McD: Has your view changed?

[GunnerBill]

I wasn't in any of those categories. I was in darn fine football coach who hasn't got us over the hump in the playoffs mainly because he hasn't beaten Mahomes and Reid. And he is far from the only one. 

 

13 seconds is a legit stick to beat him with and that is just what it is. But I have never been a "he needs to change to get it done" or "he can't get it done in the playoffs" or any of those things. 

 

I'd go as far as saying he is criminally underrated by most Bills fans. 

 

44 minutes ago, Dr. K said:

I suspect this is a thread mostly useful to those in group 4 who can vent and tell us they have not changed their opinion. 

 

It is totally that.

 

EDIT: I have also set out the two scenarios in which my mind would be changed to "we need to move on" and they are:

 

1. We lose playoff games to clearly less talented teams. Losing to the Chiefs and a really good Bengals team doesn't qualify. If we start getting upset in the wildcard or even this year if we were beaten in the playoffs by a Houston for example I'd think that falls more to coaching.

 

2. We miss the playoffs in a season where Josh Allen is healthy. One game knockout football is way more susceptible to luck than most admit. Especially between similarly talented teams. But over 17 games with an elite Quarterback it takes more than bad luck to miss the post season. Getting into the tournament is the absolute minimum expectation.

Edited 21 hours ago by GunnerBill

[Since1981]

He has proven by facts/wins/AFCE to be top 12. Which I will take with the flaw that he is NOT a top 4 (AFCC). With maturity and experience his QB/OC can get them to SB. 

[billsfan89]

I was camp 3, now I'm leaning towards camp 2. I think McD has managed this team close to perfect year in and year out in the regular season and now he just has to have that signature playoff run. 

[Mikie2times]

Just now, JGMcD2 said:

Sean Payton had 1 instance in 16 seasons in New Orleans with a future HOF QB where he won more than 1 playoff game in a given season. 
 

Matt LaFleur had a future HOF QB in GB and hasn’t won more than 1 playoff game in a given season. 
 

Kevin O’Connell lost to Daniel Jones in the Wild Card round and has never won a playoff game. 
 

Nick Sirianni has lost in the Wild Card round twice in 3 playoff appearances. 
 

Mike Vrabel who was fired by Tennessee. 

 

Jim Harbaugh… he’s not going to last. He doesn’t like the pressure and health won’t hold up. 

Ryans probably shouldn’t even be in that category - he has plenty to prove. 
 

So yeah, they guys with less obvious warts are…

 

Kyle Shanahan who has never beat Andy Reid and the Chiefs, but has made it work with limited QBs. I’d take him. 
 

Sean McVay who has had a ton of success, after he upgraded from Goff to a future HOF QB. Otherwise, it’s been a pretty mixed bag. 

 

Dan Campbell who I love and would probably be the other guy I’d take over McDermott on that list. 

Thanks for making me narrow down the group and help further my point.
 

3/55 hires so about 6% of the hires I’d take over McDermott and about 2% of the candidate pool over the past 7 seasons. 
 

I should I also probably point out that only 1 of those non-McDermott coaches (Vrabel) was in the AFC competing with Belichick and Reid. Payton and Harbaugh are there now, so we’ll see what happens in the AFC West moving forward.

 

Our ceiling is plenty high, arguably higher than any non Reid/Mahomes combo in the league, but that is the point fans get wrong. It’s about the floor in any given year - you need to get to the dance. Once you’re there it’s somewhat unpredictable.
 

Has nobody paid attention to what the Chiefs have done/been doing the past 3 seasons? 

 

The only coaches in the Super Bowl era who are .600 or better and have not won a conference championship game are McD, Lafluer, and Marty. We can talk about injuries, and KC, and how reaching the playoffs every year will really help, but he's in historically rare company for regular season success vs post season ineptitude. That will have to change. Plenty of evidence to suggest it won't and plenty to suggest it should. Plenty of threads covering those topics as well. I wasn't wanting this to become one where it gets debated again. We know what it is. People seem to be ready to crown the man after this year and rightfully so if you can glean something from regular season success. I was curious if many still held the opinion that it's playoff success or bust and it seems to still be the case with a decent amount. In fact it really doesn't seem to have changed it all.    

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

 

The only coaches in the Super Bowl era who are .600 or better and have not won a conference championship game are McD, Lafluer, and Marty. We can talk about injuries, and KC, and how reaching the playoffs every year will really help, but he's in historically rare company for regular season success vs post season ineptitude. That will have to change. Plenty of evidence to suggest it won't and plenty to suggest it should. Plenty of threads covering those topics as well. I wasn't wanting this to become one where it gets debated again. We know what it is. People seem to be ready to crown the man after this year and rightfully so if you can glean something from regular season success. I was curious if many still held the opinion that it's playoff success or bust and it seems to still be the case with a decent amount. In fact it really doesn't seem to have changed it all.    

 

He could win a Superbowl at this point and there are Bills fans who would shrug and say "oh well he was just along for the ride." 

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

I feel like prior to the season starting the general vibe around here could fit into four categories 

 

1. Some posters discussed the risk of changing a HC

2. Some felt he would ultimately figure out his postseason issues

3. Some felt his regular season success was enough so far and if nothing else that should buy him more time 

4. Some felt he never would figure it out in the postseason and it was a lost cause

 

I was a #4 (go figure) and still remain in the last group. While thrilled at what we have done this year as I have hope I didn't expect to arrive at this season, nothing we did in the regular season would be able to change where I land in that grouping. We have just been too good in the regular season and that isn't where my concern is.  With all that said, I get a sense that I'm a minority at this point. That based on this years performance McD has largely quieted group #4 and most posters have now shifted into 1, 2, or 3 or at least a combination of them.

 

So I guess it's a two part question here...

 

1. Has the season so far resulted in you shifting from one of the groupings to another?

2. If we lose in the divisional round or earlier will that dramatically impact your perception of Sean and how this season has gone?

 

 

 

 

My mind changed in the Houston game where I for the first time wanted him fired after that last drive.  However, my mind changed back when I watched the film and realized it was Allens fault, not McD's and McD was even visibly pissed at the choices Allen made on that drive.  

 

Twice before I felt he was the COY and got robbed.  If the vote was today, I would say he should be the COY without a doubt even though he probably still won't win it.  But he IMHO has the best case for it in the NFL if the vote was today.  

 

None of this matters though...we need to see what this team does in the postseason.  

[Chicken Boo]

4 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

This is a serious post, can someone who advocates for the Bills to move on from McDermott please walk me through step-by-step how they’d go about replacing him and who they’d replace him with? 

 

Well first you fire him, then you bring in Ben Johnson.  

[Mikie2times]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

He could win a Superbowl at this point and there are Bills fans who would shrug and say "oh well he was just along for the ride." 

 

 

Perhaps, but most of them would be pretty damn quiet for a long time (at least the next season). As somebody that defends this position a decent amount I wouldn't have much to stand on if he had a Super Bowl. Nor would I care to do so. I would be too damn happy at that point. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Mikie2times said:

Perhaps, but most of them would be pretty damn quiet for a long time (at least the next season). As somebody that defends this position a decent amount I wouldn't have much to stand on if he had a Super Bowl. Nor would I care to do so. I would be too damn happy at that point. 

 

The next time we lost back to back games you'd be back to "he is holding us back, the only thing preventing a Bills dynasty is Sean McDermott". When people convince themselves they've found a bogey man they rarely come off it. 

[Buffalo716]

McDermott is the guy I want

 

This team and culture is not what it is without McDermott... Besides the super bowls.. so far.. he's done a Hall of Fame job 

 

 

[US Egg]

9 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

Well first you fire him, then you bring in Ben Johnson.  

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The next time we lost back to back games you'd be back to "he is holding us back, the only thing preventing a Bills dynasty is Sean McDermott". When people convince themselves they've found a bogey man they rarely come off it. 

That's really not true as it relates to me. But people generalize. It's the internet. 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

McDermott is the guy I want

 

This team and culture is not what it is without McDermott... Besides the super bowls.. so far.. he's done a Hall of Fame job 

 

 

What are the criteria for being a great coach in the NFL:

 

1. Can you build a programme? Check

2. Can you develop players? Check

3. Can you win football games at a high rate? Check

4. Can you show consistent excellence on "your side of the ball"? Check

5. Can you lead through adversity and roster turnover? Check

6. Can you win Championships?  [no check]

 

 

That is literally the one thing McDermott is missing. And I understand and appreciate why to some people they say "and that is all that matters". I get it. But it is the only area where he comes up short. 

 

If it gets to the point where the Bills have to move on he'd be hired by someone else within days. I don't think any fired coach since Reid in Philly would be re-hired so quickly.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What are the criteria for being a great coach in the NFL:

 

1. Can you build a programme? Check

2. Can you develop players? Check

3. Can you win football games at a high rate? Check

4. Can you show consistent excellence on "your side of the ball"? Check

5. Can you lead through adversity and roster turnover? Check

6. Can you win Championships?  [no check]

 

 

That is literally the one thing McDermott is missing. And I understand and appreciate why to some people they say "and that is all that matters". I get it. But it is the only area where he comes up short. 

 

If it gets to the point where the Bills have to move on he'd be hired by someone else within days. I don't think any fired coach since Reid in Philly would be re-hired so quickly.

He has it all except the hardware 

 

But he is definitely fit for Buffalo and western New York 

 

He has a good demeanor on the sideline and he is tough 

 

And that will come through to your players.. calmness and toughness

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What are the criteria for being a great coach in the NFL:

 

1. Can you build a programme? Check

2. Can you develop players? Check

3. Can you win football games at a high rate? Check

4. Can you show consistent excellence on "your side of the ball"? Check

5. Can you lead through adversity and roster turnover? Check

6. Can you win Championships?  [no check]

 

 

That is literally the one thing McDermott is missing. And I understand and appreciate why to some people they say "and that is all that matters". I get it. But it is the only area where he comes up short. 

 

If it gets to the point where the Bills have to move on he'd be hired by someone else within days. I don't think any fired coach since Reid in Philly would be re-hired so quickly.

It's kind of a big one lol

 

There are lots of guys who can and have accomplished your first few much less important categories

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What are the criteria for being a great coach in the NFL:

 

1. Can you build a programme? Check

2. Can you develop players? Check

3. Can you win football games at a high rate? Check

4. Can you show consistent excellence on "your side of the ball"? Check

5. Can you lead through adversity and roster turnover? Check

6. Can you win Championships?  [no check]

 

 

That is literally the one thing McDermott is missing. And I understand and appreciate why to some people they say "and that is all that matters". I get it. But it is the only area where he comes up short. 

 

If it gets to the point where the Bills have to move on he'd be hired by someone else within days. I don't think any fired coach since Reid in Philly would be re-hired so quickly.

I mean, the history of our game surrounds checking that Box. Bud Grant was a hell of a coach. But Christ, 50 years later people barely even remember Minnesota went to 4 Super Bowls in that era. You think anybody is going to remember this run unless that box is checked?

[GunnerBill]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

It's kind of a big one lol

 

There are lots of guys who can and have accomplished your first few much less important categories

 

It is a big one. 

 

I disagree on the second point though. I think there are multiple Superbowl winners who haven't done those and are less good coaches. But as they say once you've won it they can't take it from you.

[GoBills808]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

It is a big one. 

 

I disagree on the second point though. I think there are multiple Superbowl winners who haven't done those and are less good coaches. But as they say once you've won it they can't take it from you.

No sorry I don't buy that. I don't think it's reasonable to say a HC who hasn't won a SB is better than one who has.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

I mean, the history of our game surrounds checking that Box. Bud Grant was a hell of a coach. But Christ, 50 years later people barely even remember Minnesota went to 4 Super Bowls in that era. You think anybody is going to remember this run unless that box is checked?

 

No, I don't. Although Bud Grant was, unquestionably, a hell of a coach. 

 

Being good and being remembered are not always the same. McDermott will have to win a Superbowl to be remembered. There is no question of that. But I was responding to @Buffalo716's point which I think is right... if he can get the hardware suddenly the entire resume is incredibly persuasive. 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

No sorry I don't buy that. I don't think it's reasonable to say a HC who hasn't won a SB is better than one who has.

McDermott is absolutely better than Pederson

 

A blind squirrel can find a nut 

 

Striking iron while it's hot 

 

Right place right time 

 

I could use a thousand analogies but Sean McDermott is a team builder and a winner and a  tactician