OT: what did you think of the hit on Lawrence?

[Success]

1 minute ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

That hit was at minimum trying to send a message, at worst trying to injured. The message the guy sent is that he can't be trusted and CJ Stroud must be thinking that if he does it again the other defense might come for him

 

Sending a message w/ a hit is an every-game occurrence.   Multiple times in most games.  If players have a chance to tee up a hit, they usually take it - though most do it "cleanly."  And fans generally love it when a player lays a really strong hit against an opponent.  "As long as no one gets hurt." 

 

I just find a lot of hypocrisy on this issue.

 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

And the other there are a thousand instances of quarterbacks sliding and getting hit ...

 

There are. And almost none of them are dirty. In fact I struggle to think of another that genuinely when I looked at a replay I thought "he has meant that". But this one, he meant it. Not a doubt in my mind.

2 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

But to me al-shaair once he sees Lawrence is going to the ground nearly stops to readjust his attack angle so he can lay the wood on him while he slides.  That should never ever happen.  If he can adjust his hit like that he could easily avoid elbow dropping the qb in the head lol

 

 

Yep. He adjusts his angle, raises his forearm and launches. If he'd done one of the three, sure I'm at "that's just football man". When a player does all 3? Yea. He meant that. 

[Buffalo716]

Put it this way 

 

At the end of the day no coach is having the back of a player that doesn't have the respect in the locker room... No coach is backing a player who goes out of his way to harm other people... That doesn't have a place in football and coaches typically preach family

 

Anybody who thinks people celebrate an injury like that on the football field are wrong... 99% of players and coaches never want to see that but it happens... Players are a fraternity

 

He's not putting his ass on the line for a dirty player... He would throw him under the bus and say there's no excuse and I don't condone that

 

The coaches reaction is all you need to know that this is unfortunately something that happens in football... Never said the guy did not crack Trevor Lawrence in the face ... He did 

 

But that also got invited because of a super late slide... If he slid yards earlier this doesn't happen.. a fast game and late sliding invited this huge illegal hit 

 

If he got down a yard and a half before that he does not get his head taken off I believe that 

 

An illegal hit happened on a play ... Does that mean this guy is targeting every single quarterback? I think there would be a lot of film to show he does 

 

I think the league would have plenty of evidence to suspend him if he is consistently targeting quarterbacks

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Have also taken to account the player.
I’m almost positive earlier in the year, maybe week two or three same player during a dead ball period Punched another player in the head with his fist.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

Put it this way 

 

At the end of the day no coach is having the back of a player that doesn't have the respect in the locker room... No coach is backing a player who goes out of his way to harm other people... That doesn't have a place in football and coaches typically preach family

 

Anybody who thinks people celebrate an injury like that on the football field are wrong... 99% of players and coaches never want to see that but it happens... Players are a fraternity

 

He's not putting his ass on the line for a dirty player... He would throw him under the bus and say there's no excuse and I don't condone that

 

The coaches reaction is all you need to know that this is unfortunately something that happens in football... Never said the guy did not crack Trevor Lawrence in the face ... He did 

 

But that also got invited because of a super late slide... If he slid yards earlier this doesn't happen.. a fast game and late sliding invited this huge illegal hit 

 

If he got down a yard and a half before that he does not get his head taken off I believe that 

 

An illegal hit happened on a play ... Does that mean this guy is targeting every single quarterback? I think there would be a lot of film to show he does 

 

I think the league would have plenty of evidence to suspend him if he is consistently targeting quarterbacks

 

 

His coach said that hit is "not what we coach". He looked and sounded frankly embarrassed by it. It is as close as I think a coach go to accepting that his guy made a dirty hit. 

 

Nobody is arguing he is targetting every single Quarterback by the way. That is not the bar for determining intent.

[Bruffalo]

He's a dirty player with a reputation for bad hits and poor decision making.

 

We don't need to make it more complicated than it is. He clearly had enough time to not lay him out, he chose to give him a concussion.

 

He knew what he was doing. It's pretty absurd to argue otherwise.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Put it this way 

 

At the end of the day no coach is having the back of a player that doesn't have the respect in the locker room... No coach is backing a player who goes out of his way to harm other people... That doesn't have a place in football and coaches typically preach family

 

Anybody who thinks people celebrate an injury like that on the football field are wrong... 99% of players and coaches never want to see that but it happens... Players are a fraternity

 

He's not putting his ass on the line for a dirty player... He would throw him under the bus and say there's no excuse and I don't condone that

 

The coaches reaction is all you need to know that this is unfortunately something that happens in football... Never said the guy did not crack Trevor Lawrence in the face ... He did 

 

But that also got invited because of a super late slide... If he slid yards earlier this doesn't happen.. a fast game and late sliding invited this huge illegal hit 

 

If he got down a yard and a half before that he does not get his head taken off I believe that 

 

An illegal hit happened on a play ... Does that mean this guy is targeting every single quarterback? I think there would be a lot of film to show he does 

 

I think the league would have plenty of evidence to suspend him if he is consistently targeting quarterbacks

 

He’s 100% getting suspended lol if that’s your basis for when a player is dirty then you’re arguing the wrong side 😂. I believe he also choked out Tom Brady and punched a bears player that wasn’t even in the game haha the guy has had previous issues 

 

Obviously you’re entitled to your own opinion I’m not trying to change your mind here, but I think a lot of players,coaches and fans lost a ton of respect for Demeco Ryans today and I was just trying to show the other side of it.  

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

His coach said that hit is "not what we coach". He looked and sounded frankly embarrassed by it. It is as close as I think a coach go to accepting that his guy made a dirty hit. 

 

Nobody is arguing he is targetting every single Quarterback by the way. That is not the bar for determining intent.

Some of what he said was good but he really should’ve cut the ‘the jaguars overreacted to it’ bit 🤣. Don’t think demeco made too many friends today 

 

id honestly be a little bit worried about Stroud now if I was them 

Edited December 3 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Bockeye]

5 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

He's a dirty player with a reputation for bad hits and poor decision making.

 

We don't need to make it more complicated than it is. He clearly had enough time to not lay him out, he chose to give him a concussion.

 

He knew what he was doing. It's pretty absurd to argue otherwise.

 

[Bruffalo]

1 minute ago, Bockeye said:

 

Case and point right here. Great video illustrating a distinct pattern of bad decision making.

 

Not every hit to a sliding QB is intentional. This one was.

[FireChans]

ITT:

 

It’s impossible to judge intent on the football field. He also definitely didn’t intend to injure him.

 

Ironclad case. Open and shut.

7 minutes ago, Bockeye said:

 

Can we really judge if that punch was INTENDED to injure? 
 

Who can really say?

[DapperCam]

I think he meant to hit him, but maybe got him a little bit harder than intended. He’s a dirty player.

[Buffalo716]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

His coach said that hit is "not what we coach". He looked and sounded frankly embarrassed by it. It is as close as I think a coach go to accepting that his guy made a dirty hit. 

 

Nobody is arguing he is targetting every single Quarterback by the way. That is not the bar for determining intent.

Yeah but intent is a lot tougher to judge when there's 22 guys flying around 

 

If I came into the game saying I will do whatever it takes to take out their running back or quarterback.. and then I go through total intent 

 

If I'm just flying around football field and one play happens, where I don't protect the quarterback as much as I should have... Because he also slid late and I take his head off 

 

Illegal yes.. Violent yes

 

I keep going back to Jim McMahon because that player had the intent to seriously injure him..  before he did it 

 

You don't go up to a quarterback after the play and body slam him on his head unless you're thinking it 

 

I don't think that player woke up with any intent to try to derail Trevor Lawrence's career.. he made a bang bang play where he did not try and protect Trevor Lawrence in the heat 

 

As I said if Lawrence slides two yards earlier I don't think he's hitting him 

 

The bang bang of the play allowed this illegal hit... If the slide happened the yards earlier I don't think he's coming in to take off his head.. because Trevor was trying to get every foot 

 

I've been in locker rooms with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of guys over the years and it's very few who are psychopaths and have intent to be dirty and hurt

 

 

 

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

I totally agree with @GunnerBill on this hit.
 

I thought originally when I saw it live it was borderline dirty.  I have seem several of these slides where the defensive player is already in motion and looks to be avoiding the hit and the end result is much worse as the QB ends up driven down and the head smacks the ground as the defender goes over the top.

 

Then I pulled it up after seeing this thread and advance it frame by frame and it is pretty damning to me.  
 

You can see Lawrence start to slow down and begin his slide at the 46 yard line.  The Texan is lined up at the 42 yard line squaring himself up.  Both players are 2 yards on either side of the 1st down marker and 4 yards apart.

 

At that point, the Defender is 100% square like he is going to make a tackle.  The next frame you can see both of Trevor’s legs are under him as he is fully committed to the slide.  At this point he is between the 45 and 46 yard line and the first down marker is the 44 - so he is sliding short of the line to gain.

 

What I find Damning is that at this moment the defender shifts from square up like you are going to make a tackle - to driving forward toward Lawerence and his arms move from his side to in front.  At this point he is still a good 3.5 yards apart and his goal is no longer to tackle, but to hit Lawrence.
 

He takes this time to launch himself at Lawrence and makes no effort to avoid or not strike him as hard as he can.  To me that is 100% dirty and I nearly always side with the defenders in these cases.  The defender had time to adjust and chose to go through Lawrence and cause the injury.  I don’t think it was premeditated, but I also think it could of been avoided and therefore is dirty - he had time to adjust.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 3 by Rochesterfan

[gonzo1105]

I think it was a dirty hit and he has a history of it by punching Johnson and choking Brady. 
 

Rex Ryan brought up a good point I thought on get up. They should be teaching QBs to slide head first instead of teaching them feet first because of a defender does hit them their head is going to snap back and smash the back of their head. By going headfirst a defender will be more likely to protect themselves 

[Bockeye]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yeah but intent is a lot tougher to judge when there's 22 guys flying around 

 

If I came into the game saying I will do whatever it takes to take out their running back or quarterback.. and then I go through total intent 

 

If I'm just flying around football field and one play happens, where I don't protect the quarterback as much as I should have... Because he also slid late and I take his head off 

 

Illegal yes.. Violent yes

 

I keep going back to Jim McMahon because that player had the intent to seriously injure him..  before he did it 

 

You don't go up to a quarterback after the play and body slam him on his head unless you're thinking it 

 

I don't think that player woke up with any intent to try to derail Trevor Lawrence's career.. he made a bang bang play where he did not try and protect Trevor Lawrence in the heat 

 

As I said if Lawrence slides two yards earlier I don't think he's hitting him 

 

The bang bang of the play allowed this illegal hit... If the slide happened the yards earlier I don't think he's coming in to take off his head.. because Trevor was trying to get every foot 

 

I've been in locker rooms with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of guys over the years and it's very few who are psychopaths and have intent to be dirty and hurt

 

 

 

 

 

I get your view point, but the forearm to the head is what seals “intent to injure” for me.  Trained in Muay Thai for years, and you know when you’re coming in with a forearm, your intent is to injure to the most severe degree possible.  Players aren’t taught to tackle with forearm. 

[Buffalo716]

18 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

He’s 100% getting suspended lol if that’s your basis for when a player is dirty then you’re arguing the wrong side 😂. I believe he also choked out Tom Brady and punched a bears player that wasn’t even in the game haha the guy has had previous issues 

 

Obviously you’re entitled to your own opinion I’m not trying to change your mind here, but I think a lot of players,coaches and fans lost a ton of respect for Demeco Ryans today and I was just trying to show the other side of it.  

Some of what he said was good but he really should’ve cut the ‘the jaguars overreacted to it’ bit 🤣. Don’t think demeco made too many friends today 

 

id honestly be a little bit worried about Stroud now if I was them 

I distinguish things that happened between the whistle... Aka the hit that happened yesterday 

 

And things that happen after the whistle completely different of dirty 

 

Hauschka getting blindsided when he's walking off the field , not making himself a part of a play.. is dirty... Jim McMahon getting body slammed on his head after a play is dirty 

 

You can call this dirty.. but it's between the whistle on the field of play , where stuff like that does occur unfortunately 

 

It's a lot less dirty than body slamming a quarterback on his head after the play.. that's what I consider dirty

[GoBills808]

42 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

At the speed of the game.. it's impossible to judge intent 

 

These guys are not going 3 miles an hour..  you're going 20 miles an hour with 22 bodies flying around the field 

 

If Trevor Lawrence wanted to guarantee his safety he could have slid one or two yards earlier 

 

Late sliding is inviting a hit... Again watch Jim McMahon get body slammed on his head 

 

That is dirty on the field... This is not that 

 

You can make the case that he didn't do enough to try to protect Lawrence... But until you're running around 20 miles an hour with 22 other grown men on the field it's tough to judge intent 

 

I really doubt that guy wanted to seriously injure Lawrence because most football players are not evil

Players try to injure other players all the time

 

Guys carrying injuries get highlighted on scouting reports. They're trying to win at all costs

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Yeah but intent is a lot tougher to judge when there's 22 guys flying around 

 

If I came into the game saying I will do whatever it takes to take out their running back or quarterback.. and then I go through total intent 

 

If I'm just flying around football field and one play happens, where I don't protect the quarterback as much as I should have... Because he also slid late and I take his head off 

 

Illegal yes.. Violent yes

 

I keep going back to Jim McMahon because that player had the intent to seriously injure him..  before he did it 

 

You don't go up to a quarterback after the play and body slam him on his head unless you're thinking it 

 

I don't think that player woke up with any intent to try to derail Trevor Lawrence's career.. he made a bang bang play where he did not try and protect Trevor Lawrence in the heat 

 

As I said if Lawrence slides two yards earlier I don't think he's hitting him 

 

The bang bang of the play allowed this illegal hit... If the slide happened the yards earlier I don't think he's coming in to take off his head.. because Trevor was trying to get every foot 

 

I've been in locker rooms with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of guys over the years and it's very few who are psychopaths and have intent to be dirty and hurt

 

 

 

I'm sorry if that us your bar for intent you are misunderstanding the word. You do not need the level of pre-determination that you are talking about to have intent. 

 

He doesn't need to have intended to hurt Lawrence before the game for that hit to be intentional. That is an entirely spurious argument. 

 

5 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

I totally agree with @GunnerBill on this hit.
 

I thought originally when I saw it live it was borderline dirty.  I have seem several of these slides where the defensive player is already in motion and looks to be avoiding the hit and the end result is much worse as the QB ends up driven down and the head smacks the ground as the defender goes over the top.

 

Then I pulled it up after seeing this thread and advance it frame by frame and it is pretty damning to me.  
 

You can see Lawrence start to slow down and begin his slide at the 46 yard line.  The Texan is lined up at the 42 yard line squaring himself up.  Both players are 2 yards on either side of the 1st down marker and 4 yards apart.

 

At that point, the Defender is 100% square like he is going to make a tackle.  The next frame you can see both of Trevor’s legs are under him as he is fully committed to the slide.  At this point he is between the 45 and 46 yard line and the first down marker is the 44 - so he is sliding short of the line to gain.

 

What I find Damning is that at this moment the defender shifts from square up like you are going to make a tackle - to driving forward toward Lawerence and his arms move from his side to in front.  At this point he is still a good 3.5 yards apart and his goal is no longer to tackle, but to hit Lawrence.
 

He takes this time to launch himself at Lawrence and makes no effort to avoid or not strike him as hard as he can.  To me that is 100% dirty and I nearly always side with the defenders in these cases.  The defender had time to adjust and chose to go through Lawrence and cause the injury.  I don’t think it was premeditated, but I also think it could of been avoided and therefore is dirty - he had time to adjust.

 

 

 

 

 

Yep. I am watching the exact same thing you are. Not sure what anyone arguing otherwise is watching. The decision to change angle, the decision to raise and lead with the forearm and the decision to launch towards the QB are all intentional decisions. Decisions he made with the intention to hurt Lawrence.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

Just now, gonzo1105 said:

I think it was a dirty hit and he has a history of it by punching Johnson and choking Brady. 
 

Rex Ryan brought up a good point I thought on get up. They should be teaching QBs to slide head first instead of teaching them feet first because of a defender does hit them their head is going to snap back and smash the back of their head. By going headfirst a defender will be more likely to protect themselves 

 

Not sure that head first slides would help. If QB slides head first and defender launches head first at him could have catastrophic neck/head injuries.

 

For this particular hit I have to agree it's a really dirty hit. The defender is almost 5 yards away from T-law when he starts his slide. He could've easily avoided the diving fore-arm shiver to the head.

 

 

[Buffalo716]

7 minutes ago, Bockeye said:

I get your view point, but the forearm to the head is what seals “intent to injure” for me.  Trained in Muay Thai for years, and you know when you’re coming in with a forearm, your intent is to injure to the most severe degree possible.  Players aren’t taught to tackle with forearm. 

Lots of NFL players don't wrap up now and shoulder tackle 

 

Just hit someone as hard as they can with their chest or forearm or shoulder 

 

I agree 100% forearms are dangerous and that is why you can't use your forearm on a defenseless player... That's why he was flagged 

 

I think it just boils down to... Do you really think before the game started he said I will do whatever it takes to take out Lawrence...

 

If you believe yes then that is intent and it would be very dirty... Or it happened on a fast football field and he just did not protect Trevor Lawrence to his best ability 

 

I'll tell you what if somebody did that on purpose I don't think he would apologize

Edited December 3 by Buffalo716