OT: what did you think of the hit on Lawrence?

[Buffalo716]

18 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Fair.  I didn't read the whole thread before I responded to you.  I won't take it personally if you don't feel moved to respond.

 

 

I wasn't one of them.  He was going for the ball, not Keon's head, on a play where if Keon makes the catch it's over.  'Course, getting penalized meant it was over, but there's always the chance it won't be called.

 

It was a bang-bang play just like back in....hmmm 2019 I think, we played the Pats and Josh went out with a concussion after Jonathan Jones hit him - Josh was still upright and running, Jones launched into Allen as a runner just as his teammate tackled Josh from behind, so Josh was coming down and Jones shoulder and arm went right into his chin and head.

 

A lot of fans were "dirty play" then too - they were wrong.

Poyer was always an edgy player, especially as he's aged and his athleticism has dropped off somewhat.  We loved his edgy when it was our edgy, but it's the same edgy.

 

 

I guess I'm not following you here that whether it's dirty or not doesn't matter....if it's not dirty it's an illegal hit, it calls for a penalty but not an ejection or a suspension
 

If it's dirty, it calls for both

 

 

The NFL agrees with you since initially Myles Garrett was suspended indefinitely, I think it wound up being 6 games.

 

I will say as far as I can make out from the NFL's letter, part of the ejection appears to be the fight after the hit, in which Al-Shaair threw another player to the ground by his facemask, and then when told he was ejected by the ref, kept right on going to pursue a different opponent.  All that "after the play" extracurricular stuff isn't part of the game either.

I guess my point was whether you're a person who thinks the hit is dirty.. or whether you don't think it's dirty... Its moot 

 

The NFL deems it an illegal hit so my opinion is irrelevant 

 

But on that Dalton hit I showed... Bostic was ejected but not suspended and I think that was as bad as the hit the other day 

 

He literally used his helmet as a weapon 

 

The NFL thought it was bad enough for an ejection but not suspension 

 

Maybe because one was first overall Trevor Lawrence.. and the other was getting old and now back up Andy Dalton 

 

And your good beck always like chatting!

Edited December 3 by Buffalo716

[Rocky Landing]

I'm not really familiar with Al-Shaair. Does he have a history of this type of play?

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, wjag said:

I think a QB that breaks the pocket and turns into a runner should be treated like a RB.  Slide or no slide. They should be fair game.  This gives QBs like Hurts, Allen and Mahommes an unfair advantage.  They can decide to slide or not and what's a defender supposed to do?

 

Um, maybe I don't understand you, but if an RB TE or WR decides to "give himself up" it is just as illegal to hit him.  A player "giving himself up" by sliding or taking a knee is not limited to QB, any ball carrier can do it.

 

Rule 7-2-1-d (which covers when the ball becomes dead) says:

when a runner declares himself down by:
(1) falling to the ground or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance; or
(2) sliding. When a runner slides feet or head first or simulates sliding, the ball is dead the instant he touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet, or begins to simulate touching the ground;

There were several controveries around this - I think one was Evan Engram "giving himself up" then the ball coming out, which was ruled "not a fumble"; another involved Mixon tossing the ball to a teammate assuming he was down by contact, KC grabbed the ball and tried to advance it as though it were fumbled (the refs didn't bite)

[dave mcbride]

22 hours ago, Success said:

First, I hated to see Lawrence hurt like that, as I'm sure everyone did, and hope for a full & fast recovery.

 

When the hit 1st happened, my reaction was the same as everyone else.  Dirty. Unnecessary.  I was kind of angry.

 

But then the entire NFL community goes into self-righteous mode about a play in a game that is inherently violent.  We all watch replays countless times in slo-mo, and think that players who are playing the game at a high speed can adjust on a dime. And there is also the consideration that some QB's try to game the rules around sliding a bit, and trick defenses.  That slide yesterday did appear to be one that was started late, after or simultaneous to the defender positioning for the hit.

 

Obviously, the NFL has to protect QB's.  The hit WAS unnecessary - but I think the reaction against the player has been over the top.  If a player has a pattern of illegal hits & dirty play, that's a different story.  

 

I just hate how this stuff gets so black & white, and people turn into villains instantly.

 

He's a villain because he's a JAG defender and both the overall business of NFL and actual teams are built on QBs. Headhunting QBs is really bad for the league and bad for 53-man teams that no longer have a credible QB. I don't think the penalty is enough given the absolute centrality of competent QB play to watchable football. 

Edited December 3 by dave mcbride

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Lawrence slid way too late put the defender in an impossible position. 

 

Nah.  He might not have been able to avoid hitting Lawrence, but he didn't have to slam his forearm brace into Lawrence neck and chin.

[Beck Water]

37 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

I'm not really familiar with Al-Shaair. Does he have a history of this type of play?

 

Yes.  Yes he does.

  
He once grabbed Tom Brady by the throat, AFTER Brady threw a pass.  I don't think that was penalized.  It should have been.

 

He punched another player after the play earlier this season - think it was Bears RB Roschon Johnson - Al-Shaair laid a late hit on Caleb Williams after he was OOB, the Bears players rightly took exception, Shaair punched Johnson.  He was penalized and fined, but not ejected or suspended.

 

Those are two I know about, I think there have been a couple others tho

 

Because of that prior history, Caserio comes across like a complete tool saying he's "embarrassed" by the league's handling of the matter and calls the portrayal of his player "bulls--t."  I mean, Al-Shaair may be kind to puppies, help little old ladies carry their groceries to their cars off the field, and support charities, but he's got a history of crossing the line ON the field.  Caserio has a lot of nerve whinging about "in this situation, quite frankly, there's no consistency at all relative to the level of discipline that's been handed down.".

 

He doesn't like it that other players have been ejected but not suspended.  But do they have the same history?  Al-Shaair caught a break in the Bears game.  Break-time is over. 

 

Caserio complains that Kareem Jackson was treated with leniency, but he was suspended for 4 games - twice (he appealed the first suspension and it was reduced, then he came back and was promptly suspended again).

Anyway.

 

 

Edited December 3 by Beck Water

[boyst]

Still a designed run call where he wasn't a QB but a runner. Still a penalty because it was helmet to helmet. 

 

You don't want QBs end up like this? Don't let them run the ball.

[Beck Water]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

3 games-  just or unjust?

 

I think he should have gotten 4, but I think the NFL does have some kind of guidelines so maybe?  Kareem Jackson got 4 for a repeated violation, after a hit on Joshua Dobbs he wasn't even flagged for (should have been UR IMO)

 

15 minutes ago, boyst said:

Still a designed run call where he wasn't a QB but a runner. Still a penalty because it was helmet to helmet. 

 

You don't want QBs end up like this? Don't let them run the ball.

 

Dude, runner or not, once a ball carrier "gives themselves up", they are down, and you're not supposed to hit them.  You played, you know that.

That's any ball carrier, not just a QB, but we all know that practically speaking, the NFL is trying to protect QBs these days so "extra spice" if you hit a QB who has "given themselves up".

 

The Rules are the Rules, and the Facts are the Facts, and when the Cheese Drawer Opens, Ya Gotta Pay the Tax

Edited December 3 by Beck Water

[Buffalo716]

14 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think he should have gotten 4, but I think the NFL does have some kind of guidelines so maybe?  Kareem Jackson got 4 for a repeated violation, after a hit on Joshua Dobbs he wasn't even flagged for (should have been UR IMO)

 

 

Dude, runner or not, once a ball carrier "gives themselves up", they are down, and you're not supposed to hit them.  You played, you know that.

That's any ball carrier, not just a QB, but we all know that practically speaking, the NFL is trying to protect QBs these days so "extra spice" if you hit a QB who has "given themselves up".

 

The Rules are the Rules, and the Facts are the Facts, and when the Cheese Drawer Opens, Ya Gotta Pay the Tax

Yes you are correct all players can give themselves up

[boyst]

18 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think he should have gotten 4, but I think the NFL does have some kind of guidelines so maybe?  Kareem Jackson got 4 for a repeated violation, after a hit on Joshua Dobbs he wasn't even flagged for (should have been UR IMO)

 

 

Dude, runner or not, once a ball carrier "gives themselves up", they are down, and you're not supposed to hit them.  You played, you know that.

That's any ball carrier, not just a QB, but we all know that practically speaking, the NFL is trying to protect QBs these days so "extra spice" if you hit a QB who has "given themselves up".

 

The Rules are the Rules, and the Facts are the Facts, and when the Cheese Drawer Opens, Ya Gotta Pay the Tax

Yes it was a helmet to helmet, no debate. But after all these stunts quarterbacks have been pulling with fake slides, big duck out of bounds, etc. it is no surprise he got popped.

[Don Otreply]

It was a purposeful cheap shot, 

[Livinginthepast]

Awful dirty hit and not the first time this guy has done this. Revenge seems to be more of a thing in hockey but I will be interested to see next year what happens when these teams face each other. Al Shaair should watch his back.

Edited December 4 by Livinginthepast

[Beck Water]

Just found this video of Tom Brady discussing the hit with Colin Cowherd.

 

It's Tom Brady, so, his POV is worth listening to (especially since he's the one Al-Shaair grabbed by the throat)

https://youtu.be/NOU6-IEMeDw?t=31

 

I will say that his POV kind of surprised me a bit, but then, he did spend many years playing before some of the new rules came into being.

Edited December 5 by Beck Water

[NoSaint]

On 12/3/2024 at 4:21 PM, Buffalo716 said:

I guess my point was whether you're a person who thinks the hit is dirty.. or whether you don't think it's dirty... Its moot 

 

The NFL deems it an illegal hit so my opinion is irrelevant 

 

But on that Dalton hit I showed... Bostic was ejected but not suspended and I think that was as bad as the hit the other day 

 

He literally used his helmet as a weapon 

 

The NFL thought it was bad enough for an ejection but not suspension 

 

Maybe because one was first overall Trevor Lawrence.. and the other was getting old and now back up Andy Dalton 

 

And your good beck always like chatting!

could also be the past history, the ensuing fight and the follow up fighting after he was ejected all contributing too

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Just found this video of Tom Brady discussing the hit with Colin Cowherd.

 

It's Tom Brady, so, his POV is worth listening to (especially since he's the one Al-Shaair grabbed by the throat)

https://youtu.be/NOU6-IEMeDw?t=31

 

 Can't slide late 

 

Ofc tom knows the game is too fast... And defense is aggressive 

 

Edited December 5 by Buffalo716

[NoSaint]

6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Just found this video of Tom Brady discussing the hit with Colin Cowherd.

 

It's Tom Brady, so, his POV is worth listening to (especially since he's the one Al-Shaair grabbed by the throat)

https://youtu.be/NOU6-IEMeDw?t=31

 

I will say that his POV kind of surprised me a bit, but then, he did spend many years playing before some of the new rules came into being.

I think there is a balance and I do buy arguments that it’s a tough spot for a defender when you ask them to hit a qb at the belt buckle and then tell the qb to slide so his head is in the center of that zone 

 

I’m really struggling to see this issue here though. 
 

it was a solid 5 yard gap and the defender was not traveling head on at full speed. 15 feet is across the room you are sitting in reading this - two guys full speed head to head, maybe on the edge. Not the case here.

Additionally he used his braced arm to hit him in the face - not a natural movement for a defender if tackling an upright player or if avoiding the sliding player. It was textbook inflicting pain on the guys head.

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

I think there is a balance and I do buy arguments that it’s a tough spot for a defender when you ask them to hit a qb at the belt buckle and then tell the qb to slide so his head is in the center of that zone 

 

I’m really struggling to see this issue here though. 
 

it was a solid 5 yard gap and the defender was not traveling head on at full speed. 15 feet is across the room you are sitting in reading this - two guys full speed head to head, maybe on the edge. Not the case here.

Additionally he used his braced arm to hit him in the face - not a natural movement for a defender if tackling an upright player or if avoiding the sliding player. It was textbook inflicting pain on the guys head.

Very normal behavior by a guy who definitely didn’t mean to hurt another player.

 

 

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

I think there is a balance and I do buy arguments that it’s a tough spot for a defender when you ask them to hit a qb at the belt buckle and then tell the qb to slide so his head is in the center of that zone 

 

I’m really struggling to see this issue here though. 
 

it was a solid 5 yard gap and the defender was not traveling head on at full speed. 15 feet is across the room you are sitting in reading this - two guys full speed head to head, maybe on the edge. Not the case here.

Additionally he used his braced arm to hit him in the face - not a natural movement for a defender if tackling an upright player or if avoiding the sliding player. It was textbook inflicting pain on the guys head.

 

I agree with you, which is why I was surprised at Tom Brady's POV on this.

 

You're absolutely right that Al-Shaair went braced arm to the neck/helmet, and I don't at all see how that was unavoidable to him.
 

By the way, Trevor Lawrence still looks like a horse.

Edited December 5 by Beck Water

[QLBillsFan]

On 12/3/2024 at 2:56 PM, boyst said:

Still a designed run call where he wasn't a QB but a runner. Still a penalty because it was helmet to helmet. 

 

You don't want QBs end up like this? Don't let them run the ball.

The issue was this guy has had multiple and recent late hits. Bears (followed by punch), Titans sideline plays on RB’s. Extremely late.. in addition to the choke on Brady. Then this on TL with a clear forearm. IMHO this one was the least egregious of the three. But it was cheap and looks like he could have adjusted. As far as QB’s sliding the only thing that can be done is to flag fake slides. But that brings more objective reffing which I think will be problematic. And we can all see KC getting no flag but let’s say the Raiders get it. It is a very challenging situation for D players. But I think for the most part they adjust and make the no hit. This guy, his coach, and the GM are becoming an embarrassment with the victim spin. The Texans have become a bit over the top on and off the field. And they have lost credibility. 

[Gunvald's Husse]

On 12/4/2024 at 12:15 AM, boyst said:

Yes it was a helmet to helmet, no debate

Except it absolutely wasn't helmet ot helmet. It was forearm (with brace) to the helmet, a forearm that he deliberately raises and leads with. As others have said, he has time to at least mitigate the hit but, instead, he changes his angle of attack, raises the forearm and dives in. He knew exactly what he was doing.