Quarterbacks and "fake slide" controvery

[DrDawkinstein]

 

[boyst]

50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

This getting attention this week is a total red herring. 

 

There was nothing at all Lawrence did wrong in his slide on Sunday and the defender was 6 to 7 yards away and running at a different angle at the point the slide started. He adjusted his angle, raised his forearm and launched himself at Lawrence's head with the sole intention of hurting him. The suspension is entirely justified. 

 

Draggin the fake slide / out of bounds issue (which I agree is a legit issue that needs attention) into this conversation avoids us having a proper conversation about how we get some more consistency into the discipline process for intentional dirty hits. That is what we SHOULD be talking about this week.

 

i agree its a red herring but not the points about lawrence. that's not my point of responding.

 

this issue wasn't an issue when Mahomie did it. it was a little bit of an issue with Pickett. it's seldom been an issue until the defender went too far judged by people.

10 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

it's playing football. both the quarterback (who is a runner) and the defender are doing their jobs. one is supposed to move the ball down field. one is supposed to stop them.

 

it's the fake sliding and dancing that is going to cause defenders to amp up their stopping abilities/pwoer

[Steve O]

38 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

They called it roughing on epenesa even though he just set Rodgers down. 

Even Rodgers called it ridiculous. "might as well play sarcastaball"

 

[stevewin]

4 hours ago, I'm Spartacus said:

Get Up on ESPN this morning had a spot on whether or not quarterbacks are taking advantage of the slide rule. They showed the Trevor Lawrence hit (Al-Shakeer / sp.?), which was a blatant dirty hit. Also was showing the great Josh Allen run against the Steelers. To me he was NOT faking a slide. Do you think they will start flagging the QB for this? (like flopping in hockey or basketball).

Funny there have been other times on ESPN shows this week since the Lawrence injury where they've showed Josh's run in the context of fake sliding - sometimes rolling it in a loop in conjunction with Pickett's classic fake slide in college - and it also pissed me off, the Josh play is not close to a fake slide - it's just a juke

Edited December 5 by stevewin

[MJS]

Part of the problem is defenders trying to make a hit, not trying to make a tackle. They lower their helmet to deliver a blow. That is when guys like Josh Allen jump over them. It's stupid. Keep your head up and go wrap up the ball carrier and make a boring tackle.

 

If that was the mentality with defending a scrambling QB, you wouldn't have as many late hits. You'd be more aware and able to react when a slide happens. And you wouldn't have those huge, late hits.

[Not at the table Karlos]

Mahomes needs to be absolutely destroyed for his fake going out of bounds. Flagged as well.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 minutes ago, dma0034 said:

I honestly wonder whether or not sliding is saver anyways. I've definitely seen more QBs get hit when sliding and getting concussed than I remember QB injuries while running. Like the one time Allen missed a game wasn't it because he was sliding and a Patriots player hit him? Yet he's never missed time while running and not sliding? Idk, I would just like to see the statistics of QB running injuries before and after sliding became a rule

It’s much safer this year for Josh the way he’s been doing it but we’ve got people here complaining he’s ’lost a step’ when he does it 🤣

 

the later you slide the more you’re inviting a big hit from a player that can’t get out of the way in time but Al-Shaair 100% could’ve avoided his hit so he can’t use that excuse.  

[MJS]

4 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Mahomes needs to be absolutely destroyed for his fake going out of bounds. Flagged as well.

Why flagged? It isn't against the rules.

[Kelly to Allen]

9 minutes ago, Steve O said:

Even Rodgers called it ridiculous. "might as well play sarcastaball"

 

It's out of control 

3 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

It’s much safer this year for Josh the way he’s been doing it but we’ve got people here complaining he’s ’lost a step’ when he does it 🤣

 

the later you slide the more you’re inviting a big hit from a player that can’t get out of the way in time but Al-Shaair 100% could’ve avoided his hit so he can’t use that excuse.  

Allen has been sliding more and it's a good thing. His discipline from the pocket is better this year too

[Simon]

42 minutes ago, JP51 said:

but what if they took the slide rule and made it a head first slide.

 

I think they may have actually done that this year.

I'm not 100% sure but it may now be a rule that if you dive headfirst in the field of play you're still afforded protection but are marked down at the place you began the slide/dive. I doubt if it would apply at the goaline though.

[Kelly to Allen]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

It is really hard to be a defender with the rules for defenseless receivers, slides, strike zones for QB's.  They should add a penalty for embellishing.  Fake sliding does not seem like a big problem to me.  Josh embellishes though, you can get your pitchforks out if you want I love Josh but he does it......

Mel Blount and Ronnie Lott wouldn't be allowed to play in today's game. To me that's sad. 

 

 

[YattaOkasan]

Two things. 

 

First I think they should stop coaching the slide.  It provides minimal protection and is clearly causing confusion.  A head first dive would have better protection and equally end the play.  Imagine this play happens in the playoffs.  Jags would be screwed even if they won. 

 

Second I dont know why we want to give the refs more subjective calls to make.  Particularly to make a play with a subjective call a 30 yard swing. 

 

If you wanna do slide when someone is coming in you might get hit (sometimes illegally like any play).  Cause you open yourself up so much it causes the defense to salivate at getting a chance.  If QBs protect themselves better defenders are gonna wind up to crush them less.  For the going out of bounds its the same thing.  Players don't protect themselves.  I'm not sure I would flag someone who hit someone that just took a step out of bounds (exceptions of horse collars and face masks).  Make players protect their bodies better.  Yes it will come at the cost of yards but these plays are becoming so crazy cause runners arent protecting themselves as they go out.  

Edited December 5 by YattaOkasan

[Simon]

15 minutes ago, MJS said:

Part of the problem is defenders trying to make a hit, not trying to make a tackle. They lower their helmet to deliver a blow. That is when guys like Josh Allen jump over them. It's stupid. Keep your head up and go wrap up the ball carrier and make a boring tackle.

 

If that was the mentality with defending a scrambling QB, you wouldn't have as many late hits. You'd be more aware and able to react when a slide happens. And you wouldn't have those huge, late hits.

 

At no point are guys willingly going to forego the opportunity to drop the hammer on a QB, nor should they.

With Allen in particular there is also the issue of standing straight up to tackle a 6'5 250lb guy with a full head of steam; you're just going to get steamrolled.

 

3 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Mel Blount and Ronnie Lott wouldn't be allowed to play in today's game. To me that's sad. 

 

 

 

Not quite as sad as retired players killing themselves because their brains are too scrambled to find the grocery store

[Ethan in Cleveland]

The only way to fix it is eliminate the QB protections out of the pocket. They are not fair to the defender and as Rex was pointing out the QB is exposed when sliding.  It's safer for the QB to dive forward or just get tackled. 

As with many things in life, it sounded like a good idea but in actuality it makes things worse.

Penalizing head shots and shots below the knee in the pocket probably helps. Officials are not perfect but they have done an ok job determining when a hit starts above or below the knee. They need work on the calling the head shots though.  They still miss many calls and probably call a few that are incidental contact and should not be called. 

[Kelly to Allen]

6 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

At no point are guys willingly going to forego the opportunity to drop the hammer on a QB, nor should they.

With Allen in particular there is also the issue of standing straight up to tackle a 6'5 250lb guy with a full head of steam; you're just going to get steamrolled.

 

 

Not quite as sad as retired players killing themselves because their brains are too scrambled to find the grocery store

 

It's not possible to avoid long term injuries in football. ( Regardless of whether that statement is even true about concussios)

 

Violence is built into the sport of football. At a certain point it no longer is football....

 

I understand generally speaking your point. IMHO it's getting to a level that is ridiculous. We can debate what that is but that's how I see it. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

The only way to fix it is eliminate the QB protections out of the pocket. They are not fair to the defender and as Rex was pointing out the QB is exposed when sliding.  It's safer for the QB to dive forward or just get tackled. 

As with many things in life, it sounded like a good idea but in actuality it makes things worse.

Penalizing head shots and shots below the knee in the pocket probably helps. Officials are not perfect but they have done an ok job determining when a hit starts above or below the knee. They need work on the calling the head shots though.  They still miss many calls and probably call a few that are incidental contact and should not be called. 

 

Why can't we just have unnecessary roughness? It's going to be subjective regardless. Is that fair?

Edited December 5 by Kelly to Allen

[Simon]

5 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

It's not possible to avoid long term injuries in football. ( Regardless of whether that statement is even true about concussios)

 

Having sore knees that makes stairs tricky is just a bit different from wanting to die because the headaches and confusion won't stop.

[Wraith]

18 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I think they may have actually done that this year.

I'm not 100% sure but it may now be a rule that if you dive headfirst in the field of play you're still afforded protection but are marked down at the place you began the slide/dive. I doubt if it would apply at the goaline though.

That rule has been in place for at least six years based on this article. I recall Allen losing at least one rushing TD by diving head first into the head zone when the rule was applied too aggressively - back in 2019 or 2020 I believe. I feel like the officials don't apply the rule as much anymore, it may have even been retracted at this point.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24277319/ball-spotted-first-touch-head-first-dives

Edited December 5 by Wraith

[Simon]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

That rule has been in place for at least six years based on this article. I recall Allen losing at least one rushing TD by diving head first into the head zone when the rule was applied too aggressively - back in 2019 or 2020 I believe. I feel like the officials don't apply the rule as much anymore, it may have even been retracted at this point.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24277319/ball-spotted-first-touch-head-first-dives

 

I didn't realize that, thanks.

It strikes me as a solution seeking a problem; a pointless rule that solves nothing and just creates more issues.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

20 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Mel Blount and Ronnie Lott wouldn't be allowed to play in today's game. To me that's sad. 

 

 

 

I mean in that day you knew the risk as a WR going over the middle, and a QB knew the risk he was putting his WR in if he threw certain passes.  

 

At the same time... we don't want people to suffer concussions.  Those guys likely inflicted several in their careers as head hunters.  

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

2 hours ago, I'm Spartacus said:

Get Up on ESPN this morning had a spot on whether or not quarterbacks are taking advantage of the slide rule. They showed the Trevor Lawrence hit (Al-Shakeer / sp.?), which was a blatant dirty hit. Also was showing the great Josh Allen run against the Steelers. To me he was NOT faking a slide. Do you think they will start flagging the QB for this? (like flopping in hockey or basketball).

I had a big debate with my steeler fan friends over that. No way that was a fake slide. The defender wasn’t even in the same vicinity as Josh. It was clearly a juke or cut.