OT: what did you think of the hit on Lawrence?

[GunnerBill]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:22 AM, Buffalo716 said:

Again.. football is still my job 

 

I defend players and coaches for the most part.. it's a fraternity 

 

I don't know the guy and I don't know his football history enough to judge him... If somebody could pull up weeks and weeks of tape of him being dirty I have no problem admitting it 

 

But in a fast game where stuff does happen like this unfortunately... I don't like to think that people a part of this fraternity would just want to hurt people ... Yes Conrad doublers exist

 

I don't think there's more than probably a couple of them in the league

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I get that. But you are still conflating pre-meditation with intention. They are not the same. 

[GoBills808]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:26 AM, Buffalo716 said:

I said for the most part 

 

There's obviously some psychopaths... But it is a fraternity 

 

These guys hang out with each other in the off seasons and their families hang out.. it's a very small fraternity of NFL players 

 

It would be an extremely extremely extremely small minority who go out with intent to injure... Colleges will kick a kid off of a program if he continually is dirty 

 

Football is violent but that doesn't mean there's not an insane amount of respect between coaches and players 

 

Greg Williams and bounty gate is the minority... And he's sick

 

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Dude of course they're the minority because they were idiots about it and got caught

 

That doesn't mean that injured players on the opposing team don't get highlighted in lead up and get tested during games...it's not like 'oh we are going to blow his knee up' but if you're carrying an injury someone is going to go after it and what happens happens

 

I mean you can see it every week in the nfl

[Savage]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:15 AM, Cray51 said:

To me, there are three levels to look at the play.

 

1) Did he come into the game with a "plan" to injure Lawrence.  I think it's farfetched

2) Did he see Lawrence coming in a one on one situation and launch at a low angle with intent to lay the lumber on the QB - I think this is the most likely situation

3) Did he react to a late slide from Lawrence and even with taking the necessary precaution to hit legally unfortunately made contact - I dont think he did

 

It may not have been a "planned exercise", but it's telling when the LB did all of the wrong things in the moment.  He changed angle of his trajectory, led with the forearm, and even if the time to react was minimal, he simply didn't make any adjustment to Lawrence.

 

At the point of Lawrence initiating a slide, he was 3.5/4 yards from the LB.  The LB's feet are planted flat and squared to Lawrence.  In reaction to Lawrence's slide, he lowers forearm first and lunges forward.  If he expects Trevor to run through contact, he is targeting the knees.  If he is expecting a slide, he is targeting the head.  Both relatively scummy to be honest.

 

At the end of the day, his apology wasn't really an apology.  It was a reaction to the negative publicity.  To your point, if this play happens in the 80s, its a hard hit and the world moves on - which also means he isn't apologizing at all.  So when we see him apologizing (even though it seemed thin at best), it's indication that he made a bad play.  Hence the game of football as moved past the 80s and into the current way we play now.  The form of the game where the defense isn't allowed to launch at the hed of a QB after they have given themselves up.  And he simply didn't do that.

 

I think it was an incredibly dirty play - I'd suspend him 1-2 games (Houston is on a bye this week, I'd probably give him a game so he is out week 15).  

 

It's a play I dont want to see happen to more QBs, this is your chance to set the standard and help reduce the chances of it happening again.

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It’s become a thing for QBs to pretend to slide, or run out of bounds, and not do so.

 

it can’t be expected of defensive players to assume a QB will slide, pretend to slide, run out of bounds, or to pretend to run out of bounds.

 

Something has to give, or QBs will continue to take big shots like that.

 

not sure what the solution is.

 

can see in 10-15 years where the QB can’t be touched, and can’t leave the pocket type of thing.

 

 

[Buffalo716]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:27 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

I get that. But you are still conflating pre-meditation with intention. They are not the same. 

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I'll accept that

 

People are acting like I'm sitting here cheering the big hit..  I'm not 

 

I just didn't go right to the word dirty 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

I am guessing that most people who think this is undeniably dirty or unquestionably intentional have not played football or have not done so in a long, long time. 

[GoBills808]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:37 AM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I am guessing that most people who think this is undeniably dirty or unquestionably intentional have not played football or have not done so in a long, long time. 

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You'd be wrong lol

[FireChans]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:36 AM, Savage said:

It’s become a thing for QBs to pretend to slide, or run out of bounds, and not do so.

 

it can’t be expected of defensive players to assume a QB will slide, pretend to slide, run out of bounds, or to pretend to run out of bounds.

 

Something has to give, or QBs will continue to take big shots like that.

 

not sure what the solution is.

 

can see in 10-15 years where the QB can’t be touched, and can’t leave the pocket type of thing.

 

 

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I have a serious question.

 

When was the last big hit on a sliding QB that warranted a discussion about suspension? Can you remember one this year? Last year?

 

I can’t.

 

Why are we acting like dirty hits of this degree happen all the time? 

[GunnerBill]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:40 AM, FireChans said:

I have a serious question.

 

When was the last big hit on a sliding QB that warranted a discussion about suspension? Can you remember one this year? Last year?

 

I can’t.

 

Why are we acting like dirty hits of this degree happen all the time? 

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100%. We see QBs take hits sliding every week. This isn't a debate every week because most of those are cases where the defender clearly has no intent to injure or where at worst that is unclear. 

 

This is an exception. This is not like every other case we see most weeks.

[Savage]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:40 AM, FireChans said:

I have a serious question.

 

When was the last big hit on a sliding QB that warranted a discussion about suspension? Can you remember one this year? Last year?

 

I can’t.

 

Why are we acting like dirty hits of this degree happen all the time? 

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There are always questionable hits, this one stood out because of the viciousness of it.

 

don’t get me wrong, it was disgusting, but just because of the obviousness.

 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:38 AM, GoBills808 said:

You'd be wrong lol

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Ehh I think a lot of people see this as a black or white, “is or isn’t” issue. There is a ton of gray area here. The passion and shear velocity of these massive dudes is really easy to underestimate

Edited December 3, 2024 by EmotionallyUnstable

[FireChans]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:44 AM, Savage said:

There are always questionable hits, this one stood out because of the viciousness of it.

 

don’t get me wrong, it was disgusting, but just because of the obviousness.

 

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So what is the difference between this and every unnecessary roughness penalty in the last 3 years?

 

I’ll tell you. Because this one was clearly, and obviously, dirty with the intent to injure. Which is why is virtually zero folks are saying “what is the defender supposed to do.” Or “the QB sold that call.” Or any of the million other things that we see on routine calls EVERY WEEK. 

We are debating suspension, today, because it was clearly and obviously dirty. Point blank. Period.

[GoBills808]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:44 AM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Ehh I think a lot of people see this as a black or white, “is or isn’t” issue. There is a ton of gray area here. The passion shear velocity of these massive dudes is really easy to underestimate

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These are some of the best athletes in the world, the idea that they're just flying out of control out there unable to pull out of a routine sliding QB is the non football take tbh

 

Look we all know what happened...divisional rivals, QB known to be injured coming in, all week in prep the defense knows it/heard about it, and he saw an opportunity to put in a really questionable shot. It was a bad play in context and doesn't need to be defended lol

[Buffalo716]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:44 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

100%. We see QBs take hits sliding every week. This isn't a debate every week because most of those are cases where the defender clearly has no intent to injure or where at worst that is unclear. 

 

This is an exception. This is not like every other case we see most weeks.

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There have definitely been a decent amount of QBs knocked out from sliding the last 5-10 years in college and the pros 

 

It doesn't happen every week 

 

It all started with Trent greene 15 20 years ago

 

@FireChans I don't know what your eye rolling because I was basically agreeing it doesn't happen every week 

 

But in the last decade there are a good amount of circumstances.. more than just two or three

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:52 AM, Buffalo716 said:

There have definitely been a decent amount of QBs knocked out from sliding the last 5-10 years in college and the pros 

 

It doesn't happen every week 

 

It all started with Trent greene

 

 

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No but them getting hit sliding to a flag being thrown that happens most weeks.

[Buffalo716]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:53 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

No but them getting hit sliding to a flag being thrown that happens most weeks.

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Yes , absolutely 

 

Quarterbacks have the right to protection on the field , I never said they shouldn't 

 

It was a cut and dry penalty 

[TBBills Fan]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:27 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

I get that. But you are still conflating pre-meditation with intention. They are not the same. 

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I think it's the hill he wants to die on

 

That's why I gave up

[FireChans]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:52 AM, Buffalo716 said:

There have definitely been a decent amount of QBs knocked out from sliding the last 5-10 years in college and the pros 

 

It doesn't happen every week 

 

It all started with Trent greene 15 20 years ago

 

@FireChans I don't know what your eye rolling because I was basically agreeing it doesn't happen every week 

 

But in the last decade there are a good amount of circumstances.. more than just two or three

 

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Because you missed the point again in defense of the “fraternity.”

[Buffalo716]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:56 AM, TBBills Fan said:

I think it's the hill he wants to die on

 

That's why I gave up

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Unlike most people here I actually listen to other people and I have no problem with other people's opinions 

 

I don't attack people just for their opinions like people like to try to gang up on me 

 

Maybe if you didn't cherry pick you know I actually agreed.. I just didn't go right to the word dirty because this has happened for a hundred years unfortunately I'm football... I did agree with him saying I confused premeditation and intention

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:58 AM, FireChans said:

Because you missed the point again in defense of the “fraternity.”

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What do you want me to say 

 

I literally said it was unnecessary, I said it was a penalty .. I said I do not think it's good for the game 

 

I just did not go right to the word dirty.. there's a lot of other words you could use.. like unnecessary 

 

If you guys want to gang up on me cuz I just don't say dirty lmao unfortunately this does happen in football it's not the first or the last time

Edited December 3, 2024 by Buffalo716

[TBBills Fan]

  On 12/3/2024 at 2:59 AM, Buffalo716 said:

Unlike most people here I actually listen to other people and I have no problem with other people's opinions 

 

I don't attack people just for their opinions like people like to try to gang up on me 

 

Maybe if you didn't cherry pick what you were eating you know I actually agreed.. I just didn't go right to the word dirty because this has happened for a hundred years

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What the hell are you talking about about?

 

This feels a lot like conversations with ex wife #2 and ex wife #4. 

 

Do your thing. It's your hill

[Buffalo ill]

They can fix this by getting rid of the slide rule.