McD: Has your view changed?

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think there is a difference between McDermott wanting Daboll to run it more and what I am talking about which is asking the Quarterback to be responsible for reading the field and run a proper offense. They didn't hide him with a ton of half field reads and gimmicks. It's fair that not putting him in a heavy run scheme was part of that too... but I don't think McDermott was ever advocating for a heavy run scheme. The Bills are still one of the top neutral situation passing teams by the numbers. He just wanted Dabes to run it more than when he'd go like 12 passes in a row etc (and to be clear I had no issue with Dabes doing that).

Meh.

 

I have a hard time believing it was "we are aligned on everything except how often we give our running back the ball" causing their level of strife.

 

Like I said, we all agree that Daboll had fundamental disagreements with McD about the offense. Where that starts and stops will probably be unknown.

 

I find it difficult to believe that the OC that he was basically not on speaking terms with towards the end of his tenure was aligned with the HC's philosophy. I don't know how much McD agreed or disagreed with Daboll's offensive design.

 

Would it surprise me if McD pushed for simpler reads for Josh and Daboll said no? It would not.

 

Would it surprise me if McD has wanted to play ball-control with Josh as his QB for his entire tenure here?  It would not.

 

Things that we know:

 

Daboll's pass heavy, don't take the ball out of Josh's hands offense was not McD's favorite strategy and is likely the biggest reason they have a frosty relationship.

 

Dorsey's high to low, high variance offense got him fired.

 

Brady's ball control, feed the running back offense for the last 10 games of the year in 2023 secured him the OC job with virtually zero competition.

 

So yeah, respect the opinion that McD was very nurturing about Josh going out there and slinging it when Josh was developing. Not sure I agree, because of basically every other aspect about McD's influence on the offense that is proven to be the complete opposite of that. That would basically be a complete regression of offensive philosophy and honestly a black mark on McD that he has gotten tighter and more conservative and less understanding of the Lambo in his garage.

 

If you think McD was all aboard the Daboll offense and has now gone the opposite way, he probably should go lol.

[amprov56]

18 hours ago, FireChans said:

Okay. 
 

Just go on record. Do you think Shanahan and Josh from 2020-2024 would’ve had more success than McD and Josh from 2020-2024? 

 

Sure, no one can prove it. does that mean we can’t discuss it? lol. Very odd take.

 

My suspicion is that you kind of agree, but you’re afraid to admit it. It’s okay bro. It won’t make you a bad Bills fan to think someone could have POSSIBLY done a better job than McDermott.

Its also okay not to buy into the negative narrative constantly pushed by some, does not you a "homer."

[Buffalo03]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

So you're trying to say the contract and dead hit with Diggs was unavoidable?  That's a stretch. 

 

You do understand that Beane is responsible for the contracts, right?    When a big mistake is made, such that it impacts the talent level of the team, Beane should be held accountable.  The whole discussion of whether this year was a "retool" or "rebuild" were because of choices Beane was making for cap compliance- which again is under the direction of Beane.

If you don't understand why he made that deal. There is no help for you

[FireChans]

Just now, amprov56 said:

Its also okay not to buy into the negative narrative constantly pushed by some, does not you a "homer."

I have no problem if you disagree. Don't think that makes you a "homer."

 

Being afraid to have a take is what I take issue with lol.  Calling a hypothetical situation "pretend kid stuff," after engaging in it for 2 pages because he's afraid to go on record is a coward move.

 

Here's all the "pretend kid stuff" that @NewEra was just so above engaging in. Waste of time to even talk about. So childish. Lol.

 

I guess a hypothetical of "if the Niners played in the AFC" isn't playing pretend in the sand, but "how would the Bills do if Shanny was the coach" is basically having an imaginary friend.

 

On 12/6/2024 at 10:58 AM, NewEra said:

lol-  is that what you think I said?  
 

do you think that Shanahan would’ve gone to 3 AFCCGs and a SB in 4 seasons if he had to play the chiefs in 2 divisional rounds and 1 AFFCG?  

On 12/6/2024 at 3:42 AM, NewEra said:

SF was a SB team because he hasn’t been in Mahomes’ conference.  Flip the Bills into the NFC and Allen and Mahomes would’ve had at least a couple SB matchups.  Put Shanny in the AFC and he has zero appearances.

[Buffalo03]

31 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I’m not saying I don’t understand why he gave him the extension. I know exactly why he did. 
 

He wanted to reward a guy with a reputation of being volatile so he didn’t become disgruntled. And he went against the philosophy that every single player outside of Josh Allen was treated with, “no extensions with more than 1 year left on your current deal.”
 

He was wrong. He misplayed it and Diggs became disgruntled anyway.

You are trying to say because he had his reasons, he is blameless. He is not. No GM in the NFL who gives a gigantic extension and then trades that player, accumulating the highest non-QB dead hit is blameless. 

If the Cardinals gave some random dude $70M in guaranteed and cut him before he played a snap, their GM would get killed. Rightfully so. Their job is to be right. 

Yes, he gave Diggs the deal. If he had known Diggs would become a baby with an attitude after the 2nd year of that new deal, I highly doubt he would have done it. I don't understand how you can blame Beane even now for doing it at the time. Again, if he signed Allen to a massive 5 year extension after this season and then Allen all of a sudden started playing like Zach Wilson for the next 3 years and then we trade him, is Beane to blame for that based on Allen's current career production? No. Nor should he really be blamed that bad for what happened to Diggs 

Edited December 7 by Buffalo03

[jimmy10]

My opinion of him hasn’t really changed, I’m just glad he had enough success early on to buy himself time to get into a good groove. I’ve always looked at the Steelers as the model of consistent success. Stable ownership and only four head coaches in like 60 years, and Tomlin’s never had a losing season. 
 

When we hired him, I didn’t know if he’d be the next Mike Tomlin (W&M teammates aside), but I knew that the next Mike Tomlin wouldn’t be a splashy name, rather a smart young guy who has earned and is getting his first HC gig. And if you hit it right (along with QBs) your coaching staff and thus entire franchise can be a stable, consistent, winning unit for 20+ years.
 

So far so good. An AFC title and a Lombardi are the only things left that would really cement it. 

Edited December 7 by jimmy10

[Buffalo03]

50 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I’m not saying I don’t understand why he gave him the extension. I know exactly why he did. 
 

He wanted to reward a guy with a reputation of being volatile so he didn’t become disgruntled. And he went against the philosophy that every single player outside of Josh Allen was treated with, “no extensions with more than 1 year left on your current deal.”
 

He was wrong. He misplayed it and Diggs became disgruntled anyway.

You are trying to say because he had his reasons, he is blameless. He is not. No GM in the NFL who gives a gigantic extension and then trades that player, accumulating the highest non-QB dead hit is blameless. 

If the Cardinals gave some random dude $70M in guaranteed and cut him before he played a snap, their GM would get killed. Rightfully so. Their job is to be right. 

You don't blame a GM for extending guys he should. You blame a GM for extending and giving guys money that don't deserve it. That wasn't the case case with Diggs at the time. Now if he extended Gabe Davis and gave him $20-$25 million a season or even signed him to what Jacksonville did, then yes, you blame him. You don't blame a GM for giving well deserved contracts that don't work out mid way through 

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

Yes, he gave Diggs the deal. If he had known Diggs would become a baby with an attitude after the 2nd year of that new deal, I highly doubt he would have done it. I don't understand how you can blame Beane even now for doing it at the time. Again, if he signed Allen to a massive 5 year extension after this season and then Allen all of a sudden started playing like Zach Wilson for the next 3 years and then we trade him, is Beane to blame for that based on Allen's current career production? No. Nor should he really be blamed that bad for what happened to Diggs 

Are we acting like Diggs didn't get a big money extension and demand a trade right after to end up in Buffalo in the first place?

 

You are conflating two very different situations.

 

Giving Diggs an extension was a calculated risk that blew up in Beane's face because he had a known track record of forcing his way out of town even after getting paid.

 

Giving Von a gigantic contract when he was 1000 years old was a calculated risk that blew up in Beane's face because he was a larger injury risk.

 

Giving a player that his earned an extension then that player inexplicably turning into a terrible player is far different.

 

Ultimately, its a results business. You are acting like no one could have seen Von getting hurt or Diggs becoming a cancer (again). You are welcome to read through those threads when those moves were announced. Some loved them and some thought they were mistakes.

 

Beane owns the result. Like every other GM does. Everything he does is his fault, positively or negatively. He doesn't get a pass because he had decent logic behind the idea. Just like no other GM does either. If big splashes are failures, they are failures that he, as the GM, wears.

[Kelly to Allen]

As everyone knows the pegulas had a long meeting with the Rooney's from the Steelers about the bills new coach hire, what kind of philosophy to have as an organization etc 

 

The number one thing the Rooney's said was find a coach who is of high high character and toughness and let him be the coach ( even thru the ups and downs of team development or rebuilding) as long as possible. Like over ten years long.

 

One of the key benefits was obviously the football program being fully established to where players can more easily develop. Ie the Dane Jackson and jamarcus Ingrams of your roster...

 

As I've said before I've fully accepted McDermott as coach and don't want him going anywhere for many many years 

 

 

Edited December 7 by Kelly to Allen

[Buffalo03]

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Are we acting like Diggs didn't get a big money extension and demand a trade right after to end up in Buffalo in the first place?

 

You are conflating two very different situations.

 

Giving Diggs an extension was a calculated risk that blew up in Beane's face because he had a known track record of forcing his way out of town even after getting paid.

 

Giving Von a gigantic contract when he was 1000 years old was a calculated risk that blew up in Beane's face because he was a larger injury risk.

 

Giving a player that his earned an extension then that player inexplicably turning into a terrible player is far different.

 

Ultimately, its a results business. You are acting like no one could have seen Von getting hurt or Diggs becoming a cancer (again). You are welcome to read through those threads when those moves were announced. Some loved them and some thought they were mistakes.

 

Beane owns the result. Like every other GM does. Everything he does is his fault, positively or negatively. He doesn't get a pass because he had decent logic behind the idea. Just like no other GM does either. If big splashes are failures, they are failures that he, as the GM, wears.

Dude, you resign good players. Diggs was someone we needed at the time and may have held out if not for an explosion in market rate at the time. At that point, I didn't care about what happened in Minnesota or what exactly from all that was true. He gave a productive WR an extension that didn't work out. My Allen example is still an example of how people will blame Beane for pretty much any extension he makes even if it is warranted and doesn't work out. It happens from time to time. I don't want him extending average players for instance, I think Dawson Knox's deal was a terrible deal and I blame Beane for that. I do not blame him for the Diggs deal

Edited December 7 by Buffalo03

[FireChans]

Just now, Buffalo03 said:

Dude, you resign good players. Diggs was someone we needed at the time and may have held out if not for an explosion in market rate at the time. At that point, I didn't care about in Minnesota or what exactly from all that was true. He gave a productive an extension that didn't work out. My Allen example is still an example of how people will blame Beane for pretty much any extension he makes even if it is warranted and doesn't work out. It happens from time to time. I don't want him extending average players for instance. I think Dawson Knox's deal was a terrible deal and I blame Beane for that. I do no blame him for the Diggs deal

Diggs was under contract for TWO MORE YEARS. He had no leverage. Beane didn't give Josh a massive raise because Tua and Burrow got paid. It was a bad deal on Beane's part.

 

No one could have seen this coming is factually not true.

 

Some people liked the Spencer Brown extension. Some folks hated it. If Spencer Brown plays at a really high level for the next couple years, Beane will get a lot of credit. If he flames out and his chronic back injuries resurface, Beane will get a lot of blame.

 

That's the game.

 

On 4/9/2022 at 12:50 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

Literally, you can look at Diggs then existing contract and say there was no need to act..............not  just "technically".

 

You can't keep everyone at their happiest as a GM.........sometimes players are going to want for things.

 

I think Beane did a pretty good job keeping Diggs at bay on an extension for a couple years.........but ultimately the objective should have been to get him to the offseason before his walk year and see where he stood going into his age 30 season.

 

Beane blew all of his gains by having him at 3/4 of the market by re-inking him at the top of the market, IMO.

 

People can disagree but I think this deal ends with 2-3 years left and a lot of dead money.

[Buffalo03]

29 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Diggs was under contract for TWO MORE YEARS. He had no leverage. Beane didn't give Josh a massive raise because Tua and Burrow got paid. It was a bad deal on Beane's part.

 

No one could have seen this coming is factually not true.

 

Some people liked the Spencer Brown extension. Some folks hated it. If Spencer Brown plays at a really high level for the next couple years, Beane will get a lot of credit. If he flames out and his chronic back injuries resurface, Beane will get a lot of blame.

 

That's the game.

 

I KNOW HE WAS UNDER CONTRACT FOR 2 MORE YEARS. I DO NOT CARE. he OUTPLAYED that deal. Do you know what outplayed means? He deserved to be paid among the best in the league which he was not paid at compared to the other guys at the time. WRs he was on par with were making $8 or 9$ million more a season than he was. He paid a productive WR what was rightfully deserved at the time. Yeah, you don't resign a player with chronic injury problems. So, Spencer Brown I would agree with if it didn't work out. But this blame he his he is taking for Diggs is ridiculous. And why are we even talking about it? The assumption that the other guy made saying that McDermott has bailed Beane out is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. They have done great things together. Neither is perfect. They have made few mistakes but the good has far outweighed the bad with both. The players Beane has drafted is a big part of our success. He isn't bailed out by McDermott, that's just complete nonsense. 

Edited December 7 by Buffalo03

[DrMaxPower]

4 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Lafleur is the OC and an offensive head coach. 

 

I think with Joshs development, Daboll gets a lot of the credit since he was the OC. (Giants saw it that way as well and hired Dabs to try to develop DJ)

And how did that work out, without the steady hand of McD? Not well.

[FireChans]

26 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

I KNOW HE WAS UNDER CONTRACT FOR 2 MORE YEARS. I DO NOT CARE. he OUTPLAYED that deal. Do you know what outplayed means? He deserved to be paid among the best in the league which he was not paid at compared to the other guys at the time. WRs he was on par with were making $8 or 9$ million more a season than he was. He paid a productive WR what was rightfully deserved at the time. Yeah, you don't resign a player with chronic injury problems. So, Spencer Brown I would agree with if it didn't work out. But this blame he his he is taking for Diggs is ridiculous. And why are we even talking about it? The assumption that the other guy made saying that McDermott has bailed Beane out is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. They have done great things together. Neither is perfect. They have made few mistakes but the good has far outweighed the bad with both. The players Beane has drafted is a big part of our success. He isn't bailed out by McDermott, that's just complete nonsense. 

Oh goodness gracious.

 

Josh is the 14th highest paid QB in the NFL right now.  Has he outplayed that deal?  Does he deserve to be paid among the best in the league which he is not paid at compared to the other guys at the time? There are other QB's making $17M more than he is per season right now.

 

Do you know why Beane hasn't given him a massive raise?

 

Because he doesn't have to.

 

It was the same with Diggs. Feel free to live in a world where its not an NFL GM's fault for eating a gigantic cap hit of dead money of a contract extension he didn't have to do in which the player didn't play a single snap lol.

Edited December 7 by FireChans

[JGMcD2]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

What do you specifically think McDermott did to develop Josh? Do you think he broke down his mechanics and helped clean up his footwork?

 

I think McD hired the guys who did that. And kudos to him for doing so. But there’s a difference when you are the guy who DOES that or the guy who hires the right guys to do that. 

@GunnerBill already answered this nicely below, the biggest piece is providing the correct environment for the player to develop. 

 

I am going to speak from personal experience here, different sport, but at the highest level:

1. The key stakeholders (GM, Head Coach, AGM, etc.) are all VERY aware of what is happening with their priority players
2. Not only are they very aware, but they're HEAVILY involved with designing and monitoring the development plan for each player
3. More often than not, they delegate those responsibilities to other coaches and staff members, because it would be unrealistic to expect the key stakeholders to be hands on daily with every priority player, even if it's the most important player
   1. Truthfully, players tend to grow quite tired of being monitored by the "key stakeholders" and prefer to have a relationship with their position coach, who is then directly responsible for communicating every detail back up the chain. 

My longwinded point being, Matt LaFleur was undoubtedly handling the development of Jordan Love the same way McDermott did. I actually have proof that LaFleur was handling Jordan Love's development the exact same way. They specifically brought back Tom Clements at the QB coach, who Aaron Rodgers cited a major part of his development, in order to work with Jordan Love. 

 

HC Matt LaFleur says Jordan Love has made ‘huge strides,’ credits Packers QB coach Tom Clements

 

There are still question marks over the young quarterback's ability to fill the shoes of the four-time MVP, but as long as the Packers have quarterbacks coach Tom Clements, head coach Matt LaFleur knows that Love will continue to improve.
 

"Just watching him last year. I think Jordan's made some huge strides," LeFleur told reporters Saturday. "I really do and I think a lot of it is a credit to Tom, and just, he knows how to train these guys. He knows how to drill them and he's very, very consistent. He doesn't sugarcoat anything. He just is matter of fact and I think there's no doubt."

 

So, if you're giving LaFleur credit, McDermott is getting it too. Don't be fooled by their background on one side of the ball or the other. Contrast all of this with Kyle Shanahan who gave up on his hand-selected QB after 4 games because he didn't have the patience to create the correct environment and carry out a plan to develop him. 

 

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He allowed the offensive coordinator to not baby Josh. He let them put a lot on the Quarterback from day one in an effort to speed up the mental development where he had a distance to travel coming from Wyoming to the NFL in terms of defenses faced.

 

He also, contrary to everyone's expectations, did not force Josh to play small ball. You can argue that's happened some in the last 12 months, but 7 years in. Indeed after the Cleveland debacle in 2019 where Josh had got so in his own head about making mistakes he was doing a passable impression of a white Tyrod Taylor out there holding the ball forever it was McDermott who called him in on the Monday and told him to play free and cut loose and they'd live with the consequences. 

 

Was he involved in Josh's technical refinement? No. But he was big in the mental aspect of how they managed Josh those first 2 or 3 years IMO. 

 

I famously did not like the pick. But even as a Josh Allen sceptic my take in the draft process was if you pick him you have to take your lumps with him. Trying to force fit him into a safe offense as a game manager would have been a disaster. And I think there are NFL coaches who would have been guilty of that.

 

Josh Allen's talent and work ethic are the main reasons Josh Allen is great. But the organisation did a good job of identifying and developing him. Even to the framework they put around him from year 2 onwards (the offense Beane built for him as a rookie was by the GM's own admission "awful")

 

[Kelly to Allen]

20 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

I KNOW HE WAS UNDER CONTRACT FOR 2 MORE YEARS. I DO NOT CARE. he OUTPLAYED that deal. Do you know what outplayed means? He deserved to be paid among the best in the league which he was not paid at compared to the other guys at the time. WRs he was on par with were making $8 or 9$ million more a season than he was. He paid a productive WR what was rightfully deserved at the time. Yeah, you don't resign a player with chronic injury problems. So, Spencer Brown I would agree with if it didn't work out. But this blame he his he is taking for Diggs is ridiculous. And why are we even talking about it? The assumption that the other guy made saying that McDermott has bailed Beane out is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. They have done great things together. Neither is perfect. They have made few mistakes but the good has far outweighed the bad with both. The players Beane has drafted is a big part of our success. He isn't bailed out by McDermott, that's just complete nonsense. 

 

 

I don't think Beane is ever going to bring in a player again with locker room issues or however you want to call it. He was obviously toxic and I was happy he was traded and I'm glad he's gone.

 

He didn't respect Beane , McDermott or Allen and that's where it ends.

 

There's a reason the teams body language, success, and camaraderie is at an all time high after this clown 🤡 left along with Allen having his best year.

 

You can believe that is a coincidence or things were probably way worse than we'll ever know.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Buffalo03]

1 minute ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

 

I don't think Beane is ever going to bring in a player again with locker room issues or however you want to call it. He was obviously toxic and I was happy he was traded and I'm glad he's gone.

 

He didn't respect Beane , McDermott or Allen and that's where it ends.

 

There's a reason the teams body language, success, and camaraderie is at an all time high after this clown 🤡 left along with Allen having his best year.

 

You can believe that is a coincidence or things were probably way worse than we'll ever know.

 

Just my 2 cents

I agree. Diggs being gone. Is definitely helpful to this team right now

[amprov56]

1 hour ago, Kelly to Allen said:

As everyone knows the pegulas had a long meeting with the Rooney's from the Steelers about the bills new coach hire, what kind of philosophy to have as an organization etc 

 

The number one thing the Rooney's said was find a coach who is of high high character and toughness and let him be the coach ( even thru the ups and downs of team development or rebuilding) as long as possible. Like over ten years long.

 

One of the key benefits was obviously the football program being fully established to where players can more easily develop. Ie the Dane Jackson and jamarcus Ingrams of your roster...

 

As I've said before I've fully accepted McDermott as coach and don't want him going anywhere for many many years 

 

 

Why do so many resist that!

I can’t believe the emotional attachment still present for Diggs!

[Kelly to Allen]

18 minutes ago, amprov56 said:

Why do so many resist that!

I can’t believe the emotional attachment still present for Diggs!

Because he was pretty awesome in 20-21 and was still really good in 22 and 23. 

 

He was as close to a true number one as you can be. 

 

He was never an Andre Johnson or Eric Moulds level talent tho imo. Those are true archetype one wrs that can do everything diggs did but we're much more physical and could truly torch you deep. 

 

Two players that were complete no shows in the famous 13 seconds game 

 

Edmunds and Diggs.... That means something imo

 

Don't get me started on the Edmunds truthers lol

 

I like cover 1, their content is pretty good but it was really embarrassing with some of their takes on Edmunds. Like cringe levels of cope 😂 

Edited December 7 by Kelly to Allen

[amprov56]

23 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Because he was pretty awesome in 20-21 and was still really good in 22 and 23. 

 

He was as close to a true number one as you can be. 

 

He was never an Andre Johnson or Eric Moulds level talent tho imo. Those are true archetype one wrs that can do everything diggs did but we're much more physical and could truly torch you deep. 

 

Two players that were complete no shows in the famous 13 seconds game 

 

Edmunds and Diggs.... That means something imo

 

Don't get me started on the Edmunds truthers lol

 

I like cover 1, their content is pretty good but it was really embarrassing with some of their takes on Edmunds. Like cringe levels of cope 😂 

He did nothing in 2024 and I believe he is done, he had his moments but I have TBD posters comparing him to Andre Reed