McD: Has your view changed?

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

2018 they didn’t make the playoffs in the regular season match up. 2022 they went 3-4 before that game, then went on to win out until the Super bowl. 2024 they won’t be a playoff team. 
 

Two match ups when the don’t even make the playoffs and two with Jimmy G. But who cares about context. It just forces you to think.
 

Not that any of that speaks to the false assumption that KC is the only team we can’t beat.

They weren’t even a playoff team two of those years and two other a guy who isn’t even a starting NFL QB now was the starter for them. 

 

So Shanahan has never beaten Reid. McDermott has beaten him more than any other active coach and yet you conclude the former is more likely to beat him?

 

EDIT: Oh and just for the record McDermott won a game in Kansas City when he was clearly inferior at Quarterback (with Tyrod Taylor v Alex Smith) coming off two disastrous blow outs vs the Saints and the Chargers. He then last year went there at 6-6 when his coaching obituaries were being written and his back was against the wall and won. So it isn't only Shanahan who has had "context" vs KC. He just has never got it done.

 

As I said the other day... this whole thread is confirmation bias.

Edited December 6 by GunnerBill

[JGMcD2]

7 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

2018 they didn’t make the playoffs in the regular season match up. 2022 they went 3-4 before that game, then went on to win out until the Super bowl. 2024 they won’t be a playoff team. 
 

Two match ups when the don’t even make the playoffs and two with Jimmy G. But who cares about context. It just forces you to think.
 

Not that any of that speaks to the false assumption that KC is the only team we can’t beat.

Yeah, that’s kind of the point. They’re being revered for all of the talent they’ve assembled, but yet they’re on their way to missing the playoffs in 4/8 seasons. 
 

They made the decision to trade for Jimmy G and make him the highest paid QB at the time. It’s easy to say in retrospect to say he limited them, but they hitched their wagon to him thinking he was going to take them to the promise land. They made the decision to give up 3 first round picks to select Trey Lance, only to give up on developing him after 4 starts. These decisions are an indictment on them, and a pretty big ones at that. 
 

But who cares about context, forces you to think. 

Edited December 6 by JGMcD2

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, FireChans said:

I think McD with the 49ers from 2020-2024 and they are a fringe WC team, not a SB appearance team. 

A fringe WC team.  lol.  Mcd was that with a no talent team that had tyrod at the helm.  The Niners are loaded with talent-  maybe not a SB appearance team- but maybe.  
 

SF was a SB team because he hasn’t been in Mahomes’ conference.  Flip the Bills into the NFC and Allen and Mahomes would’ve had at least a couple SB matchups.  Put Shanny in the AFC and he has zero appearances.  

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So Shanahan has never beaten Reid. McDermott has beaten him more than any other active coach and yet you conclude the former is more likely to beat him?

 

EDIT: Oh and just for the record McDermott won a game in Kansas City when he was clearly inferior at Quarterback (with Tyrod Taylor v Alex Smith) coming off two disastrous blow outs vs the Saints and the Chargers. He then last year went there at 6-6 when his coaching obituaries were being written and his back was against the wall and won. So it isn't only Shanahan who has had "context" vs KC. He just has never got it done.

 

As I said the other day... this whole thread is confirmation bias.

Indeed

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Seems to me like the primary missing condition is that he just has to coach better in the playoffs. 

 

 

I mean if Kyle had coached better in the 4th Quarter of either of the playoff meetings vs Reid he'd have won one. 

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't understand this take at all, and it's not the first time I've seen it. You're basically saying that the three best QBs in the NFL right now wouldn't fit into Shanahan's offense. That doesn't make any sense. There's no offensive system where Brock Purdy can be reasonably successful but three elite QBs wouldn't have been able to develop.

 

Where did Josh struggle coming out of college.  He struggled reading defenses and making quick throws especially to RBs - that is exactly what the Shanahan offense is predicted on. 
 

Even now Josh struggles with passes to RBs in screen situations or quickly when they leak out into the flat and throwing some quick slants (like to Cooper last weekend).  When he came out that was nearly non existent.

 

Early in his career - Josh held the ball and hit guys much deeper when they cleared open and when that wasn’t available he took off and ran.  That was exactly the problem Lance had and even though Shanahan drafted Lance 3rd overall - he never even gave him a real chance to grow.  Why would anyone believe he would have given Josh the freedom to grow and become the player he is.

 

The Shanahan (and by extension McDaniel) offense is set up to give the QBs quick reads and throws and get the ball out immediately and that has been the QBs that have been more successful.  Give them Josh 6-7 years in where he has developed and he will be successful, but to assume that Shanahan would have gotten that growth is not something I can do - especially seeing as Shanahan has already shown a lack of patience with a raw QB with similar skills to Josh when he didn’t play within the structure of the offense.

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

They don’t watch Niners games. 
 

Brock makes plays off schedule all the time. It’s probably his best skill and the biggest difference between him and Jimmy G, and it doesn’t hold a candle to Allen’s ability to extend plays.

 

Bull - the reason they love Purdy was because of his quick processing and getting the ball out to the right player on schedule.  It means hitting now CMC in the flat in stride as soon as he clears the defense, or hitting a slant right after the snap before the defense can react.

 

Yes Purdy has made some plays off schedule, but it is very limited - the same as Tua in Miami with McDaniel.  he wants them to play with the structure and when they don’t- (see Lance who struggled with that (very similar to Josh early) - Shanahan moved on

 

Could Shanahan have adapted - maybe, but the available data suggests he would rather have a QB that plays within his structure and offensive scheme than develop a QB that has different strengths.  He choose Jimmy G as his 1st QB - that was not forced on him.  He then chose to develop Mr. Irrelevant in Purdy over #3 pick Lance.  Those were not things forced on him - those were his choices.  
 

If he had held to his convictions- the other QB he would have grabbed was Mac Jones.  
 

 

[Rochesterfan]

30 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean if Kyle had coached better in the 4th Quarter of either of the playoff meetings vs Reid he'd have won one. 

Everyone kills McD for 13 seconds - Shanahan has had multiple versions of that as an OC and HC at the biggest moment, but because he is not the Bills coach - they laud him for making it and losing and being totally out coached.

 

🤦‍♂️

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Bull - the reason they love Purdy was because of his quick processing and getting the ball out to the right player on schedule.  It means hitting now CMC in the flat in stride as soon as he clears the defense, or hitting a slant right after the snap before the defense can react.

 

Yes Purdy has made some plays off schedule, but it is very limited - the same as Tua in Miami with McDaniel.  he wants them to play with the structure and when they don’t- (see Lance who struggled with that (very similar to Josh early) - Shanahan moved on

 

Could Shanahan have adapted - maybe, but the available data suggests he would rather have a QB that plays within his structure and offensive scheme than develop a QB that has different strengths.  He choose Jimmy G as his 1st QB - that was not forced on him.  He then chose to develop Mr. Irrelevant in Purdy over #3 pick Lance.  Those were not things forced on him - those were his choices.  
 

If he had held to his convictions- the other QB he would have grabbed was Mac Jones.  
 

 

 

To me the point is less Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes would "fail" in Shanahan's offense. They are elite talents, while they both came into the league needing some development and got developed pretty well where they landed (Patrick on his footwork, Josh on his decision making, accuracy and exposure to complex defensive schemes), I have to believe they'd have found a way. It's that Kyle wouldn't target that type of player particularly and if he did he might have pulled the plug quickly. I don't know that Lance was ever the answer, I do know that pulling the plug on a guy after 3 games because he couldn't run your offense is kind of indicative of who Kyle is. There is no room for compromise. Not fitting his system to what his players do. You are running Kyle's scheme and you are running it the way he wants it run or, quite simply, you don't get on the field (there is a similarity to McDermott there in the sense that he has a very similar stubborn streak about guys who can't run his defense just the way he wants it executed).

 

Kyle wants a certain profile of Quarterback and that profile is Matt Schaub, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy G and Brock Purdy. Now when he got someone of that ilk who was top class (Matt Ryan who was at his peak not quite elite but probably a top 6 Quarterback) his offense was unstoppable until he bungled away a Superbowl with playcalling. So I'm just not sure a Shanahan team would ever draft Allen or Mahomes. They'd draft a Joe Burrow if they got a shot. They might have drafted a Tua. I think they'd have drafted Lawrence (in fact he might be the best guy for this who was a real talent and would be a poster child for Shanahan). They wanted to draft Sam Darnold (by the way do not rule out them taking him back next year and giving him a legit chance to compete to start) but were out of position to do so. But a Jordan Love or a Jalen Hurts? Nah. Not gonna be his type. 

 

And then the other point about Shanahan and a star Quarterback.... I believe it might be an explosive relationship. Because in Kyle's offense there is only room for one name in lights. And it has to be his. 

Edited December 6 by GunnerBill

[Mikie2times]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So Shanahan has never beaten Reid. McDermott has beaten him more than any other active coach and yet you conclude the former is more likely to beat him?

 

EDIT: Oh and just for the record McDermott won a game in Kansas City when he was clearly inferior at Quarterback (with Tyrod Taylor v Alex Smith) coming off two disastrous blow outs vs the Saints and the Chargers. He then last year went there at 6-6 when his coaching obituaries were being written and his back was against the wall and won. So it isn't only Shanahan who has had "context" vs KC. He just has never got it done.

 

As I said the other day... this whole thread is confirmation bias.

The point isn’t that complicated. Jimmy G is playing against one of the best of all time in most that sample. You’re absolutely off your meds if you think McD is taking Jimmy G and Brock Purdy to the playoffs 7 of 8 seasons. 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean if Kyle had coached better in the 4th Quarter of either of the playoff meetings vs Reid he'd have won one. 

 

I don't discount that. But it's also true that if Garappolo and Purdy played at even a 75% playoff Josh Allen level the 49ers would have two Super Bowls right now. And so to me it seems that with the 49ers the QB gap has been significantly larger than the coaching gap, and with us it's been the opposite. The 49ers defense this past Super Bowl held the Chiefs to 3 points in the 1st half and then intercepted Mahomes at midfield to start the 2nd half. Can you imagine if we ever had a playoff result like that against them? We're winning by two scores at least. The problem was Purdy couldn't hit a single throw from a messy pocket. It isn't reasonable to look at that result and say "Shanahan can't beat Reid," while simultaneously looking at our result against the Chiefs in the divisional round and say "McDermott got unlucky." The Bills defensive stats in the playoffs are what they are. The goofy coaching decisions in some of our playoff losses are what they are. You can't just hand wave that all away. Eventually McDermott just has to get it done with this QB. I think it is more than reasonable to want a change if he can't get it done this season or next.

 

Edited December 6 by HappyDays

[DrDawkinstein]

I know McD is #2 on 4th down aggressiveness only behind Dan Campbell...

 

But does anyone think McD pulls off what Campbell and the Lions did last night, going for it on 4th down and sealing the game as opposed to kicking the FG with 50sec left and hoping to play defense?

 

I appreciate McD's usual aggressiveness, but I'm betting he chooses to play defense (playing not to lose instead of playing to win), and then it's 50/50 from there whether his defense gets a stop (history not in his favor).

 

 

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

A fringe WC team.  lol.  Mcd was that with a no talent team that had tyrod at the helm.  The Niners are loaded with talent-  maybe not a SB appearance team- but maybe.  
 

SF was a SB team because he hasn’t been in Mahomes’ conference.  Flip the Bills into the NFC and Allen and Mahomes would’ve had at least a couple SB matchups.  Put Shanny in the AFC and he has zero appearances.  

Indeed

Are you saying you think McD would have gone to 3 NFCCG’s, and a SB with 4 seasons of Jimmy G and Brock Purdy at QB as HC of the Niners?

 

You’re welcome to that take but I do not agree.

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I know McD is #2 on 4th down aggressiveness only behind Dan Campbell...

 

But does anyone think McD pulls off what Campbell and the Lions did last night, going for it on 4th down and sealing the game as opposed to kicking the FG with 50sec left and hoping to play defense?

 

I appreciate McD's usual aggressiveness, but I'm betting he chooses to play defense (playing not to lose instead of playing to win), and then it's 50/50 from there whether his defense gets a stop (history not in his favor).

 

 

Didn’t McD just go for a 4th and 2 to beat KC rather then let them get the ball back like 3 weeks ago?

3 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Bull - the reason they love Purdy was because of his quick processing and getting the ball out to the right player on schedule.  It means hitting now CMC in the flat in stride as soon as he clears the defense, or hitting a slant right after the snap before the defense can react.

 

Yes Purdy has made some plays off schedule, but it is very limited - the same as Tua in Miami with McDaniel.  he wants them to play with the structure and when they don’t- (see Lance who struggled with that (very similar to Josh early) - Shanahan moved on

 

Could Shanahan have adapted - maybe, but the available data suggests he would rather have a QB that plays within his structure and offensive scheme than develop a QB that has different strengths.  He choose Jimmy G as his 1st QB - that was not forced on him.  He then chose to develop Mr. Irrelevant in Purdy over #3 pick Lance.  Those were not things forced on him - those were his choices.  
 

If he had held to his convictions- the other QB he would have grabbed was Mac Jones.  
 

 

Brock Purdy and Tua are not in the same ballpark when you are talking making off-schedule plays. 
 

How many Niners games have you watched in the last 2 years?

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Didn’t McD just go for a 4th and 2 to beat KC rather then let them get the ball back like 3 weeks ago?

 

Good point, good point. Credit to McD.

 

Good illustration of some of the growth and learning McD has shown this year now that he is back to full-time HC.

 

 

Edited December 6 by DrDawkinstein

[Rochesterfan]

55 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The point isn’t that complicated. Jimmy G is playing against one of the best of all time in most that sample. You’re absolutely off your meds if you think McD is taking Jimmy G and Brock Purdy to the playoffs 7 of 8 seasons. 

 

No the point is Jimmy G was their choice - that is who they chose as their QB.  Then when they couldn’t win they moved up and gave up a ton of picks for Trey and then failed to even try to develop him.  They preferred a lesser talent in Mr. Irrelevant and have gone that route.

 

They have made 3 separate choices at QB and people say look they got farther with lesser QBs - that should be a huge flag against these guys.  Since they were hired they have gotten their QB and failed.  
 

In addition- by having a lesser QB - they are saving 60+ million that they have used on 3-4 elite talent at OT, DE, WR, and RB.  Once they pay the QB see what happens with Miami - talent at other positions has to go away.  They are living in the moment, but now they have to decide - do they move on from Purdy and try to start over or do they pay Purdy and begin to dismantle that other talent that everyone drools over.

 

 

 

And if we are honest - give McD that defensive talent and ask him to play conservative and run to win - yes I think he has a better record than Shanny with that team.  And to better than Shanny - they only have to make the playoffs 1/2 the time and he showed he could do it with Tyrod as the QB and no WR talent and forming a defense - yes I think he could do a lot with that extra talent.

23 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I know McD is #2 on 4th down aggressiveness only behind Dan Campbell...

 

But does anyone think McD pulls off what Campbell and the Lions did last night, going for it on 4th down and sealing the game as opposed to kicking the FG with 50sec left and hoping to play defense?

 

I appreciate McD's usual aggressiveness, but I'm betting he chooses to play defense (playing not to lose instead of playing to win), and then it's 50/50 from there whether his defense gets a stop (history not in his favor).

 

 

 

You mean like he did against KC to win the game?

 

 

Edited December 6 by Rochesterfan

[Rochesterfan]

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Are you saying you think McD would have gone to 3 NFCCG’s, and a SB with 4 seasons of Jimmy G and Brock Purdy at QB as HC of the Niners?

 

You’re welcome to that take but I do not agree.

Didn’t McD just go for a 4th and 2 to beat KC rather then let them get the ball back like 3 weeks ago?

Brock Purdy and Tua are not in the same ballpark when you are talking making off-schedule plays. 
 

How many Niners games have you watched in the last 2 years?

 

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Are you saying you think McD would have gone to 3 NFCCG’s, and a SB with 4 seasons of Jimmy G and Brock Purdy at QB as HC of the Niners?

 

You’re welcome to that take but I do not agree.

Didn’t McD just go for a 4th and 2 to beat KC rather then let them get the ball back like 3 weeks ago?

Brock Purdy and Tua are not in the same ballpark when you are talking making off-schedule plays. 
 

How many Niners games have you watched in the last 2 years?

 

I don’t know - I have probably watched at least 20 -25 49ers games over the last 2 years maybe more and yes Tua and Purdy are not in the same class making off schedule plays because that is not how Shanny (or by default McDaniels) want the offense run.

 

Trey Lance in his limited games was playing like early Josh - holding the ball - waiting for plays to open up deeper and taking off when needed and Kyle benched him as quickly as he could because he wasn’t getting the ball out - he didn’t even try to grow him into a player.
 

Look as was said Shanny is in the same ballpark/Tier as McD as a coach, but I wouldn’t trade the 2 from the beginning and believe that the Bills are where they are under Shanny - I don’t think he would of drafted Josh or mentored him to the QB he is.  Maybe he would have, but as he got the QB he wanted in SF with Jimmy G - why do we think that wouldn’t have been our path also.

 

 

 

 

[uticaclub]

23 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I know McD is #2 on 4th down aggressiveness only behind Dan Campbell...

 

But does anyone think McD pulls off what Campbell and the Lions did last night, going for it on 4th down and sealing the game as opposed to kicking the FG with 50sec left and hoping to play defense?

 

I appreciate McD's usual aggressiveness, but I'm betting he chooses to play defense (playing not to lose instead of playing to win), and then it's 50/50 from there whether his defense gets a stop (history not in his favor).

 

 

He just went for it on 4th & 2 against KC because he doesnt trust the defense to stop Mahomes when it matters

[FireChans]

13 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

In addition- by having a lesser QB - they are saving 60+ million that they have used on 3-4 elite talent at OT, DE, WR, and RB

This meme will one day die.

 

Jimmy G’s cap hit in 2020 was $26M. Josh’s was $5.8M

 

In 2021, Jimmy’s cap hit was $26M. Josh’s was $10M

 

In 2022, Jimmy’s cap hit was $12.6M. Josh’s was $16.3M.

 

Let’s please stop pretending that Josh has had this big albatross just holding McD back. Sure, it helps that Brock gets paid little now, but they acquired almost all those guys when Jimmy G cost MORE than Josh lol.

[Mikie2times]

58 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Having conversations with the haters is like having them with very little kids who have not been to school, have not experienced life, and are so lacking  that when the ball rolls under the coach they think it has just disappeared.

 

In other words, no point, they have their bizarre and irrational minds made up, and that is the way it is, no facts, reasoning needed.  Though they think they have an abundance of each, like most who operate in a world of ignorance.

 

And so they also  think ridiculous, and cliche childless name calling--see bold above--gives them some kind of credence. 

 

But of course, it just makes them look more irrational--and even more ignorant.

 

Like several have said so well on this thread, it was designed to be  a hate thread, a bashing of McDermott and the Bills, and all who support them. And never was going to be an intelligent conversation.

 

 Duh.

 

 

 

 

Can somebody else have an opposing view than you and not be a hater, little kid, no life experience, irrational, bizarre, ignorant, and you expect to have this turn into an intelligent conversation?  Wow. Sounds good.

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

This meme will one day die.

 

Jimmy G’s cap hit in 2020 was $26M. Josh’s was $5.8M

 

In 2021, Jimmy’s cap hit was $26M. Josh’s was $10M

 

In 2022, Jimmy’s cap hit was $12.6M. Josh’s was $16.3M.

 

Let’s please stop pretending that Josh has had this big albatross just holding McD back. Sure, it helps that Brock gets paid little now, but they acquired almost all those guys when Jimmy G cost MORE than Josh lol.

 

Yes they acquired them as draft picks and now that they have to pay them - they are in the same boat as the Bills.

 

If they pay Purdy - they are looking at letting some DL and a WR go.  It is a choice that teams make.

 

SF went for a veteran QB and built the defense by draft.  The Bills drafted a QB and built the defense by FA and are now transitioning the other way.

 

 

I also noticed how convenient you stopped there :

 

2024 Josh counts over 30 million in cap and 60 million in cash

2024 Purdy - 1.004 million in cap

 

That 29 million allows Nick Bosh, Deebo, and your choice of Lenoir or Floyd to cover cap only.  
 

They have 1 more year and then need to decide are they going forward with Purdy or back to drafting another QB and shot #4.

 

 

 

Edited December 6 by Rochesterfan

[Buffalo03]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To me the point is less Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes would "fail" in Shanahan's offense. They are elite talents, while they both came into the league needing some development and got developed pretty well where they landed (Patrick on his footwork, Josh on his decision making, accuracy and exposure to complex defensive schemes), I have to believe they'd have found a way. It's that Kyle wouldn't target that type of player particularly and if he did he might have pulled the plug quickly. I don't know that Lance was ever the answer, I do know that pulling the plug on a guy after 3 games because he couldn't run your offense is kind of indicative of who Kyle is. There is no room for compromise. Not fitting his system to what his players do. You are running Kyle's scheme and you are running it the way he wants it run or, quite simply, you don't get on the field (there is a similarity to McDermott there in the sense that he has a very similar stubborn streak about guys who can't run his defense just the way he wants it executed).

 

Kyle wants a certain profile of Quarterback and that profile is Matt Schaub, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy G and Brock Purdy. Now when he got someone of that ilk who was top class (Matt Ryan who was at his peak not quite elite but probably a top 6 Quarterback) his offense was unstoppable until he bungled away a Superbowl with playcalling. So I'm just not sure a Shanahan team would ever draft Allen or Mahomes. They'd draft a Joe Burrow if they got a shot. They might have drafted a Tua. I think they'd have drafted Lawrence (in fact he might be the best guy for this who was a real talent and would be a poster child for Shanahan). They wanted to draft Sam Darnold (by the way do not rule out them taking him back next year and giving him a legit chance to compete to start) but were out of position to do so. But a Jordan Love or a Jalen Hurts? Nah. Not gonna be his type. 

 

And then the other point about Shanahan and a star Quarterback.... I believe it might be an explosive relationship. Because in Kyle's offense there is only room for one name in lights. And it has to be his. 

In Shannahan's defense, Lance can't even beat out Cooper Rush for the backup job in Dallas. That has to obviously say something