What’s it gonna take to improve /prioritize our run defense?

[YattaOkasan]

10 minutes ago, PoundingDog said:

It is not a problem until it is a problem. But let's face it, it is THE place where an offensive guru like Reid will look to explore. And I'll add it is NOT just defending the run, it is also defending passing games derived from the run concept like the Bills were able to do this year with great success.

 

It's OK to say I don't mind you run on us. It's another you give up 10+ yard run on regular basis. And this year, people noticed we have done that -- 10+ yards and the passes of 10+ yard off the run concept given up. To the opposing offense, it is the same thing like we have been saying of our offense prior to this year, when you can't run with some success, everything looks hard, even for great QBs like Mahomes and Allen; they have to make exceptional plays one after another. One game, sure. Two games in a row, OK (maybe). Three games in a row, less likely, especially in playoffs with increasingly stronger opponent.

 

I don't believe McDermott is going to change his schemes. Finding a stud on D line or a MLB (above Bernard level) is critical and so far, we have not done that. They invested heavily on DE but really not much in DT. Oliver and Carter are the only draft picks in Beane and McDermott era and I found that puzzling. Maybe the requirement for DT in this defense is so high that they don't believe any of the later round picks in the past few years could develop into that guy in their eyes so they opted to sign known veterans. I hope the Carter pick starts the change of that philosophy.

This is the best arguement so far for why its a problem.  I put stats above on Passer Rating but YPC in our losses has been around 6.  That could open up the pass a bit.  Worth noting our worst playoff loss in '20 was the one in which we stopped the run the best (though the offense looked out matched in that game).  Some of it is weird though.  Hardman pops a 50 yarder on 1 carry in 21.   Thats not a traditional run play.  Burrow has 21 yarder in '22 not a traditional run play or what he typically does.  Last year CEH and Pacheco (ended up not being a scoring drive) get explosives from traditional run 

Edited December 3 by YattaOkasan

[boyst]

1 minute ago, Mat68 said:

Lewis and Ingram were getting bodied.  You have to try and stop it at that point.  Hard to play Nickel with back ups at nickel, both linebakers and safety vs Baltimore. 

I've been wondering what it would be like to have a big body LB who can play nickel. Taron Johnson is smaller. Cooper DeJean isn't big either, barely bigger than Johnson. 

 

I can't think of a template player but someone who could cover the TE, 6'+, and 220. Basically, a pass coverage LB but strictly nickel. 

[julian]

8 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I don't share your optimism there.  I think the Detroit game is the "medicine" game before the playoffs where they are humbled and realize they need to take things up a notch for the stretch run.  The Bills aren't really built to stop an offense like that one but they'll need to find some solutions before they face Baltimore and KC (with Pacheco and Humphries this time) in January.

I’ll just add that the Lions are suffering a sh*t load of injuries on the defensive side of the ball right now, they’re signing dudes outta the stands to field an 11 man unit.

 

On a side note, am I the only one wondering if maybe Henry wears  down going into the stretch run considering his age and usage? I know he’s a freak of nature, but at some point the inevitable hits every rb.

Edited December 3 by julian

[mannc]

30 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

Ed flashes at times, but he’s frequently manhandled by bigger, stronger O-linemen. The big-bodied DT often occupies 2 blockers, which can free up other defenders, increase the impact of the guy on the edge or blitzing safeties/LBs. 

The Bills are weak right in the middle. Baltimore exposed that weakness. The teams the Bills should fear most are those with power RBs like Derrick Henry. 
 

The key with those teams is not to fall behind…

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think you do if the best option you have is Nicholas Morrow who is utterly terrible. You were still taking off better players to bring on a worse one. 

 

That is EXACTLY what we did. Monken set the trap and Babich walked right into it.

If that score wasn't made on the first play we would have had an entirely different game. The Bills seemingly gave up just down 1 TD. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And their blocking scheme was entirely designed to do that. They regularly let a Bills defensive lineman penetrate for the benefit of having a bigger bodies lineman downhill on pour backup second level guys. 

 

And then they got Babich to panic and go "big" with a 4-3 and Morrow in the game. At which point they Justice Hill'd us to death for two drives to go up 21-3. That was the critical passage in the game IMO. The Bills should have stayed patient in their nickel base. 

 

The 80 something yarder was a trap play to get oliver up field so you don't have to double him.  which allows you to double DQ.  Groot stays on the edge and there's a gaping hole where spector needs to fill.  He was tentative and let the double flow right into him and essentially didn't do anything to disrupt the play.  If you shoot the gap and miss at least you forced him to break a tackle and slow him down.  

[mannc]

9 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I don't share your optimism there.  I think the Detroit game is the "medicine" game before the playoffs where they are humbled and realize they need to take things up a notch for the stretch run.  The Bills aren't really built to stop an offense like that one but they'll need to find some solutions before they face Baltimore and KC (with Pacheco and Humphries this time) in January.

I actually think Detroit is overrated.  They damn near lost to a crappy Bears team at home.  If we don’t fall behind early, we will cause a lot of problems for them.

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, mannc said:

I actually think Detroit is overrated.  They damn near lost to a crappy Bears team at home.  If we don’t fall behind early, we will cause a lot of problems for them.

 

Yeah maybe.  I don't read too much into divisional games, they're often close and wonky because the teams know each other so well.  

[Eastport bills]

They have made a conscious decision to take away down field splash plays by receivers between the 20s, sacrificing heavy boxes to defend running lanes. This strategy as described by Collingsworth, makes offenses go long fields without mistakes and usually translates to FG attempts after our defense clamps down on the run game in the red zone or from the 30 yard line in.

[YattaOkasan]

4 minutes ago, boyst said:

I've been wondering what it would be like to have a big body LB who can play nickel. Taron Johnson is smaller. Cooper DeJean isn't big either, barely bigger than Johnson. 

 

I can't think of a template player but someone who could cover the TE, 6'+, and 220. Basically, a pass coverage LB but strictly nickel. 

DeJean gets to play behind Jalen Carter.  Certain we would take that player if he were available.  But I dont see DeJean as a better player than Taron though slightly bigger.  I think he benefits from an otherworldly DL in front of him.

[Mat68]

2 minutes ago, boyst said:

I've been wondering what it would be like to have a big body LB who can play nickel. Taron Johnson is smaller. Cooper DeJean isn't big either, barely bigger than Johnson. 

 

I can't think of a template player but someone who could cover the TE, 6'+, and 220. Basically, a pass coverage LB but strictly nickel. 

So Milano and Benard.  2024 you do not design your defense to stop the run.  Benard and Milano would be weak side bakers in the 2000’s and play slot in a 3 wr set.  That defense gets destroyed by modern passing attacks.  Illegal contact gives them 0 chance to win in the slot.  

[PoundingDog]

40 minutes ago, appoo said:

I can almost guarantee you beane isnt going to spend a first round pick on a 1T, when EDGE is a much much bigger need.  
 

And depending on how FA goes WR and CB are behind Edge and ahead of 1T

I know they won't. League wide almost no team will pick a 1T DT without some pass rush ability. Sweat of TEN somehow showed pass rushing ability so far but there is still doubt when he ages a bit, if he can still do that.

 

But 2 round and 3 you can probably find high quality 1T DT.

Edited December 3 by PoundingDog

[YattaOkasan]

One big difference though relative to previous years is that our corners are much better in coverage and we can play more middle of the field closed defenses (cover 1 and cover 3).  This should let us roll a safety into the box when we need to while not really sacrificing much in the passing game.  Though these defenses are weaker against the short passing game (less 2nd level defenders in Cover 3 and horizontal routes can be tough in Cover 1) which has been a sneaky problem for us this year.

Edited December 3 by YattaOkasan

[Buffalo4Life01]

Quick thank you to everyone who has helped summarize the 4-2-5 defense McDermott runs.  I've learned more in last ten minutes reading through this thread than I could ever learn elsewhere.  Props to everyone for sharing the negatives and positives of our defense and for all of the suggestions on how to improve it in the playoffs.  This is why I love this message board.  We really do have the most informed fan base anywhere!!

GO BILLS!!

[BuffaloBillyG]

39 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

No Benard, Johnson and Milano.  Not having any part of the starting second level of the defense greatly impacted their ability to slow down Henry. 

Oh absolutely. As I stated above this defense needs to have all 11 on the same page. New faces lined up and you get communication breakdowns and uncertainty. 

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

It’s scheme and personnel imo. The Bills run a 4-2-5 which was actually created to stop college spread offenses back in the day. To be able to run a 4-2 your Linebackers and added DB(Johnson) need to be your best players on defense because they have to be versatile and be able to do a lot of different thing including coverage on both zone and man against smaller quicker players. 
 

In return to match the current game  of football the Bills have adjusted the 4-2 to adapt by having those 3 said players be incredibly light. Milano 229, Bernard 225, and Johnson 195. This obviously puts you at a disadvantage when you’re running a defense to stop the spread passing game and also countering with very light corps of 3. 
 

Ideally against teams that run downhill with power you would want that hybrid player(Johnson) to be replaced by someone who has the same skills. Hence the McDermott “Big Nickle”. Problem is Johnson is so good that you can’t take him off the field even against those teams. 
 

On the Defensive line, you want guys who can get after the passer with 4 because said back 7 is trying to stop the spread passing game. Those Dlineman also have to be able to run laterally for spread quick game like screens and bubble routes. With that said Ed Oliver is extremely undersized for NFL standards. 
 

So with that lengthy write up , In conclusion the 3 best football players on their defense are extremely undersized and a 4th at DT is also extremely undersized. The Bills have decided that giving up big runs from time to time is okay if it means being incredibly stout in the pass game. They use coaching and supreme talent in their mid 3 to stop the run from time to time setting up teams to pass against their superior talent against the pass. 
 

That’s my basic 4-2-5 lesson for the day 

 

 

Best explanation of the situation I have read.  

 

I would only add that it is a part of the Bills script to play complimentary football.  It’s harder for teams to rely on the run game when they are behind by more than one score.

[SoMAn]

28 minutes ago, mannc said:

The key with those teams is not to fall behind…

Agree. But… if they do get behind and the opponent is running all over, controlling the clock, and keeping MVP candidate Josh Allen on the sidelines, it could spell trouble. I’d just assume the Bills prevent them from gashing the middle of the D. 

Edited December 3 by SoMAn

[Rocky Landing]

Stopping the run has to be a priority for the Bills D, and I have to believe that McD/Babich understand that. The toughest matchup for the Bills are the teams that run the ball well. Even the crappy Lolphins kept the game close with Achane as their best offensive weapon. The Ravens are probably the toughest matchup the Bills have in the league. Other teams match up better with the ravens, and hopefully we won't have to face them in the playoffs.

 

If the Bills make it to the SB, the Lions, and the Eagles are both exceptional at running the ball, with Gibbs, and Barkley. IMO, it comes down to the D-line. With the exception of Groot, they have to do a better job of controlling the run at the LOS. 

 

Milano returning to form would also be huge in this regard. Tackling RBs in the secondary has to be better. When McCaffrey went down the other night, the 9ers lost about 40% of their offense. We have to believe that game would have been much closer, had not been injured. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Teams that had greater than 100 yards rushing TOTAL against buffalo this year.

 

@Indy - Taylor - 114 on 21 carries with 58 coming on 1 carry.  The other 20 carries were for 56 yards.  They went 4-11 on 3rd downs, had 39 pass plays that resulted in 240 yards and 4 turnovers.  Buffalo did a good job keeping them in challenging down and distance. 

 

@NYJ - Hall - 113 on 18 carries with 42 coming on 1 carry.  Rodgers best game in a jet uniform, and one of the worst by the defense.  HOwever - 4-12 on 3rd downs, and the game itself was a messy penalty fest.  

 

Arizona - Conner had 50 yards on 16 carries.  Murray had 57 on 5 carries likely on scrambles.  Add that into his pass total, take out the sacks, and you get 40 pass plays called and about 200 yards, and 270 yards total.  

 

@Miami - 34 carries for 139 - 4 yards per carry. They were 7/15 on 3rd downs but they had 3 turnovers and were 1/5 on 4th downs.  

 

Miami - 137 on 28 carries - As long as mcdaniel is in the division i think the game plan is going to be to take away the pass and wait for mcdaniel to abandon the run.  Tua played great in this one, the run game was working for them... but Bass balls were just too big.  

 

SF - I'm not going to go into any detail since they had 0 passing attack, scored 10 points, 3 turnovers, and i don't think films going to really tell you much other than that the weather was terrible.

 

Baltimore - Henry had the big one, and punished the team all game.  The defense was a mash unit, and lamar had 54 yards on another 6 carries.   

 

 

The jaguars averaged 6 yards per carry against us but were under 100.  They were also down 34-3 at the half

 

[TheBrownBear]

As others have said, you give up somewhat frequent 5-10 yard chunks on the ground to eliminate the higher likelihood of multiple big play passes.  It can seem infuriating watching a team run right down the field against us, but we've generally held up in the redzone.  We don't really have a ton of elite talent on defense, but we are still the 6th best scoring defense, 11th in ypg and 2nd in takeaways.  I can't argue with it too much.

Edited December 3 by TheBrownBear