McD: Has your view changed?

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I remember at the time that the rumor was Shanahan wouldn't even interview with Pegula given how unstable this franchise appeared with Doug Whaley running the show.  Maybe I have it backwards.

 

Nah he interviewed. It lasted 20 minutes and there was mutual dislike. In 2017 Pegs vetoed him even being on the interview request list.

Edited December 7 by GunnerBill

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nah he interviewed. It lasted 20 minutes and there was mutual dislike. In 2017 Pegs vetoed him even being on the interview request list.

LOL.  Great judgment their Terry.  He hired Ryan and six failed Sabres head coaches.  I'll give him credit for hiring McDermott and Beane (not sure how much Kim was involved) but that just makes it more likely he'll be extremely hesitant to ever make a change.

[Einstein's Dog]

On 12/5/2024 at 11:27 AM, Gregg said:

 

Both Beane and McDermott have done a great job this year. I thought they would take a step back this year. I thought they might not win the division with what was expected of the Jets and Dolphins. To be 10-2 and have the division clinched on 12/1 was a complete shock to me. 

All but the most diehard anti-McD haters admit that this is a stand out coaching year by McDermott.  The regular season from now to the end is just an exercise in how high of a seed the Bills get.  They have already exceeded expectations of most people.

 

Beane however is a different story.  The preseason expectations were lower than normal because the talent level appeared to dip - that's on Beane.  Yes, the Diggs disaster was a large factor - but Beane's fingerprints are all over that - from the responsibility for the contract, to the ultimate decision to trade Diggs away.  The "retool' was brought about by Beane.  The WR room looked pathetic, the S room looked suspect, and the treatment of the OL was risky, along with a huge change in leadership.

 

McDermott bailed Beane out.  It's no longer a big deal that the Bills played half the season with a bottom 5 WR room.   Just as many people bought into the laughable "everyone eats" nonsense at WR many have been fooled into thinking Hamlin was a legitimate starting S (spoiler alert Hyde wasn't brought in to coach from the PS).

 

While many tie McDermott and Beane together, I would hope Beane is sending McD a really nice XMas gift this year.  Looks like they'll be together for several more years.

[JGMcD2]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't disagree on Shanahan. I diagree on LaFleur because he has had similar moments himself in the playoffs and the Packers struggle beating other legit teams and have for his entire reign. Regular and post. 

 

And Jordan Love is good. I give LaFleur credit for his part in drafting him and being patient with his development but he is very naturally talented. 

They’re giving LaFleur credit for developing Jordan Love, but somehow developing Josh Allen happened independent of Sean McDermott? Make it make sense. 

[BillsFan130]

34 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

They’re giving LaFleur credit for developing Jordan Love, but somehow developing Josh Allen happened independent of Sean McDermott? Make it make sense. 

Lafleur is the OC and an offensive head coach. 

 

I think with Joshs development, Daboll gets a lot of the credit since he was the OC. (Giants saw it that way as well and hired Dabs to try to develop DJ)

[zow2]

Question, in the modern NFL era, which first time head coach held the longest tenure with his team before he went on to win his first Super Bowl?  This is McD’s 8th year. I’m curious what trend we are looking to buck here. 

[Buffalo03]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

All but the most diehard anti-McD haters admit that this is a stand out coaching year by McDermott.  The regular season from now to the end is just an exercise in how high of a seed the Bills get.  They have already exceeded expectations of most people.

 

Beane however is a different story.  The preseason expectations were lower than normal because the talent level appeared to dip - that's on Beane.  Yes, the Diggs disaster was a large factor - but Beane's fingerprints are all over that - from the responsibility for the contract, to the ultimate decision to trade Diggs away.  The "retool' was brought about by Beane.  The WR room looked pathetic, the S room looked suspect, and the treatment of the OL was risky, along with a huge change in leadership.

 

McDermott bailed Beane out.  It's no longer a big deal that the Bills played half the season with a bottom 5 WR room.   Just as many people bought into the laughable "everyone eats" nonsense at WR many have been fooled into thinking Hamlin was a legitimate starting S (spoiler alert Hyde wasn't brought in to coach from the PS).

 

While many tie McDermott and Beane together, I would hope Beane is sending McD a really nice XMas gift this year.  Looks like they'll be together for several more years.

Wtf are you talking about? Beane gave Diggs that contract because in that particular season when it happened, all of a sudden the WR market started to increase unexpectedly. Davante Adams got traded to and paid a crap ton from the Raiders, Tyreek Hill got traded to Miami and signed an insane deal and Beane have Diggs a Market based deal deservingly so at the time. He parted ways with Diggs this year because it was clear to see Diggs wore out his welcome and didn't want to be here anymore. I can guarantee, if Diggs keeps his mouth shut and plays, he is on this team this year. He forced himself out. Beane chose to get rid of the toxicity Diggs brought. How do you not understand this?

 

 

Edited December 7 by Buffalo03

[Saint Doug]

I don’t know why anyone’s view of McD would have changed. No one ever doubted he was a great coach who can win games. It’s what happens in January and February that is the issue. I guess we’ll see. 

[Einstein's Dog]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

Wtf are you talking about? Beane gave Diggs that contract because in that particular season when it happened, all of a sudden the WR wages started to increase unexpectedly. Davante Adams got paid a crap ton from the Raiders, Tyreek Hill got traded to Miami and signed an insane deal and Beane have Diggs a Market based deal deserving so at the time. He partied ways with Diggs because it was clear to see Diggs wore out his welcome and didn't want to be here anymore. I can guarantee, if Diggs keeps his mouth shut and plays, he is on this team this year. He forced himself out. Beane chose to get rid of the toxicity Diggs brought. How do you not understand this?

So you're trying to say the contract and dead hit with Diggs was unavoidable?  That's a stretch. 

 

You do understand that Beane is responsible for the contracts, right?    When a big mistake is made, such that it impacts the talent level of the team, Beane should be held accountable.  The whole discussion of whether this year was a "retool" or "rebuild" were because of choices Beane was making for cap compliance- which again is under the direction of Beane.

[MDH]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

All but the most diehard anti-McD haters admit that this is a stand out coaching year by McDermott.  The regular season from now to the end is just an exercise in how high of a seed the Bills get.  They have already exceeded expectations of most people.

 

Beane however is a different story.  The preseason expectations were lower than normal because the talent level appeared to dip - that's on Beane.  Yes, the Diggs disaster was a large factor - but Beane's fingerprints are all over that - from the responsibility for the contract, to the ultimate decision to trade Diggs away.  The "retool' was brought about by Beane.  The WR room looked pathetic, the S room looked suspect, and the treatment of the OL was risky, along with a huge change in leadership.

 

McDermott bailed Beane out.  It's no longer a big deal that the Bills played half the season with a bottom 5 WR room.   Just as many people bought into the laughable "everyone eats" nonsense at WR many have been fooled into thinking Hamlin was a legitimate starting S (spoiler alert Hyde wasn't brought in to coach from the PS).

 

While many tie McDermott and Beane together, I would hope Beane is sending McD a really nice XMas gift this year.  Looks like they'll be together for several more years.

 

Wait, so "pre-season expectations" equates to Beane not doing a good job? That's one way of looking at it. The fact that this offseason the Bills are going to have to find a way of re-signing a bunch of their good, young, drafted, players tells a different story. Groot, Benford, Benard, Shakir, and Cook are all extension eligible and not all of them are going to be able to be paid - which is a good problem to have. That's a GM restocking the shelves and knowing when to move on from an aging roster because you realize that you have up and coming talent to fill the void. There was talent there, it's just that many people didn't realize it. I'll agree that his FA signings haven't been great, so that's on him, though Rapp and Hollins have been good additions to the roster - and that Rapp contract looks better by the week.

 

It's interesting to me that you're going back to the offseason talking points to talk about team building issues, and not the ACTUAL issue with the team - the DL.  They have one stand out player there - Rousseau (who, btw, is WAY better than most give him credit for, he's a difference maker.) Unfortunately, everyone else is a JAG or a good player that just isn't having a good year - Oliver. My only hope here is that Miller finds the fountain of youth for a 3-4 game playoff run. I'll put the DL weakness directly on Beane. It's been an issue for years despite resources being piled into it. I'd love to see McD "cover up for Beane" there, but unfortunately it's the weakness that gets us bounced in the playoffs pretty much every year.

 

That said, overall Beane has done a good job with this roster. Not perfect, but it stands up overall to most of the other top rosters in the league with the exception of Philly and Detroit...and maybe Baltimore. Sure, it doesn't have as many household names, but that doesn't mean it's not loaded with good to very good players.

 

[FireChans]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

Wtf are you talking about? Beane gave Diggs that contract because in that particular season when it happened, all of a sudden the WR market started to increase unexpectedly. Davante Adams got traded to and paid a crap ton from the Raiders, Tyreek Hill got traded to Miami and signed an insane deal and Beane have Diggs a Market based deal deservingly so at the time. He parted ways with Diggs this year because it was clear to see Diggs wore out his welcome and didn't want to be here anymore. I can guarantee, if Diggs keeps his mouth shut and plays, he is on this team this year. He forced himself out. Beane chose to get rid of the toxicity Diggs brought. How do you not understand this?

 

 

Diggs had 2 years left on his deal.

 

The only players that Beane gave a big money extension to with 2 years+ left on their deals was Josh and Diggs. One is our franchise QB for 15+ years. The other was a disgruntle-prone WR with a history of forcing himself off teams in the past. 
 

Diggs did not deserve an extension. He was given one to keep him happy, and it eliminated any motivation for him to keep being a good soldier. Beane played with fire in the form of a volatile WR, and got burned. Diggs didn’t play a single snap on his extension, and Beane has to own that mistake.

1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said:

They’re giving LaFleur credit for developing Jordan Love, but somehow developing Josh Allen happened independent of Sean McDermott? Make it make sense. 

What do you specifically think McDermott did to develop Josh? Do you think he broke down his mechanics and helped clean up his footwork?

 

I think McD hired the guys who did that. And kudos to him for doing so. But there’s a difference when you are the guy who DOES that or the guy who hires the right guys to do that. 

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

What do you specifically think McDermott did to develop Josh? Do you think he broke down his mechanics and helped clean up his footwork?

 

I think McD hired the guys who did that. And kudos to him for doing so. But there’s a difference when you are the guy who DOES that or the guy who hires the right guys to do that. 

 

He allowed the offensive coordinator to not baby Josh. He let them put a lot on the Quarterback from day one in an effort to speed up the mental development where he had a distance to travel coming from Wyoming to the NFL in terms of defenses faced.

 

He also, contrary to everyone's expectations, did not force Josh to play small ball. You can argue that's happened some in the last 12 months, but 7 years in. Indeed after the Cleveland debacle in 2019 where Josh had got so in his own head about making mistakes he was doing a passable impression of a white Tyrod Taylor out there holding the ball forever it was McDermott who called him in on the Monday and told him to play free and cut loose and they'd live with the consequences. 

 

Was he involved in Josh's technical refinement? No. But he was big in the mental aspect of how they managed Josh those first 2 or 3 years IMO. 

 

I famously did not like the pick. But even as a Josh Allen sceptic my take in the draft process was if you pick him you have to take your lumps with him. Trying to force fit him into a safe offense as a game manager would have been a disaster. And I think there are NFL coaches who would have been guilty of that.

 

Josh Allen's talent and work ethic are the main reasons Josh Allen is great. But the organisation did a good job of identifying and developing him. Even to the framework they put around him from year 2 onwards (the offense Beane built for him as a rookie was by the GM's own admission "awful")

[Buffalo03]

36 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Diggs had 2 years left on his deal.

 

The only players that Beane gave a big money extension to with 2 years+ left on their deals was Josh and Diggs. One is our franchise QB for 15+ years. The other was a disgruntle-prone WR with a history of forcing himself off teams in the past. 
 

Diggs did not deserve an extension. He was given one to keep him happy, and it eliminated any motivation for him to keep being a good soldier. Beane played with fire in the form of a volatile WR, and got burned. Diggs didn’t play a single snap on his extension, and Beane has to own that mistake.

What do you specifically think McDermott did to develop Josh? Do you think he broke down his mechanics and helped clean up his footwork?

 

I think McD hired the guys who did that. And kudos to him for doing so. But there’s a difference when you are the guy who DOES that or the guy who hires the right guys to do that. 

I don't blame Beane for giving his Allstars WR at the time fair market value. Again, if Diggs doesn't cause his own way out, he's still here

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Buffalo03 said:

I don't blame Beane for giving his Allstars WR at the time fair market value. Again, if Diggs doesn't cause his own way out, he's still here

And if Beane doesn’t give him a giant extension 2 years early, we don’t have a gigantic dead money cap hit.

[Billsatlastin2018]

Get the Lombardi!

 

THEN, ‘13 seconds’ goes into the back to the future showcase!

 

NOT, before.

[FireChans]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He allowed the offensive coordinator to not baby Josh. He let them put a lot on the Quarterback from day one in an effort to speed up the mental development where he had a distance to travel coming from Wyoming to the NFL in terms of defenses faced.

 

He also, contrary to everyone's expectations, did not force Josh to play small ball. You can argue that's happened some in the last 12 months, but 7 years in. Indeed after the Cleveland debacle in 2019 where Josh had got so in his own head about making mistakes he was doing a passable impression of a white Tyrod Taylor out there holding the ball forever it was McDermott who called him in on the Monday and told him to play free and cut loose and they'd live with the consequences. 

 

Was he involved in Josh's technical refinement? No. But he was big in the mental aspect of how they managed Josh those first 2 or 3 years IMO. 

 

I famously did not like the pick. But even as a Josh Allen sceptic my take in the draft process was if you pick him you have to take your lumps with him. Trying to force fit him into a safe offense as a game manager would have been a disaster. And I think there are NFL coaches who would have been guilty of that.

 

Josh Allen's talent and work ethic are the main reasons Josh Allen is great. But the organisation did a good job of identifying and developing him. Even to the framework they put around him from year 2 onwards (the offense Beane built for him as a rookie was by the GM's own admission "awful")

 Fair enough.

 

I know you have some inside info, but I’m not sure what you say tracks with what we have seen from Dabs/McD’s dynamic. 
 

My understanding is their rift stemmed from their fundamental disagreement on how the offense should’ve been run. I find it far-fetched that they were lockstep on how to develop/design an offense around Josh in 2018 to wanting to kill each other by 2021.

 

Maybe McD completely changed his offensive philosophy once Josh “arrived” in 2020, but I find that unlikely. I think it’s more likely that McD is getting retroactive credit for things that Daboll did that he probably disagreed with at a certain level.

[Einstein's Dog]

45 minutes ago, MDH said:

 

Wait, so "pre-season expectations" equates to Beane not doing a good job? That's one way of looking at it. The fact that this offseason the Bills are going to have to find a way of re-signing a bunch of their good, young, drafted, players tells a different story. Groot, Benford, Benard, Shakir, and Cook are all extension eligible and not all of them are going to be able to be paid - which is a good problem to have. That's a GM restocking the shelves and knowing when to move on from an aging roster because you realize that you have up and coming talent to fill the void. There was talent there, it's just that many people didn't realize it. I'll agree that his FA signings haven't been great, so that's on him, though Rapp and Hollins have been good additions to the roster - and that Rapp contract looks better by the week.

 

It's interesting to me that you're going back to the offseason talking points to talk about team building issues, and not the ACTUAL issue with the team - the DL.  They have one stand out player there - Rousseau (who, btw, is WAY better than most give him credit for, he's a difference maker.) Unfortunately, everyone else is a JAG or a good player that just isn't having a good year - Oliver. My only hope here is that Miller finds the fountain of youth for a 3-4 game playoff run. I'll put the DL weakness directly on Beane. It's been an issue for years despite resources being piled into it. I'd love to see McD "cover up for Beane" there, but unfortunately it's the weakness that gets us bounced in the playoffs pretty much every year.

 

That said, overall Beane has done a good job with this roster. Not perfect, but it stands up overall to most of the other top rosters in the league with the exception of Philly and Detroit...and maybe Baltimore. Sure, it doesn't have as many household names, but that doesn't mean it's not loaded with good to very good players.

 

My saying pre-season meant prior to the season, Beane has rectified the WR room with A Cooper.   But prior to A Cooper there was a dramatic year to year downgrade in talent in the WR room.

 

Same with the safeties.  Going from Poyer/Hyde to Rapp/Hamlin was looked at as a talent downgrade done for cost savings.  The safety room is now being upgraded with Hyde over Hamlin.

 

I agree that overall Beane has done a good job. 

But in September it looked like it was going to be the first year where Beane had downgraded the talent from the prior year.  Yes, they were calling it a retool, but we saw what looked to be downgrades at positions, replaced with cheaper labor done as a way to meet cap restraints.  Dealing with the cap is a big part of Beane's job, so this year was looking like he was taking his medicine for supplying talent in prior years.

 

McDermott took this retooled group and has them sitting at 11-2 with talent on the way - A Cooper, Milano, Hyde.  Good times ahead.

[Buffalo03]

33 minutes ago, FireChans said:

And if Beane doesn’t give him a giant extension 2 years early, we don’t have a gigantic dead money cap hit.

Ok. Let's look at this for a second. You realize that the contract that Diggs was playing on was the one he had from Minnesota, correct? After his first 2 years in Buffalo, he outplayed that contract. Dhop was making almost $30 million a wear in Arizona. Davante just got traded that same off-season and was making almost $30 million a season. Tyreek Hill also got traded that same season and made almost $30 million a year. Diggs at the time was still a top 5 WR and was making about $8 or $9 million less a year than those guys and Beane have him a new deal and compensated him fairly with a new deal to give him market rate. It didn't work out but that happens and it was because of Diggs attitude problem. I'm not sure what you don't get about that. It's like I tell people about the Von Miller deal. Yes, now it looks terrible. But I understand at the time why he made that deal. And Von's first year before his injury, it looked like money well spent. That would be like him giving Allen a massive new deal after this season and then Allen follows it with the 3 worst seasons of his career and then people scream "well, that's on Beane". He gave Diggs market at the time. He had no intention of letting Diggs go 2 years into that deal when he made it

Edited December 7 by Buffalo03

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 Fair enough.

 

I know you have some inside info, but I’m not sure what you say tracks with what we have seen from Dabs/McD’s dynamic. 
 

My understanding is their rift stemmed from their fundamental disagreement on how the offense should’ve been run. I find it far-fetched that they were lockstep on how to develop/design an offense around Josh in 2018 to wanting to kill each other by 2021.

 

Maybe McD completely changed his offensive philosophy once Josh “arrived” in 2020, but I find that unlikely. I think it’s more likely that McD is getting retroactive credit for things that Daboll did that he probably disagreed with at a certain level.

 

I think there is a difference between McDermott wanting Daboll to run it more and what I am talking about which is asking the Quarterback to be responsible for reading the field and run a proper offense. They didn't hide him with a ton of half field reads and gimmicks. It's fair that not putting him in a heavy run scheme was part of that too... but I don't think McDermott was ever advocating for a heavy run scheme. The Bills are still one of the top neutral situation passing teams by the numbers. He just wanted Dabes to run it more than when he'd go like 12 passes in a row etc (and to be clear I had no issue with Dabes doing that).

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

Ok. Let's look at this for a second. You realize that the contract that Diggs was playing on was the one he had from Minnesota, correct? After his first 2 years in Buffalo, he outplayed that contract. Dhop was making almost $30 million a wear in Arizona. Davante just got traded that same off-season and was making almost $30 million a season. Tyreek Hill also got traded that same season and made almost $30 million a year. Diggs at the time was still a top 5 WR and was making about $8 or $9 million less a year than those guys and Beane have him a new deal and compensated him fairly with a new deal to give him market rate. It didn't work out but that happens and it was because of Diggs attitude problem. I'm not sure what you don't get about that. It's like I tell people about the Von Miller deal. Yes, now it looks terrible. But I understand at the time why he made that deal. And Von's first year before his injury, it looked like money well spent. That would be like him giving Allen a massive new deal after this season and then Allen follows it with the 3 worst seasons of his career and then people scream "well, that's on Beane". He gave Diggs market at the time. He had no intention of letting Diggs go 2 years into that deal when he made it

I’m not saying I don’t understand why he gave him the extension. I know exactly why he did. 
 

He wanted to reward a guy with a reputation of being volatile so he didn’t become disgruntled. And he went against the philosophy that every single player outside of Josh Allen was treated with, “no extensions with more than 1 year left on your current deal.”
 

He was wrong. He misplayed it and Diggs became disgruntled anyway.

You are trying to say because he had his reasons, he is blameless. He is not. No GM in the NFL who gives a gigantic extension and then trades that player, accumulating the highest non-QB dead hit is blameless. 

If the Cardinals gave some random dude $70M in guaranteed and cut him before he played a snap, their GM would get killed. Rightfully so. Their job is to be right.