OT: what did you think of the hit on Lawrence?

[QCity]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yeah but intent is a lot tougher to judge when there's 22 guys flying around 

 

There's not 22 guys flying around. There are 2 guys. TWO. One is a QB who is sliding.

 

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

I don't think that player woke up with any intent to try to derail Trevor Lawrence's career.. he made a bang bang play where he did not try and protect Trevor Lawrence in the heat 

 

Of course he didn't wake up that morning with intent to end Lawrence's career. Nobody is arguing this.

 

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

As I said if Lawrence slides two yards earlier I don't think he's hitting him 

 

Nobody is arguing this either.

 

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

The bang bang of the play allowed this illegal hit... If the slide happened the yards earlier I don't think he's coming in to take off his head.. because Trevor was trying to get every foot 

 

Same thing repeated, nobody is arguing this. 

 

 

The man clearly raised his forearm at the last second with intent to hit him in the head after he slid.

 

That's it.

 

I'm starting to think you didn't even see the hit and just want to play the role of internet contrarian because you like arguing.

[Saint Doug]

Dirty hit by a dirty player. He saw him going down and purposely lowered by angle and put his forearm out. Could’ve jumped over him. Guy should get at least 6 games. Probably more. Can’t see why the NFLPA would argue against player safety. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

I think it just boils down to... Do you really think before the game started he said I will do whatever it takes to take out Lawrence...

 

 

It doesn't boil down to that. It boils down to the moment he starting adjusting his attack angle to Lawrence does he think "I'm gonna hurt him here" and he absolutely does. Or else why adjust your angle, lead with the forearm and launch at the contact point? 

[Buffalo716]

Just now, QCity said:

 

There's not 22 guys flying around. There are 2 guys. TWO. One is a QB who is sliding.

 

 

Of course he didn't wake up that morning with intent to end Lawrence's career. Nobody is arguing this.

 

 

Nobody is arguing this either.

 

 

Same thing repeated, nobody is arguing this. 

 

 

The man clearly raised his forearm at the last second with intent to hit him in the head after he slid.

 

That's it.

 

I'm starting to think you didn't even see the hit and just want to play the role of internet contrarian because you like arguing.

I've seen the hit... It's all so not as cut and dry as everybody is making it seem 

 

It was a very very fast play and yeah he did lead with his forearm

[FireChans]

Someone tell Trevor to shake it off and get out of the hospital. Doesn't he know that Jim McMahon got body slammed 1000 years ago? 

 

Teddy Roosevelt finished a speech with a gunshot wound. Why is Trevor still complaining about his hurt noggin?

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It doesn't boil down to that. It boils down to the moment he starting adjusting his attack angle to Lawrence does he think "I'm gonna hurt him here" and he absolutely does. Or else why adjust your angle, lead with the forearm and launch at the contact point? 

There are plenty of football players who have taken piss poor angles .. lead with their helmets etc over the years 

 

The play is happening a lot faster than what people are making it seem.. sure did he lead with a forearm yes 

 

In a game of milliseconds I don't think he's thinking I'm going to throw up my forearm and take his head off.. I just think it happened .. I've hit plenty of people with my helmet over the years in a bang bang play and I never thought I'm going to lead with my helmet... It just happens occasionally

 

I think he did it without thinking... It happened I don't think he planned it

 

The difference is dirty players go out with the intent to be dirty all the time.. I don't know this guy good enough and I don't watch his film to know what type of guy he is 

 

But the speed of the game is immense and at the end of the day you're talking about raising his forearm in a millisecond decision... If he was clocking dudes heads all day I can see intent 

 

But he literally had milliseconds 

 

Not 3 seconds

 

Edited December 3 by Buffalo716

[Rochesterfan]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm sorry if that us your bar for intent you are misunderstanding the word. You do not need the level of pre-determination that you are talking about to have intent. 

 

He doesn't need to have intended to hurt Lawrence before the game for that hit to be intentional. That is an entirely spurious argument. 

 

 

Yep. I am watching the exact same thing you are. Not sure what anyone arguing otherwise is watching. The decision to change angle, the decision to raise and lead with the forearm and the decision to launch towards the QB are all intentional decisions. Decisions he made with the intention to hurt Lawrence.

 

I have seen those slides that are very late and the defender is already sprinting forward and I would understand that getting argued as part of football and would totally not call it dirty, but this was not that situation.

 

The defender is literally square and in place when the slide starts.  He is not running, he is not coming forward, he is square and looking right at the QB 4 yards away.

 

After the QB starts to slide - the defensive player decides to launch himself at the QB.  
 

Ejection was the right call and suspension would and should be on the table.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

There are plenty of football players who have taken piss poor angles .. lead with their helmets etc over the years 

 

The play is happening a lot faster than what people are making it seem.. sure did he lead with a forearm yes 

 

In a game of milliseconds I don't think he's thinking I'm going to throw up my forearm and take his head off.. I just think it happened 

 

I think he just did it without thinking

 

But he wasn't taking a piss poor angle. As @Rochesterfan has said. He had a perfectly reasonable angle to enable him to make a play. He adjusts his angle so that he can ensure the hit is more vicious.

 

You are giving way too much benefit of the doubt because you don't want to think a player would behave that way. But he absolutely did. He intended to hurt Trevor Lawrence. He should (and I think will) face the full force of NFL discipline.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But he wasn't taking a piss poor angle. As @Rochesterfan has said. He had a perfectly reasonable angle to enable him to make a play. He adjusts his angle so that he can ensure the hit is more vicious.

 

You are giving way too much benefit of the doubt because you don't want to think a player would behave that way. But he absolutely did. He intended to hurt Trevor Lawrence. He should (and I think will) face the full force of NFL discipline.

Perhaps I am 

 

But my point is that quarterbacks sliding do unfortunately get taken out.. this isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last 

 

He's not the first or last player to do that... And we're talking about husbands and fathers 

 

Most football players do not want to injure anybody

[FireChans]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

But he wasn't taking a piss poor angle. As @Rochesterfan has said. He had a perfectly reasonable angle to enable him to make a play. He adjusts his angle so that he can ensure the hit is more vicious.

 

You are giving way too much benefit of the doubt because you don't want to think a player would behave that way. But he absolutely did. He intended to hurt Trevor Lawrence. He should (and I think will) face the full force of NFL discipline.

There are also virtually zero former players/NFL media member defending this particular play.

 

Not a hypothetical bang bang play where a player has no good answers. This play.

 

@Buffalo716 says that's not true. I'd like to see where he sees any defense of this play, not by football people who work for the same organization.

[Cray51]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Lots of NFL players don't wrap up now and shoulder tackle 

 

Just hit someone as hard as they can with their chest or forearm or shoulder 

 

I agree 100% forearms are dangerous and that is why you can't use your forearm on a defenseless player... That's why he was flagged 

 

I think it just boils down to... Do you really think before the game started he said I will do whatever it takes to take out Lawrence...

 

If you believe yes then that is intent and it would be very dirty... Or it happened on a fast football field and he just did not protect Trevor Lawrence to his best ability 

 

I'll tell you what if somebody did that on purpose I don't think he would apologize

To me, there are three levels to look at the play.

 

1) Did he come into the game with a "plan" to injure Lawrence.  I think it's farfetched

2) Did he see Lawrence coming in a one on one situation and launch at a low angle with intent to lay the lumber on the QB - I think this is the most likely situation

3) Did he react to a late slide from Lawrence and even with taking the necessary precaution to hit legally unfortunately made contact - I dont think he did

 

It may not have been a "planned exercise", but it's telling when the LB did all of the wrong things in the moment.  He changed angle of his trajectory, led with the forearm, and even if the time to react was minimal, he simply didn't make any adjustment to Lawrence.

 

At the point of Lawrence initiating a slide, he was 3.5/4 yards from the LB.  The LB's feet are planted flat and squared to Lawrence.  In reaction to Lawrence's slide, he lowers forearm first and lunges forward.  If he expects Trevor to run through contact, he is targeting the knees.  If he is expecting a slide, he is targeting the head.  Both relatively scummy to be honest.

 

At the end of the day, his apology wasn't really an apology.  It was a reaction to the negative publicity.  To your point, if this play happens in the 80s, its a hard hit and the world moves on - which also means he isn't apologizing at all.  So when we see him apologizing (even though it seemed thin at best), it's indication that he made a bad play.  Hence the game of football as moved past the 80s and into the current way we play now.  The form of the game where the defense isn't allowed to launch at the hed of a QB after they have given themselves up.  And he simply didn't do that.

 

I think it was an incredibly dirty play - I'd suspend him 1-2 games (Houston is on a bye this week, I'd probably give him a game so he is out week 15).  

 

It's a play I dont want to see happen to more QBs, this is your chance to set the standard and help reduce the chances of it happening again.

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

There are also virtually zero former players/NFL media member defending this particular play.

 

Not a hypothetical bang bang play where a player has no good answers. This play.

 

@Buffalo716 says that's not true. I'd like to see where he sees any defense of this play, not by football people who work for the same organization.

The media is not defending it 

 

There are plenty of coaches who will never give an opinion because it doesn't mean anything to them

 

There are dozens of NFL coaches you'll never hear from on this.. dozens of assistant coaches.. hundreds of division 1 coaches

 

They'll keep it to themselves

 

Nobody is parading around saying great hit for football.. I have given multiple examples of extremely dirty plays in football 

 

To show that there are levels to dirty.. and this is basically at the bottom rung

 

It's not taking off a helmet and trying to beat someone with it... It's not going behind a player picking him up and slamming him on his head after the whistle 

 

It was within the whistle and an illegal play according to the rules... That does not mean it's the dirtiest thing I've ever seen

 

And I don't think the guy went into the game trying to kill Trevor Lawrence

 

 

Edited December 3 by Buffalo716

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

At a minimum, just a totally reckless play. Should get suspended for recklessness regardless of intent. 

 

Also, they ought to settle this like hockey players do. Let the jags send their enforcer out to pummel him for a few minutes, and then everyone moves on.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Perhaps I am 

 

But my point is that quarterbacks sliding do unfortunately get taken out.. this isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last 

 

He's not the first or last player to do that... And we're talking about husbands and fathers 

 

Most football players do not want to injure anybody

 

Of course. But this isn't just another example of where that happened. This is not one from the bottle. It is an outlier. 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

The media is not defending it 

 

There are plenty of coaches who will never give an opinion because it doesn't mean anything to them

 

There are dozens of NFL coaches you'll never hear from on this.. dozens of assistant coaches.. hundreds of division 1 coaches

 

They'll keep it to themselves because this happens in football...

 

Nobody is parading around saying great hit for football.. I have given multiple examples of extremely dirty plays in football 

 

To show that this is not on that level

 

 

Man come on lol.

 

First of all, giving Jim McMahon example 100 times doesn't count as multiple examples.

 

Second of all, there are PAGES of former NFL players who are criticizing this hit. There's ZERO defending it. But they are all just keeping it to themselves?

 

Consider this, why is suspension on the board for this hit, and not for other late hits on QB's sliding that happens virtually every week.

 

Spoilers: It's because this one was dirty as hell.

 

Your defense of "these guys have families and don't want to hurt a fly" would apply to monsters like Rae Carruth. Its insane.

[LEBills]

 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Most football players do not want to injure anybody

Could use context tbh

 

most NFL players don't care if they injure somebody or not. They're trying to win by any means necessary

 

There's a reason guys w injuries get tested in games

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Of course. But this isn't just another example of where that happened. This is not one from the bottle. It is an outlier. 

Again.. football is still my job 

 

I defend players and coaches for the most part.. it's a fraternity 

 

I don't know the guy and I don't know his football history enough to judge him... If somebody could pull up weeks and weeks of tape of him being dirty I have no problem admitting it 

 

But in a fast game where stuff does happen like this unfortunately... I don't like to think that people a part of this fraternity would just want to hurt people ... Yes Conrad doublers exist

 

I don't think there's more than probably a couple of them in the league

[Savage]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It doesn't boil down to that. It boils down to the moment he starting adjusting his attack angle to Lawrence does he think "I'm gonna hurt him here" and he absolutely does. Or else why adjust your angle, lead with the forearm and launch at the contact point? 

There is a VERY fine line when it comes to hitting someone.

 

You want to hurt them, not injure them.

 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Man come on lol.

 

First of all, giving Jim McMahon example 100 times doesn't count as multiple examples.

 

Second of all, there are PAGES of former NFL players who are criticizing this hit. There's ZERO defending it. But they are all just keeping it to themselves?

 

Consider this, why is suspension on the board for this hit, and not for other late hits on QB's sliding that happens virtually every week.

 

Spoilers: It's because this one was dirty as hell.

 

Your defense of "these guys have families and don't want to hurt a fly" would apply to monsters like Rae Carruth. Its insane.

I said for the most part 

 

There's obviously some psychopaths... But it is a fraternity 

 

These guys hang out with each other in the off seasons and their families hang out.. it's a very small fraternity of NFL players 

 

It would be an extremely extremely extremely small minority who go out with intent to injure... Colleges will kick a kid off of a program if he continually is dirty 

 

Football is violent but that doesn't mean there's not an insane amount of respect between coaches and players 

 

Greg Williams and bounty gate is the minority... And he's sick

 

Edited December 3 by Buffalo716