OT: what did you think of the hit on Lawrence?

[JP51]

I dont know if it was intentional... sure looked that way to me... but if it wasnt intentional it was reckless and uncalled for... you need to be under way better control than that.  So, from him I dont wanna hear split second violent game when you launch yourself in the air like a missle its gonna end poorly 

[TBBills Fan]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

3 games-  just or unjust?

Just

[zow2]

Of course he will miss the Kansas City game. 

[Beck Water]

17 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

It was dirty when that player ran behind Jim McMahon picked him up and dumped him on his head 30 years ago 

 

This was within the bounds of what happens on a football field over the last 30 40 50 60 70 years 

 

It was dirty when the hauschka was walking off the field versus the Jets and he got blindsided out of the play 

 

This is a penalty, but at the speed of the game it happens.. I don't think that dude woke up today and said I'm going to kill Trevor Lawrence

 

 

 

I understand your viewpoint, but the NFL has been making changes attempting to protect players from head injury, and especially to protect QBs.

 

So the last 30 years is no longer relevant - the question is, was it a dirty hit given what the rules are today?  And my answer is "yes, it was, he was properly ejected, and he should be suspended."

 

The NFL has (for good reason) taken "intent" out of the equation.  You don't hit a defenceless player in the helmet or neck.  You might be targeting the ball and hit the head by mistake as Poyer argubly did with Shakir in the first Miami-Bills game, but the NFL says "we don't care what you intend, figure out how to avoid it". 

Same thing with a sliding QB.  You don't slam your arm across a sliding QB's neck.  It's something you can avoid, so they NFL expects you to avoid it.  Put your arm down and roll.

 

Yeah, these are incredible athletes playing at 20 mph, but because they're incredible athletes he is able to  (and expected to) react once he sees Lawrence begin his slide.  

 

I almost never disagree with you on a football question but, I got to disagree here, because the question is whether it's dirty within the NFL rules today, and whether the hit was illegal (not whether he woke up intending to give Lawrence a concussion).
 

17 hours ago, Success said:

First, I hated to see Lawrence hurt like that, as I'm sure everyone did, and hope for a full & fast recovery.

 

When the hit 1st happened, my reaction was the same as everyone else.  Dirty. Unnecessary.  I was kind of angry.

 

But then the entire NFL community goes into self-righteous mode about a play in a game that is inherently violent.  We all watch replays countless times in slo-mo, and think that players who are playing the game at a high speed can adjust on a dime. And there is also the consideration that some QB's try to game the rules around sliding a bit, and trick defenses.  That slide yesterday did appear to be one that was started late, after or simultaneous to the defender positioning for the hit.

 

Obviously, the NFL has to protect QB's.  The hit WAS unnecessary - but I think the reaction against the player has been over the top.  If a player has a pattern of illegal hits & dirty play, that's a different story.  

 

I just hate how this stuff gets so black & white, and people turn into villains instantly.

 

 

I don't want to turn Shaiir into a villain. I agree with you that's an over-reaction.

A similar thing happened with Myles Garrett helmet-slamming The Reindeer, remember that? He was vilified.  Garrett isn't a villain or a bad guy, he's a football player who did something violent and un-called-for in the heat of the moment.  But at this point, it's pretty well forgotten I think, because it wasn't and hasn't since been a pattern of Garretts.

 

But, just as Garrett suffered consequences, Shaiir will suffer consequences.  And if he doesn't demonstrate a pattern of this, it will in time be forgotten.

Edited yesterday at 05:43 PM by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

17 hours ago, NickelCity said:

Nasty play. Exponentially compounded by his behavior for the next several minutes. Wild.

 

I didn't see the game, what was his behavior for the next several minutes?

 

Edit: Got It.

Edited yesterday at 06:11 PM by Beck Water

[SoonerBillsFan]

It wasn't just the hit which was jntentional and illegal, it's all the crap after as well.  This guy plays like a thug who can't control his emotions.

 

 

I agree with what the league says in it's letter.

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/texans-olb-azeez-al-shaair-suspended-three-games-for-illegal-hit-on-trevor-lawrence

[TheFunPolice]

A totally dirty hit, and I'm also surprised it doesn't happen more often...

 

A QB sliding is a sitting duck for that type of hit. Extremely dangerous, and we've seen it plenty of times before too. 

 

You know there are guys who think it's worth trading 15 yards for the other team's backup finishing the game. We all saw Bounty Gate. Not many, maybe almost none. But I bet it isn't zero. 

 

The bigger the game the more "reward" for this type of behavior. What if this was a playoff game? 

 

Edited yesterday at 06:01 PM by TheFunPolice

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

What if this happened to Josh?

 

We would be outraged ?

[Beck Water]

17 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Saying it is an intrinsically dirty play is wrong because it happens at every level of football for a hundred years.. that kind of stuff happens in football unfortunately because the speed of the game

 

I respectfully disagree.  He changed his angle, launched AND hit Trevor across the neck with his braced forearm.  You know you're not supposed to hit a sliding QB.  You know you're not supposed to hit a player in the head.  He did both.  It's sometimes impossible to avoid hitting a sliding player, but you don't have to neck-bar him.
 

8 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

What if this happened to Josh?

We would be outraged ?

 

Yes.  

Edited yesterday at 06:04 PM by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

21 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

It wasn't just the hit which was jntentional and illegal, it's all the crap after as well.  This guy plays like a thug who can't control his emotions.

 

 

I agree with what the league says in it's letter.

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/texans-olb-azeez-al-shaair-suspended-three-games-for-illegal-hit-on-trevor-lawrence

 

Wow, Caserio.  He is not doing the Texans program any favors with the league by presenting Al-Shaair as an exemplar of the Texans program and values.

 

Caserio would be within his rights to question the consistency of discipline, but he needs to say "we understand that the hit was unacceptable.  we have questions about the discipline relative to other discipline and will be reaching out to the league to share our concerns".  Sounds to me that the length of the suspension was influenced by Shaiir's previous behavior and by failing to respect the referee and leave the field after the ejection.

The league has these relatively small, relatively weak refs who need to maintain control of 106+ testosterone-laden, revved-up men playing a violent game.   They are going to be harsh on any behavior that disrespects the ref, for good reason.

Edited yesterday at 06:13 PM by Beck Water

[TheFunPolice]

10 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

What if this happened to Josh?

 

We would be outraged ?

 

Apoplectic!

 

Honestly I worry about this type of hit every time Josh slides...

 

The frustration of the moment, adrenaline, embarrassment at this guy picking up 3rd downs when you think you have him, making crazy plays...

 

I could see it being hard to pull up and not wallop the QB when he's been clowning you all game. As the QB you're totally unprotected (physically I mean) when you slide like that. 

Edited yesterday at 06:13 PM by TheFunPolice

[ddaryl]

I just watched a video of the hit in slow motion. Trevor Lawrence was clearly committing to the slide, all  Al-Shaair had to do was not raise his forearm and make contact with Trevor's head. If Al-Shaiir just leaves his forearm down and skims over Lawrence no penalty is called, and Trevor gets up and plays the next down.

IMO Al Shaiir wanted to hit Trevor Lawrence real hard, the 3 game suspension might even be a little light after seeing clearly how the forearm was raised into position for an intentional hit to the head.

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Wow, Caserio.  He is not doing the Texans program any favors with the league by presenting Al-Shaair as an exemplar of the Texans program and values.

 

Caserio would be within his rights to question the consistency of discipline, but he needs to say "we understand that the hit was unacceptable.  we have questions about the discipline relative to other discipline and will be reaching out to the league to share our concerns".  Sounds to me that the length of the suspension was influenced by Shaiir's previous behavior and by failing to respect the referee and leave the field after the ejection.

The league has these relatively small, relatively weak refs who need to maintain control of 106+ testosterone-laden, revved-up men playing a violent game.   They are going to be harsh on any behavior that disrespects the ref, for good reason.

And he fought after the flag and caused another confrontation on the way off the field.  He just can't control himself. 

[somnus00]

18 hours ago, FireChans said:

How many years ago was it legal to beat your wife?

 

Is this seriously the garbage we are trying to argue right now?

Also, 30 years ago we didn't know about CTE. These are well paid athletes, sure, but they're also human beings who deserve some level of protection.

[wjag]

I think a QB that breaks the pocket and turns into a runner should be treated like a RB.  Slide or no slide. They should be fair game.  This gives QBs like Hurts, Allen and Mahommes an unfair advantage.  They can decide to slide or not and what's a defender supposed to do?

Edited 23 hours ago by wjag

[PetermansRedemption]

I think 3 games is fine. Wouldn’t have minded seeing more. Guy is definitely deserving of it. 

8 minutes ago, wjag said:

I think a QB that breaks the pocket and turns into a runner should be treated like a RB.  Slide or no slide. They should be fair game.  This gives QBs like Hurts, Allen and Mahommes an unfair advantage.  They can decide to slide or not and what's a defender supposed to do?

Don’t hit a guy if he’s on the ground? If Lawrence was standing upright and still running then this wouldn’t be an issue. 

[Danger Mouse]

11 minutes ago, wjag said:

I think a QB that breaks the pocket and turns into a runner should be treated like a RB.  Slide or no slide. They should be fair game.  This gives QBs like Hurts, Allen and Mahommes an unfair advantage.  They can decide to slide or not and what's a defender supposed to do?

Totally agree. 
 

it doesn’t benefit us as we have a rushing qb. But I totally agree. If your playbook depends on the QB rushing, you’ve got to be taking a risk to enjoy that reward. For the sake of the game.

 

same with the ‘tush push’ if the defence jumps and hurts the QB - so be it - you’ll need to run a football play next time instead. 
 

QB isn’t supposed to do this much. The protection given is more about money than sport 

[Scott7975]

Lawrence was in a slide. He knew he was in a slide. Otherwise he wouldn't have went so low to the ground to make the hit. It was intentional.

[Buffalo716]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I respectfully disagree.  He changed his angle, launched AND hit Trevor across the neck with his braced forearm.  You know you're not supposed to hit a sliding QB.  You know you're not supposed to hit a player in the head.  He did both.  It's sometimes impossible to avoid hitting a sliding player, but you don't have to neck-bar him.
 

 

Yes.  

Yea know I wake up to 38 notifications because everybody wants to get in on my hot take 

 

But I really don't want to discuss this much anymore and I've said my peace down the thread 

 

When we played the dolphins weeks ago everybody was ready to call Jordan poyer a dirty player.. for the hit on Coleman.. years of Goodwill just instantly goes right to this guy as a scumbag dirty player 

 

He did also launch into a defenseless player 

 

That's also a penalty that happens in football and I'm not going to crucify Jordan poyer 

 

It happens in football 

 

 

Even in this one jacked up segment from which they praise.. there are multiple head hunting and launching and defenseless players 

 

Things that would be penalties or ejections today 

 

Yes the game changes... But I'm not going to call any of those hits in that video dirty because they were part of the game... If they happen on Sunday they're going to be a flag but it happens in football 

 

What happened to Trevor Lawrence is unfortunate but it does happen in football.. sliding quarterbacks do get jacked up.. whether you want to say it's dirty or not .. it is what it is... It certainly is a penalty now 

 

You can call it dirty but it does happen

 

 

 

Andy Dalton gets his head taken off.. it happens to sliding quarterbacks unfortunately... That hit is also pure helmet to helmet and Bostic was ejected but it's not the first or last time you'll see it

 

What is completely out of the realm of football is taking off your helmet and trying to beat someone with it.. I would consider that more serious than a play on the field

 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Buffalo716

[Beck Water]

44 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yea know I wake up to 38 notifications because everybody wants to get in on my hot take 

But I really don't want to discuss this much anymore and I've said my peace down the thread 

 

Fair.  I didn't read the whole thread before I responded to you.  I won't take it personally if you don't feel moved to respond.

 

44 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

When we played the dolphins weeks ago everybody was ready to call Jordan poyer a dirty player.. for the hit on Coleman.. years of Goodwill just instantly goes right to this guy as a scumbag dirty player 

 

He did also launch into a defenseless player 

 

I wasn't one of them.  He was going for the ball, not Keon's head, on a play where if Keon makes the catch it's over.  'Course, getting penalized meant it was over, but there's always the chance it won't be called.

 

It was a bang-bang play just like back in....hmmm 2019 I think, we played the Pats and Josh went out with a concussion after Jonathan Jones hit him - Josh was still upright and running, Jones launched into Allen as a runner just as his teammate tackled Josh from behind, so Josh was coming down and Jones shoulder and arm went right into his chin and head.

 

A lot of fans were "dirty play" then too - they were wrong.

Poyer was always an edgy player, especially as he's aged and his athleticism has dropped off somewhat.  We loved his edgy when it was our edgy, but it's the same edgy.

 

44 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

What happened to Trevor Lawrence is unfortunate but it does happen in football.. sliding quarterbacks do get jacked up.. whether you want to say it's dirty or not doesn't matter 

 

You can call it dirty but it does happen

 

I guess I'm not following you here that whether it's dirty or not doesn't matter....if it's not dirty it's an illegal hit, it calls for a penalty but not an ejection or a suspension
 

If it's dirty, it calls for both

 

44 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

What is completely out of the realm of football is taking off your helmet and trying to beat someone with it.. I would consider that more serious than a play on the field

 

The NFL agrees with you since initially Myles Garrett was suspended indefinitely, I think it wound up being 6 games.

 

I will say as far as I can make out from the NFL's letter, part of the ejection appears to be the fight after the hit, in which Al-Shaair threw another player to the ground by his facemask, and then when told he was ejected by the ref, kept right on going to pursue a different opponent.  All that "after the play" extracurricular stuff isn't part of the game either.

Edited 21 hours ago by Beck Water