Fire McD and Hire Belichek after we lose AGAIN in the playoffs

[What a Tuel]

2 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Fair point but does keeping McDermott make sense when his defense constantly disappoints in the playoffs against good teams. Sean has been here what 7, 8 years so it's not like he hasn't been given a fair chance. I give him all the credit in the world for changing the culture of the organization from a loser to a winner. He has been one of the best regular season coaches for a long time now. But shouldn't he be held accountable for the playoff failures which have been going on for years now.

 

Has the defense disappointed against good teams? I mean they held teams not named kansas city to an average of 20 points a game. Thats beatable when you have Josh Allen.

 

The problem is you allow 35 points a game to Kansas City in the postseason and thats 60% of our playoff failure. The rest of the league averages about 29 points per game.

 

Its just terrible timing for both McDermott and Allen that Reid and Mahomes exist in the league at the same time. If we think McDermott would win a SB if they didnt, then why the heck would we ever get rid of him?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

It would also be a full rebuild on the defensive side of the ball if Ben Johnson takes over as he will want to bring in his own DC. Same thing on the offensive side of the ball as Johnson would want to run the system that he has built. I am not against hiring Johnson as he appears to be a hot commodity to becoming a head coach. Assuming the Bills did move on from McDermott there would changes to both sides of the ball no matter who the new coach is.

Oh it would yea but Ben Johnson isn’t pushing 80 while that happens 🤣. That’s the part that I think you’re not getting lol And he can kind of look for a dc that lines up more with the players he has (should he want to do that).  I think belichick would definitely gut it all 

 

bills are pretty well balanced on the offensive side I don’t think you have to burn that all down even with Ben. Ben could def work with who we have but I doubt belichick would bring in an OC that could 

 

 

 

Edited December 9 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Has the defense disappointed against good teams? I mean they held teams not named kansas city to an average of 20 points a game. Thats beatable when you have Josh Allen.

 

The problem is you allow 35 points a game to Kansas City in the postseason and thats 60% of our playoff failure. The rest of the league averages about 29 points per game.

 

Its just terrible timing for both McDermott and Allen that Reid and Mahomes exist in the league at the same time. If we think McDermott would win a SB if they didnt, then why the heck would we ever get rid of him?

I really do think it’s injury related against kc in the playoffs…I’m really hoping we get that rematch.  It’s the other teams I’m more worried about.  I think we went all in on personnel to slow the chiefs down and pounding the run made a bit of a resurgence while that happened.
 

66% of the games we had either 0 linebackers or our starting corners were Dane Jackson/levi Wallace against kc in the playoffs 

Edited December 9 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[DrDawkinstein]

12 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

It would take a lot to get me to stop following the Bills. Obviously, if they left WNY I’d be on my merry way. Probably second on that list would be hiring Belichick. You don’t start building anything by hiring a HC who will be 73 years old next season. I don’t hate him as a coach as much as I’d hate the decision to bring in a guy for one or two seasons. He just wants to catch Shula. That would be an idiotic decision by the owners, and I’d look at them in a different light (not in a good way). 

 

IF we were to hire someone, I’d want them to be younger, have a better concept of offensive football and not be a complete idiot when it came to personnel issues. He can coach defense, but he was one of the worst Co-GMs (along with his dog) in the league. 

 

The only place I'll disagree with you is on the "start building" statement.

 

We arent starting a build. We ARE BUILT. We just need someone to drive this built machine to the top of the mountain.

 

I agree Belichick is too old, but we arent looking for a 10-20 year tenure. Josh is 6 seasons in. He has, what, maybe 6 years left? We need someone who can take us to a Championship in the next 6 years. And the sooner, the better.

 

I pretty much agree on all your other points and reasoning.

12 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

It would also be a full rebuild on the defensive side of the ball if Ben Johnson takes over as he will want to bring in his own DC. Same thing on the offensive side of the ball as Johnson would want to run the system that he has built. I am not against hiring Johnson as he appears to be a hot commodity to becoming a head coach. Assuming the Bills did move on from McDermott there would changes to both sides of the ball no matter who the new coach is.

 

I think all this talk about changing coaches = full rebuild is completely inaccurate. We're already built.

 

We need some tweaks and additions, sure. The same as if McD stays.

 

But we can change the Coaching staff without much turnover. Just like the Eagles did.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

9 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The only place I'll disagree with you is on the "start building" statement.

 

We arent starting a build. We ARE BUILT. We just need someone to drive this built machine to the top of the mountain.

 

I agree Belichick is too old, but we arent looking for a 10-20 year tenure. Josh is 6 seasons in. He has, what, maybe 6 years left? We need someone who can take us to a Championship in the next 6 years. And the sooner, the better.

 

I pretty much agree on all your other points and reasoning.

There will inevitably be a modest amount of roster turnover at minimum if you bring in a new coach.  It doesn’t really work like what you’re describing.  Guys have to learn to play in a new system that they aren’t super well suited for and it will take a few years to bring in enough players that fit.   Even if you aren’t thrilled with mcd I think the superbowl chances probably drop in the short term and should increase further down the road assuming you get the hire right. 
 

people seem to think of the nfl playoffs like it’s the mlb/nba playoffs and it just isn’t.  Even if you have far and away the best roster, best coach, and the bye you’ve still gotta basically win 3 60/40 type games in a row.  There’s a huge amount of luck involved.  A new head coach could come in and still not put you over the top in Josh’s prime even if they get everything right.
 

 I mean look at the head coaches that have taken mahomes down in the playoffs.  One was bill b who had the classic chiefs never get a chance in ot game against them which easily could’ve been how our game went with a little luck, one was Todd Bowles who was an average at best coach with a stacked team, and one was Zac Taylor who bengals fans hate and it was also a game that could’ve easily gone the other way.  

two of those guys are mcd level or worse 

 

Edited December 9 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[boyst]

16 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

I would rather have the Lions OC as the HC if McDermott was gone.

Whatever happened to Cooter?

[Augie]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The only place I'll disagree with you is on the "start building" statement.

 

We arent starting a build. We ARE BUILT. We just need someone to drive this built machine to the top of the mountain.

 

I agree Belichick is too old, but we arent looking for a 10-20 year tenure. Josh is 6 seasons in. He has, what, maybe 6 years left? We need someone who can take us to a Championship in the next 6 years. And the sooner, the better.

 

I pretty much agree on all your other points and reasoning.

 

Anyone who comes in will shuffle the deck to some degree. We will need to rebuild to a significant degree. How many times have we seen that? Different schemes require different skill sets. We automatically create some holes in our roster, because we are built to do what we do. It’s not nearly as simple as getting into the driver seat of the same car. Offensive and defensive schemes will change.  Don’t kid yourself, that’s how it works every time. 

 

I’m not saying another coach couldn’t succeed. We obviously have Josh and a lot of talent, but don’t underestimate the upheaval. It’s a serious gamble, and we are already one of the best teams in the league. It was an ugly loss, but I’m not losing my mind over it like so many people do. We are still in this! 

[DrDawkinstein]

16 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

There will inevitably be a modest amount of roster turnover at minimum if you bring in a new coach.  It doesn’t really work like what you’re describing.  Guys have to learn to play in a new system that they aren’t super well suited for and it will take a few years to bring in enough players that fit.   Even if you aren’t thrilled with mcd I think the superbowl chances probably drop in the short term and should increase further down the road assuming you get the hire right. 

 

That really isnt true in the modern era.

 

They didnt turn over much in Philly.

They didnt turn over much in Miami when they went from Flores to McDaniel (and those were VASTLY different coaches).

They didnt turn over much in Houston when they brought in Ryans.

They didnt turn over much in LA when the Chargers just brought in Harbaugh, it's essentially the 2023 team with an upgrade at HC.

 

When the roster (and most importantly QB) is there, you bring in a coach to work with what you have.

 

With Josh locked up, and most of our main talent signed, there wouldnt be much more turnover than we'd see if McD stays. There would be no reason to clean any house on Offense. And we have regular turnover on Defense anyways (but I would bet would still re-sign Groot and Benford. Maybe not Bernard). But we need all new DL and DBs anyways.

 

11 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Anyone who comes in will shuffle the deck to some degree. We will need to rebuild to a significant degree. How many times have we seen that? Different schemes require different skill sets. We automatically create some holes in our roster, because we are built to do what we do. It’s not nearly as simple as getting into the driver seat of the same car. Offensive and defensive schemes will change.  Don’t kid yourself, that’s how it works every time. 

 

I’m not saying another coach couldn’t succeed. We obviously have Josh and a lot of talent, but don’t underestimate the upheaval. It’s a serious gamble, and we are already one of the best teams in the league. It was an ugly loss, but I’m not losing my mind over it like so many people do. We are still in this! 

 

No we wouldnt, and no it doesnt (anymore).

 

We've seen it play out like that a million times in Buffalo during the drought when we didnt have a franchise QB or much talent around him. No one is walking into Buffalo and cleaning house on Offense. And we need the same additions/tweaks on Defense anyways.

 

Far less upheaval than folks are worried about.

 

 

Edited December 9 by DrDawkinstein

[sleeby]

Never mind old belichek, what about Tom Brady? 

Edited December 9 by sleeby

[Dillenger4]

Our D sucks. end thread.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

14 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

That really isnt true in the modern era.

 

They didnt turn over much in Philly. They didnt turn over much in Miami when they went from Flores to McDaniel (and those were VASTLY different coaches). They didnt turn over much in Houston when they brought in Ryans.

 

When the roster (and most importantly QB) is there, you bring in a coach to work with what you have.

 

With Josh locked up, and most of our main talent signed, there wouldnt be much more turnover than we'd see if McD stays. There would be no reason to clean any house on Offense. And we have regular turnover on Defense anyways (but I would bet would still re-sign Groot and Benford. Maybe not Bernard). But we need all new DL and DBs anyways.

 

No we wouldnt, and no it doesnt (anymore).

 

We've seen it play out like that a million times in Buffalo during the drought when we didnt have a franchise QB or much talent around him. No one is walking into Buffalo and cleaning house on Offense. And we need the same additions/tweaks on Defense anyways.

 

Far less upheaval than folks are worried about.

I mean don’t people want a full defensive scheme shift? I was assuming that’s the case lol. You can find someone to take over at DC and keep things relatively the same but is that what everyone wants?  If not I really don’t get getting rid of mcd at all isn’t the whole issue people are raising that his scheme isn’t well suited for the playoffs? Canning him for an unproven first time head coach and rolling with the same defensive players/scheme seems like an unnecessary massive risk 

 

The dolphins had a ton of future assets when they pulled the rug out from Flores so it was an easier transition.  Wasn’t Ryans on the Texans staff and then promoted?  These are not good comparisons to our situation 

Edited December 9 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Augie]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

That really isnt true in the modern era.

 

They didnt turn over much in Philly. They didnt turn over much in Miami when they went from Flores to McDaniel (and those were VASTLY different coaches). They didnt turn over much in Houston when they brought in Ryans.

 

When the roster (and most importantly QB) is there, you bring in a coach to work with what you have.

 

With Josh locked up, and most of our main talent signed, there wouldnt be much more turnover than we'd see if McD stays. There would be no reason to clean any house on Offense. And we have regular turnover on Defense anyways (but I would bet would still re-sign Groot and Benford. Maybe not Bernard). But we need all new DL and DBs anyways.

 

No we wouldnt, and no it doesnt (anymore).

 

We've seen it play out like that a million times in Buffalo during the drought when we didnt have a franchise QB or much talent around him. No one is walking into Buffalo and cleaning house on Offense. And we need the same additions/tweaks on Defense anyways.

 

Far less upheaval than folks are worried about.

 

There will certainly be SOME upheaval, all for a gamble on a new HC. How many HC hires are ultimately successful? How many will out-perform McD’ production over the last 5 years? The odds are pretty long there, imo. 

 

Everybody loves Ben Johnson, but I’ve heard people questioning if he’s really HC material. I prefer the devil (according to some) that we know. I believe McD a better HC now than he was 5 years ago. I’d like that to continue. Even little improvements now may get us over the top. You’re willing to throw that away on a gamble for a new guy, I disagree. 🤷‍♂️

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I mean don’t people want a full defensive scheme shift? I was assuming that’s the case lol. You can find someone to take over at DC and keep things relatively the same but is that what everyone wants?  If not I really don’t get getting rid of mcd at all isn’t the whole issue people are raising that his scheme isn’t well suited for the playoffs? Canning him for an unproven first time head coach and rolling with the same defensive players/scheme seems like an unnecessary massive risk 

 

We need a massive overhaul on D even if McD stays. Need at least 3 new DL players, and will likely be drafting DL in the 1st again. Need at least 1 starting CB. Need to figure out the Safety spots.

 

The only churn we'd be adding would be likely replacing Bernard and Williams. Maybe.

 

And no, the issue isnt that the scheme isnt well suited for the playoffs, it's that McD isnt well suited for the playoffs because he cant win a coaching battle.

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

There will certainly be SOME upheaval, all for a gamble on a new HC. How many HC hires are ultimately successful? How many will out-perform McD’ production over the last 5 years? The odds are pretty long there, imo. 

 

Everybody loves Ben Johnson, but I’ve heard people questioning if he’s really HC material. I prefer the devil (according to some) that we know. I believe McD a better HC now than he was 5 years ago. I’d like that to continue. Even little improvements now may get us over the top. You’re willing to throw that away on a gamble for a new guy, I disagree. 🤷‍♂️

 

The next 30For30 "The 13 Seconds of Buffalo" can say "They may have never won a Super Bowl with the best player to ever wear a Bills uniform, but at least they kept the team together".

 

[DrDawkinstein]

10 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

The dolphins had a ton of future assets when they pulled the rug out from Flores so it was an easier transition.  Wasn’t Ryans on the Texans staff and then promoted?  These are not good comparisons to our situation 

 

Incorrect on the Dolphins, and incorrect on Ryans/Texans.

 

They are actually decent comparisons in that neither org turned over their rosters, and neither roster was nearly as good as the Bills roster now.

 

Not to mention the Philly and Chargers examples.

 

 

Edited December 9 by DrDawkinstein

[Augie]

9 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

We need a massive overhaul on D even if McD stays. Need at least 3 new DL players, and will likely be drafting DL in the 1st again. Need at least 1 starting CB. Need to figure out the Safety spots.

 

The only churn we'd be adding would be likely replacing Bernard and Williams. Maybe.

 

And no, the issue isnt that the scheme isnt well suited for the playoffs, it's that McD isnt well suited for the playoffs because he cant win a coaching battle.

 

It’s hard to vent like that after we win, isn’t it? Thank goodness we do it more than any other team in professional sports not named the Chiefs.

 

McD has us close to the promised land but can’t get to or over the finish line, yet. Your answer is to tear it down and do a “massive overhaul” because you want so badly to get rid of McD. Again, we just disagree. I. Feel good about where I stand here. 

Edited December 9 by Augie

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Incorrect on the Dolphins, and incorrect on Ryans/Texans.

 

They are actually decent comparisons in that neither org turned over their rosters, and neither roster was nearly as good as the Bills roster now.

I’m incorrect that Ryans got promoted from within the Texans organization therefore he was well versed on their defensive system and that is a much different situation than an outside hire? Lol. Gonna have to disagree with you there and I would go out on a limb and say you’re objectively wrong.

 

dolphins there’s certainly some gray area.  But even they are proof of the risk of turning over coaches/coordinators because Flores had those guys playing much tougher on the defensive side than anyone since has despite apparently keeping things mostly the same outside of the coordinator.  So even if your roster turnover comment is justified it’s still proof things can go sideways in a hurry with just a coordinator change.  

Edited December 9 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

It’s hard to vent like that after we win, isn’t it? Thank goodness we do it more than any other team in professional sports not named the Chiefs.

 

McD has us close to the promised land but can’t get to or over the finish line, yet. Your answer is to tear it down and do a “massive overhaul” because you want so badly to get rid of McD. Again, we just disagree. I. Feel good about where I stand here. 

 

NO IT ISNT. Please dont strawman me and purposely mis-state what I've already spent multiple posts clarifying for you.

[Augie]

10 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The next 30For30 "The 13 Seconds of Buffalo" can say "They may have never won a Super Bowl with the best player to ever wear a Bills uniform, but at least they kept the team together".

 

 

The whole “13 seconds” thing was then. This is now. People who can’t get over that may need therapy. We can all get better at our jobs over time. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I’m incorrect that Ryans got promoted from within the Texans organization therefore he was well versed on their defensive system and that is a much different situation than an outside hire? Lol. Gonna have to disagree with you there and I would go out on a limb and say you’re objectively wrong.

 

dolphins there’s certainly some gray area.  But even they are proof of the risk of turning over coaches/coordinators because Flores had those guys playing much tougher on the defensive side than anyone since has despite apparently keeping things mostly the same outside of the coordinator 

 

He didnt get promoted from within the Texans. He was DC in San Fran before he was made HC in Houston.

 

So if you cant get those basic facts right with a quick google search, we're done debating. Talk about being objectively wrong. lol

Just now, Augie said:

 

The whole “13 seconds” thing was then. This is now. People who can’t get over that may need therapy. We can all get better at our jobs over time. 

 

As evidenced by yesterday's clock management, right?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

He didnt get promoted from within the Texans. He was DC in San Fran before he was made HC in Houston.

 

So if you cant get those basic facts right with a quick google search, we're done debating. Talk about being objectively wrong. lol

Hahaha I’m a jacka** touché.  Still stand by the dolphins point though.  I have no idea what I was thinking there with Houston.  Must’ve gotten mixed up cuz he had a long playing career there 

Edited December 9 by Generic_Bills_Fan