlier too. Last season, they were 8th in points and 7th in yards. 

They had a few games where both Kupp and Nacua were out

[corta765]

8 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Belichek b smacked him the one superbowl.   Just saying.  

He learned and grew from that which he has said as much. It also showed Goff's limitations at that point as a signal caller.

 

My short list of coaches who if available id fire McD immediately to hire is as followed:

 

Reid- self explained

McVay- Wonderkid who has evolved successfully while having an offense copied be everyone

Jim Harbaugh- Wins every where he goes, he got railroaded in SF by Baalke and already has LAC rolling. I would love to see him with Allen.

 

I am not as high on Kyle Shanahan as others and the losses in big moments is not something I want here when our coach already does that