McD: Has your view changed?

[GoBills808]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

McDermott is absolutely better than Pederson

 

A blind squirrel can find a nut 

 

Striking iron while it's hot 

 

Right place right time 

 

I could use a thousand analogies but Sean McDermott is a team builder and a winner and a  tactician

 

Ok McDermott is better than Arians too

And Payton

And Harbaugh

 and Tomlin

And McCarthy

 

 

Better than McVay too I guess

 

[Mikie2times]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is a big one. 

 

I disagree on the second point though. I think there are multiple Superbowl winners who haven't done those and are less good coaches. But as they say once you've won it they can't take it from you.

Plenty of coaches lack the discipline to have sustained success. That is certainly not Sean. But at the same time a whole bunch of qualities like ingenuity, poise under pressure, and creativity allow you to finish first. I’m not sure that is Sean either. You’re hitting at the heart of this. Your definition of success is not the same as others. As is the case of many here. Doug Peterson is the anti Sean you could argue he showed those other qualities at a Super Bowl level the year he won. Can Sean do that? Doug could never build something that lasts, but can Sean Captain the ship thru the storm as he did that year? I don’t know. 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Plenty of coaches lack the discipline to have sustained success. That is certainly not Sean. But at the same time a whole bunch of qualities like ingenuity, poise under pressure, and creativity allow you to finish first. I’m not sure that is Sean either. You’re hitting at the heart of this. Your definition of success is not the same as others. As is the case of many here. Doug Peterson is the anti Sean you could argue he showed those other qualities at a Super Bowl level the year he won. Can Sean do that? Doug could never build something that lasts, but can Sean Captain the ship thru the storm as he did that year? I don’t know. 

Pedersons tenure w the Eagles was an unqualified success

 

If McDermott ends his in Buffalo w no championships it will be an abject failure

 

Pretending Super Bowls aren't the only meaningful metric for HCs is just cope

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

Plenty of coaches lack the discipline to have sustained success. That is certainly not Sean. But at the same time a whole bunch of qualities like ingenuity, poise under pressure, and creativity allow you to finish first. I’m not sure that is Sean either. You’re hitting at the heart of this. Your definition of success is not the same as others. As is the case of many here. Doug Peterson is the anti Sean you could argue he showed those other qualities at a Super Bowl level the year he won. Can Sean do that? Doug could never build something that lasts, but can Sean Captain the ship thru the storm as he did that year? I don’t know. 

 

My definition of what makes a great coach is different than others. I am not trying to redefine success. 

 

Sean has had a degree of success. The ultimate success is the objective standard of winning a Superbowl. 

 

In Sean's case I think winning a Superbowl would make him a great coach, because he has the rest of the resumé to support that. I don't think winning a Superbowl automatically makes someone a great coach though. Doug Pederson isn't a great coach. Never will be. 

[Mikie2times]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My definition of what makes a great coach is different than others. I am not trying to redefine success. 

 

Sean has had a degree of success. The ultimate success is the objective standard of winning a Superbowl. 

 

In Sean's case I think winning a Superbowl would make him a great coach, because he has the rest of the resumé to support that. I don't think winning a Superbowl automatically makes someone a great coach though. Doug Pederson isn't a great coach. Never will be. 

I would argue that Pederson had a better singular coaching year than any year McD ever had. He won a Super Bowl with a back up quarterback throwing haymakers the entire way. Could Sean have done that? I would say absolutely not. No way in hell. Now could Pederson ever win in the ways Sean has? With that incredible consistency? No way. But the lifetime achievement award is not something I get to celebrate.
 

Further and again sort of the heart of the issue,  you see his constant attempts and failures as a sign it will happen soon, I see them as more evidence it won’t. When statistically unlikely things start occurring in football in some instances I expect it will correct, but others I just don’t believe we fully understand why it’s occurring and it just keeps doing so. That is what I believe we have going on. 

Edited 20 hours ago by Mikie2times

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

McD is on the same level as Saint Marv. Yeah, Marv made Super Bowls but he had how many HALL OF FAMERS on both O and D?? McD has done more with less, and 13 seconds was an absolute disaster but that’s the only playoff loss I put solely on him. He’s done some self evaluation and growth while on the same team and that’s ridiculously unusual in the NFL. Usually you need to get fired and figure it out with the next team. There’s no way I would even think of changing this team/culture/vision for an unknown. After the Denver game I was off the McD train but I watched the guy self evaluate and continue to improve his game management. Sure, until we make a Super Bowl there’s going to be the debate but I can’t imagine another coach coming in here and bringing us to the promised land before Josh is out of this prime.

 

I have also noticed some self evaluation,  growth and less of an  "anal attitude" from Sean this season.  It's been very refreshing and it reflects in his players, like watching him do snow angels with JA. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The next time we lost back to back games you'd be back to "he is holding us back, the only thing preventing a Bills dynasty is Sean McDermott". When people convince themselves they've found a bogey man they rarely come off it. 

 

Only speaking for myself but if McDermott wins a Super Bowl he has a lifetime contract in my eyes. For me it isn't that I feel McDermott is a below average coach or holds the team back a ton. I recognize his strengths as a culture builder and a guy that can get the most out of his players. I just fear he cannot get us over the playoff hump because of his perennial mistakes in critical high leverage moments in close games. If he does get us over the hump, there will be nothing left for me to criticize. I don't expect a dynasty, I just expect at least one Super Bowl win before Allen retires. The longer Allen's career goes without one the antsier I get to give someone else a chance at the wheel.

 

At least for this coming offseason I will probably lay off the fire McDermott talk unless we get bounced by a clearly inferior team in the wildcard or something unforgivable like that. He's shown me enough over our win streak this year to convince me that even if we don't reach the top, he's earned another year in the team's 2nd window with our new group of core players. In that scenario ideally we manage to re-sign Cooper, invest heavily in the DL especially in the middle, and then McDermott has zero excuses heading into 2025 in a Super Bowl or bust year. That's where my mind is at.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

17 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I would argue that Pederson had a better singular coaching year than any year McD ever had. He won a Super Bowl with a back up quarterback throwing haymakers the entire way. Could Sean have done that? I would say absolutely not. No way in hell. Now could Pederson ever win in the ways Sean has? With that incredible consistency? No way. But the lifetime achievement award is not something I get to celebrate.
 

Further and again sort of the heart of the issue,  you see his constant attempts and failures as a sign it will happen soon, I see them as more evidence it won’t. When statistically unlikely things start occurring in football in some instances I expect it will correct, but others I just don’t believe we fully understand why it’s occurring and it just keeps doing so. That is what I believe we have going on. 

I don’t really get paragraph 2…the nfl playoffs is so crazy high variance involving so much dumb luck with needing the right guys staying healthy, questionable calls going your way, OT coin flips being won 😂, etc that the best way to bring one home is to keep getting back there with good seeding imo. 

Playing the chiefs as tough or tougher than any other team in the league in a big sample size feels like evidence it’s gonna happen to me but to each their own. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

But I was responding to @Buffalo716's point which I think is right... if he can get the hardware suddenly the entire resume is incredibly persuasive. 

 

And I agree with this totally. He's a HoF coach if he gets even one Super Bowl win. Without it he goes down as the coach that held back Allen from putting the exclamation point on his career. Marty Schottenheimer 2.0, remembered more as a running joke than for what he accomplished. Allen's legacy also rides on that Super Bowl win. He's either an all time football legend or just a great QB. So McDermott's and Allen's legacies are inextricably tied together as far as how history will remember them. What has frustrated me is that it feels like Allen has far and away held up his end of that relationship, and McDermott has not. And so eventually if McDermott isn't going to help Allen cement his legacy, I would like to give someone else a shot. For me Allen's 30th birthday is the breaking point which I think is more than fair. That will come in the 2026 offseason.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

And I agree with this totally. He's a HoF coach if he gets even one Super Bowl win. Without it he goes down as the coach that held back Allen from putting the exclamation point on his career. Marty Schottenheimer 2.0, remembered more as a running joke than for what he accomplished. Allen's legacy also rides on that Super Bowl win. He's either an all time football legend or just a great QB. So McDermott's and Allen's legacies are inextricably tied together as far as how history will remember them. What has frustrated me is that it feels like Allen has far and away held up his end of that relationship, and McDermott has not. And so eventually if McDermott isn't going to help Allen cement his legacy, I would like to give someone else a shot. For me Allen's 30th birthday is the breaking point which I think is more than fair. That will come in the 2026 offseason.

 

I don't think Marty was a running joke. And I don't think McDermott is either.

 

I also think it is harsh to say that McDermott hasn't held up his end of the relationship. I see how you get there if you are looking only through the prism of the defensive performance in playoff losses to KC. But bigger picture McDermott has been a good Head Coach for Allen in terms of the environment he has put around him. 

[Einstein]

4 hours ago, PRBills said:

I have supported McDermott 100% and feel like we should give him the opportunity to see this through. Since Marv, what have we actually had and yall want to move on??? GTFO. Let’s look forward every Sunday to Gailey, Malarkey, Marrone, etc….good times good times 😂

 

Jauron was the absolute worst. There was simply no hope. Just grey skies - all the time.

[JGMcD2]

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

 

The only coaches in the Super Bowl era who are .600 or better and have not won a conference championship game are McD, Lafluer, and Marty. We can talk about injuries, and KC, and how reaching the playoffs every year will really help, but he's in historically rare company for regular season success vs post season ineptitude. That will have to change. Plenty of evidence to suggest it won't and plenty to suggest it should. Plenty of threads covering those topics as well. I wasn't wanting this to become one where it gets debated again. We know what it is. People seem to be ready to crown the man after this year and rightfully so if you can glean something from regular season success. I was curious if many still held the opinion that it's playoff success or bust and it seems to still be the case with a decent amount. In fact it really doesn't seem to have changed it all.    

He's in historically rare company, let's not act like coaches in the Super Bowl era who are .600 or better are just floating around. It's 22 coaches stretching across 60 seasons.  

 

John Madden (1 Conference Championship, 1 Super Bowl)

Vince Lombardi (2 Conference Championships, 2 Super Bowls) 

George Allen (1 Conference Championship, 0 Super Bowls)

Matt LaFleur (0 Conference Championship, 0 Super Bowls)

Don Shula (6 Conference Championship, 2 Super Bowls)

Tony Dungy (1 Conference Championship, 1 Super Bowl)

Sean McDermott (0 Conference Championship, 0 Super Bowl)

Andy Reid (5 Conference Championship, 3 Super Bowl)

George Seifert (2 Conference Championship, 2 Super Bowl)

Bill Belichick (9 Conference Championship, 6 Super Bowl)

Mike Tomlin (2 Conference Championship, 1 Super Bowl)

Bruce Arians (1 Conference Championship, 1 Super Bowl)

Mike Martz (1 Conference Championship, 1 Super Bowl)

Bill Cowher (2 Conference Championship, 1 Super Bowl)

Bud Grant (5 Conference Championship, 0 Super Bowl)

Joe Gibbs (4 Conference Championship, 3 Super Bowl)

Sean Payton (1 Conference Championship, 1 Super Bowl)

John Harbaugh (1 Conference Championship, 1 Super Bowl)

Marty Schottenheimer (0 Conference Championship, 0 Super Bowl)

Mike McCarthy (1 Conference Championship, 1 Super Bowl)

Bill Walsh (3 Conference Championship, 3 Super Bowl)

Tom Landry (5 Conference Championship, 2 Super Bowl)

 

What's the median on that group? 1 Conference Championship and 1 Super Bowl? You're making the argument that we have a coach who is 1 of 22 coaches in the 60-year era of the Super Bowl with a .600 or better record, and you think it is worth moving on from that guy because, at the moment, in a given season he is 1-2 wins off of his peers?

 

I'm not saying that McDermott doesn't have to stiffen up and win the big one, but all you're showing me here is he's way closer to being one of THE GREATEST EVER than he is to being let go. You realize that right? That when McDermott wins a Super Bowl, he's going to be on pace to be one of the greatest coaches in the history of the National Football League.  @GunnerBill has said it upthread, McDermott would get scooped up as fast as Andy Reid did and instantly make his new team a contender.

 

You're continuing to help illustrate why the mindset of "Championship or Bust" is silly. These kinds of coaches don't grow on trees - you're pointing to Marty Schottenheimer like he's the rule, when in reality he's the exception. 

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think Marty was a running joke. And I don't think McDermott is either.

 

I also think it is harsh to say that McDermott hasn't held up his end of the relationship. I see how you get there if you are looking only through the prism of the defensive performance in playoff losses to KC. But bigger picture McDermott has been a good Head Coach for Allen in terms of the environment he has put around him. 

You cannot do this with every player but considering how raw and unpredictable the outcomes for Josh Allen were as a draft prospect, it is an absolute fact that you do not have the Josh Allen that you have today without Sean McDermott. It's indisputable. 

Edited 19 hours ago by JGMcD2

[freddyjj]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

Further and again sort of the heart of the issue,  you see his constant attempts and failures as a sign it will happen soon, I see them as more evidence it won’t. When statistically unlikely things start occurring in football in some instances I expect it will correct, but others I just don’t believe we fully understand why it’s occurring and it just keeps doing so. That is what I believe we have going on

Nice word salad.  Confusing for sure.  Yet you end with a declarative statement.  

[Mikie2times]

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think Marty was a running joke. And I don't think McDermott is either.

 

I also think it is harsh to say that McDermott hasn't held up his end of the relationship. I see how you get there if you are looking only through the prism of the defensive performance in playoff losses to KC. But bigger picture McDermott has been a good Head Coach for Allen in terms of the environment he has put around him. 

Colts had the 3rd best offensive game all season in EPA vs us in the playoffs in 2020. Chiefs had the best game all season. 
 

Chiefs had the 3rd best game in EPA all season the following year vs us in 2021.

 

Bengals had the 3rd best game in EPA all season the following year vs us in 2022.

 

Chiefs had the 6th best game in EPA last year vs us.

 

I know people want to put his in a nice little package with the KC dynasty and injuries but it doesn’t fit. This was top 5 DVOA defense all these years and they got completely gutted by three separate teams in three separate years nearly as bad a those teams gutted anybody the entire season.
 

These performances are coming along side season leading rushing outputs by those offenses and you expect that will change? That is playoff football. Running the ball. And what can’t we do effectively when we can’t front run a team?  Play run defense. That is why this team can’t win in the playoffs.
 

The system works when you’re playing with a lead. It doesn’t when it’s a neutral script or worse when it’s neutral against power. 
 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Mikie2times

[Dr.Sack]

He’s better now than he was 7 years ago. The platitudes and cliches aside that guy really has me believing in those simple philosophies. He’s getting the most out of his talent because of his preparation and connection with his players. I think the decision to entrust the D to Babich and decision to move on from Dorsey were absolutely critical in elevating the team. 8 years in and still finding ways to help his team answer the challenge week after week.

Edited 19 hours ago by Dr.Sack
Spell check

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Colts had the 3rd best offensive game all season in EPA vs us in the playoffs in 2020. Chiefs had the best game all season. 
 

Chiefs had the 3rd best game in EPA all season the following year vs us in 2021.

 

Bengals had the 3rd best game in EPA all season the following year vs us in 2022.

 

Chiefs had the 6th best game in EPA last year vs us.

 

I know people want to put his in a nice little package with the KC dynasty and injuries but it doesn’t fit. This was top 5 DVOA defense all these years and they got completely gutted by three separate teams in three separate years nearly as bad a those teams gutted anybody the entire season.
 

These performances are coming along side season leading rushing outputs by those offenses and you expect that will change? That is playoff football. Running the ball. And what can’t we do effectively when we can’t front run a team?  Play run defense. That is why this team can’t win in the playoffs.
 

The system works when you’re playing with a lead. It doesn’t when it’s a neutral script or worse when it’s neutral against power. 
 

 

 

Which of those games did we lose because we couldn't stop the run?

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Which of those games did we lose because we couldn't stop the run?

They don’t tell you what the final score is based on rushing yards but we are 7-13 the last 3 years when we allow 140 or more yards rushing and 100% of our playoff losses are in that sample.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

They don’t tell you what the final score is based on rushing yards but we are 7-13 the last 3 years when we allow 140 or more yards rushing and 100% of our playoff losses are in that sample.

 

Not true. We didn't allow that in the AFCCG. 

 

You are trying to find narratives to suit an already decided conclusion. It is classic confirmation bias.

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not true. We didn't allow that in the AFCCG. 

 

You are trying to find narratives to suit an already decided conclusion. It is classic confirmation bias.

182 yards to the Chiefs in 2021

 

172 yards to the Bengals in 2022

 

146 to the Chiefs in 2023

 

I didn’t include 2020 in that statement on our losses, but why not go for the gusto….

 

2020

Colts 163

Ravens 150

Chiefs yes, my confirmation my bias 😂 113. 
 

So the run game isn’t an issue you say? You think this is all about KC? And your takeaway is to call out the 113 yards from 2020 and not acknowledge nearly every team we have faced in the postseason who has beat us has done so on a literal top 3 offense dive performance on the entire year! You really can’t make this stuff up. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Mikie2times said:

182 yards to the Chiefs in 2021

 

172 yards to the Bengals in 2022

 

146 to the Chiefs in 2023

 

I didn’t include 2020 in that statement on our losses, but why not go for the gusto….

 

2020

Colts 163

Ravens 150

Chiefs yes, my confirmation my bias 😂 113. 
 

So the run game isn’t an issue you say? You think this is all about KC? And your takeaway is to call out the 113 yards from 2020 and not acknowledge nearly every team we have faced in the postseason who has beat us has done so on a literal top 3 offense dive performance on the entire year! You really can’t make this stuff up. 

 

No I call out you saying things that are not true.