Ladd McConkey

[dma0034]

I wanted Thomas Jr and was sad (and a little surprised) he went to the Jags. Ladd looks like Wes Welker out there and I always thought Welker was one of the truly under appreciated WRs. He was on that Pats team with Moss and he was arguably the more important WR.

Edited December 29, 2024 by dma0034

[gonzo1105]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I know he is more of a deep threat than Shakir. I said as much. But he is still a slot receiver and no, the Bills could not "use him like they used Stefon Diggs with probably better results." 

 

McConkey cannot be a down in and down out boundary receiver. He doesn't have the skillset to do it. I know you hate that but it is the truth.

 

At the end of the day, players are not pigeonholed like they used to be in one spot or another. You take the best player and you find a way to utilize him in your offense. Thats what great offensive coordinators do. The fact of the matter is you had him rated fairly low in your rankings(8th I believe) and he's  and he's proving you wrong. Obviously the Bills didn't find him to be the best Wide Receiver.  He's got the 3rd most yards as a rookie WR, at some point you just have to acknowledge that he's really good and would have been a good player for anyone including the Bills.

[Sierra Foothills]

He's a fine young lad, the McConkey boy...

 

And his sister Lass, is a bonnie, young lassie too.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

 

At the end of the day, players are not pigeonholed like they used to be in one spot or another. You take the best player and you find a way to utilize him in your offense. Thats what great offensive coordinators do. The fact of the matter is you had him rated fairly low in your rankings(8th I believe) and he's  and he's proving you wrong. Obviously the Bills didn't find him to be the best Wide Receiver.  He's got the 3rd most yards as a rookie WR, at some point you just have to acknowledge that he's really good and would have been a good player for anyone including the Bills.

 

I have never said anything other than Ladd McConkey is a really good football player. I even said it in the run up to the draft that I thought he could be a very good slot receiver. But the way I grade, and you are entitled to disagree with it as a methodology, that's up to you... slot only receivers are not in the premium position category and therefore they have to be elite prospects for me to consider them 1st round talents. McConkey wasn't an elite prospect to me, though he was a very good one. 

 

It isn't about being wrong or being right. He is a very good player. But I do think he is slot only and I always have and always will value guys who win outside in the NFL - whether that is on edges of the line or on the boundary - higher than guys who win inside. Because the former is just harder to compensate for with scheme than the latter. The difference between Shakir and McConkey in the slot is not as great as the difference between a top end outside receiver and a middling one. I can find me a Khalil Shakir on day 3 of the draft.

[GASabresIUFan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I have never said anything other than Ladd McConkey is a really good football player. I even said it in the run up to the draft that I thought he could be a very good slot receiver. But the way I grade, and you are entitled to disagree with it as a methodology, that's up to you... slot only receivers are not in the premium position category and therefore they have to be elite prospects for me to consider them 1st round talents. McConkey wasn't an elite prospect to me, though he was a very good one. 

 

It isn't about being wrong or being right. He is a very good player. But I do think he is slot only and I always have and always will value guys who win outside in the NFL - whether that is on edges of the line or on the boundary - higher than guys who win inside. Because the former is just harder to compensate for with scheme than the latter. The difference between Shakir and McConkey in the slot is not as great as the difference between a top end outside receiver and a middling one. I can find me a Khalil Shakir on day 3 of the draft.

and this is where you are completely wrong.

 

McConkey is the same size if not bigger than Diggs.  He is also faster.  He is a great route runner and excellent at finding holes in the defense.  He has excellent hands (which Diggs didn't), can break tackles and out run defenders.  According to their combine stats, McConkey is also a better pure athlete than Diggs.  So tell me, what skill is he lacking to be a boundary player?

Your premise that WRs are slot or boundary only is completely flawed.  This isn't 1990s football.  OCs move their best players around to get the matchups they want.  Just because Samuel has failed and Shakir can't get deep, doesn't mean McConkey wouldn't here.  In fact, it's more likely than not that McConkey would be doing for Josh what he is doing for Herbert.  

 

I have zero against Coleman and like the pick, but McConkey is the better player and he is also a better player than Shakir.  He would thrive in our offense.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFan said:

and this is where you are completely wrong.

 

McConkey is the same size if not bigger than Diggs.  He is also faster.  He is a great route runner and excellent at finding holes in the defense.  He has excellent hands (which Diggs didn't), can break tackles and out run defenders.  According to their combine stats, McConkey is also a better pure athlete than Diggs.  So tell me, what skill is he lacking to be a boundary player?

Your premise that WRs are slot or boundary only is completely flawed.  This isn't 1990s football.  OCs move their best players around to get the matchups they want.  Just because Samuel has failed and Shakir can't get deep, doesn't mean McConkey wouldn't here.  In fact, it's more likely than not that McConkey would be doing for Josh what he is doing for Herbert.  

 

I have zero against Coleman and like the pick, but McConkey is the better player and he is also a better player than Shakir.  He would thrive in our offense.

 

McConkey is a decent route runner but he isn't Stef Diggs level elite as a route runner. Few people are. He also isn't the "the same size if not bigger" he is and inch shorter, 10 lbs lighter and has an inch shorter arms. All of which matters to get off press coverage outside. 

 

You can keep banging this drum but the NFL always tells you what the truth is. And it is telling us on McConkey. He is a really good slot receiver. He might even be an elite slot receiver. He could be in that St Brown, prime Cooper Kupp territory. But that is where he is going to be used in the NFL and that is where he will produce. As a 65-80% slot guy who you can use split out in some packages but can't expect to be a sustainable long term option there.

 

I also agree he is better than Shakir btw. I haven't ever disputed that. But the difference between an elite slot and a good slot is just not as significant in the NFL as the difference between an elite outside guy and a good outside guy. It's a tier two position not a premium position. Same as nickel corner isn't as valuable as boundary corner. 

 

I am also not saying McConkey can't get deep. I explicitly said above he can. But he is gonna do it largely from the slot against off coverage with a free release. I'm sure he'd be doing that here for Josh as you say. But the upgrade from Shakir to McConkey in terms of impact on the offense isn't as significant as the impact of going from whatever we had outside... I dunno... MVS? Claypool? To Coleman (and I am not even Coleman's biggest fan... I had McConkey graded above him). 

Edited December 29, 2024 by GunnerBill

[Doc Brown]

Beane's failure in the draft was not trading up for Brian Thomas Jr. despite all the draft capital he had in the 2024 and 2025 draft.  They missed on him and it's going to be painful knowing that during his entire career.  I'm hoping Coleman develops into a solid outside #2 WR but Beane missed on a potential outside #1 WR when it was within his reach. 

 

BTW, McConkey's just a very good slot guy and we would've had the same problem with our outside WR's not creating enough separation if we drafted him.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Doc Brown

[Magox]

There are quite a few misconceptions about both “slot” receivers and Ladd McConkey.

 

The outdated way of thinking was that there was a huge gulf of value disparity between an elite boundary receiver vs a slot receiver.   
 

As the NFL continues to evolve we are seeing lots more usage of offensive game planners using their receivers to get more targets in the slot than the past.  Which is why more and more receivers are getting their production from the slot than ever before.

 

This is why receivers who are primarily slot receivers that are playing at an elite level are getting paid almost as much as elite boundary receivers.

 

Among Ra St Brown is getting paid $30m a year.   Cooper Kupps contract back in 2022 was right at the highest ever for any WR at nearly $27m a year.

 

Ceedee Lamb was just given an NFL record contract, I bring him up because over half his snaps come from the slot.  
 

Even a guy like Christian Kirk who was considered a decent slot was awarded a couple years ago with an $18m a year contract.

 

The point is that NFL GM’s and offensive play callers are seeing that the value of receivers who excel from the slot are considered more valuable than they were a few years ago and that the value disparity from boundary to slot is tightening and tightening rapidly.   That is clearly the case by both percentage of targets increasing to the slot and the contracts being offered to guys who can win from that spot.

 

As far as Ladd McConkey is concerned, he’s been type cast by many as just a “slot” guy and you can’t help but think that it’s primarily due to his skin color.    I mean, how many white boundary receivers are there in NFL?   
 

Ladd McConkey’s speed is in the high 4.3’s and you know what?  His play speed matches his timed speed.   He blows past defenders with the ball in his hands and on deeper routes.

 

His route running is already at an elite level.  He is already separating from DB’s at a high level and has a full route tree.   His footwork is insane.

 

He has played from the slot 67% of the time so far this year, which if he was given the opportunity to play more from the boundary he could do that.  The reason why he plays as much as he does is because the Chargers next two best receivers are purely boundary guys in Palmer and Johnson. 
 

McConkey played 70% of his college snaps from the boundary, so this notion that he can only play from the slot is silly and flat out not true.  Most of his career snaps have been from the outside and even a 1/3 of his NFL snaps are from the boundary as well.

 

I like Coleman a lot and the Bills offensive play calling calls for their receivers to do a lot of blocking and having McConkey to go along with Shakir probably would split a lot of their snaps and wouldn’t have made the most sense.     On the other hand I believe good play callers find ways to get their best players on the field.

 

McConkey as I was saying through the draft process I believed was going to be one of the best receivers from this deep draft, I strongly believed he was going to excel, my only hesitancy was that he never had big numbers in college but everything else checked out aside from his thin build.    

The way the NFL is trending towards, McConkey won’t have to have a high snap count from the boundary to be highly successful against opposing defenses and to be rewarded a mega contract nearly on par with the elite boundary guys.
 

 

[BobbyC81]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Beane's failure in the draft was not trading up for Brian Thomas Jr. despite all the draft capital he had in the 2024 and 2025 draft.  They missed on him and it's going to be painful knowing that during his entire career.  I'm hoping Coleman develops into a solid outside #2 WR but Beane missed on a potential outside #1 WR when it was within his reach. 

 

BTW, McConkey's just a very good slot guy and we would've had the same problem with our outside WR's not creating enough separation if we drafted him.

It takes 2 teams to make a trade.  Maybe the Bills couldn’t find a trade partner to get high enough to get Thomas.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Magox said:

There are quite a few misconceptions about both “slot” receivers and Ladd McConkey.

 

The outdated way of thinking was that there was a huge gulf of value disparity between an elite boundary receiver vs a slot receiver.   
 

As the NFL continues to evolve we are seeing lots more usage of offensive game planners using their receivers to get more targets in the slot than the past.  Which is why more and more receivers are getting their production from the slot than ever before.

 

This is why receivers who are primarily slot receivers that are playing at an elite level are getting paid almost as much as elite boundary receivers.

 

Among Ra St Brown is getting paid $30m a year.   Cooper Kupps contract back in 2022 was right at the highest ever for any WR at nearly $27m a year.

 

Ceedee Lamb was just given an NFL record contract, I bring him up because over half his snaps come from the slot.  
 

Even a guy like Christian Kirk who was considered a decent slot was awarded a couple years ago with an $18m a year contract.

 

The point is that NFL GM’s and offensive play callers are seeing that the value of receivers who excel from the slot are considered more valuable than they were a few years ago and that the value disparity from boundary to slot is tightening and tightening rapidly.   That is clearly the case by both percentage of targets increasing to the slot and the contracts being offered to guys who can win from that spot.

 

As far as Ladd McConkey is concerned, he’s been type cast by many as just a “slot” guy and you can’t help but think that it’s primarily due to his skin color.    I mean, how many white boundary receivers are there in NFL?   
 

Ladd McConkey’s speed is in the high 4.3’s and you know what?  His play speed matches his timed speed.   He blows past defenders with the ball in his hands and on deeper routes.

 

His route running is already at an elite level.  He is already separating from DB’s at a high level and has a full route tree.   His footwork is insane.

 

He has played from the slot 67% of the time so far this year, which if he was given the opportunity to play more from the boundary he could do that.  The reason why he plays as much as he does is because the Chargers next two best receivers are purely boundary guys in Palmer and Johnson. 
 

McConkey played 70% of his college snaps from the boundary, so this notion that he can only play from the slot is silly and flat out not true.  Most of his career snaps have been from the outside and even a 1/3 of his NFL snaps are from the boundary as well.

 

I like Coleman a lot and the Bills offensive play calling calls for their receivers to do a lot of blocking and having McConkey to go along with Shakir probably would split a lot of their snaps and wouldn’t have made the most sense.     On the other hand I believe good play callers find ways to get their best players on the field.

 

McConkey as I was saying through the draft process I believed was going to be one of the best receivers from this deep draft, I strongly believed he was going to excel, my only hesitancy was that he never had big numbers in college but everything else checked out aside from his thin build.    

The way the NFL is trending towards, McConkey won’t have to have a high snap count from the boundary to be highly successful against opposing defenses and to be rewarded a mega contract nearly on par with the elite boundary guys.
 

 

 

Trust me my view on McConkey has zero to do with his skin colour. He is a slot receiver because that is where his skillset fits in the NFL. 

[Dr.Sack]

I wanted McConkey right after the Keon pick. I felt we missed a chance to double dip. We have done this before at CB, & DE. 

[DCofNC]

7 hours ago, FireChans said:

Where are you getting extra 3 to 4 years?

 

Are you under the assumption that we are paying a slot WR big bucks right now? Or that we need to?

 

FWIW, Ladd will be more expensive than Shakir in cap dollars this year and next. 
 

Sure if the Chargers called and said they would trade Ladd for Shakir straight up, I think that’s probably a no-brainer. If they said they would trade us Ladd for 2 seconds, I would not bother. 
 

as good as he is been, I think we are seeing around his ceiling as far as production goes. The Chargers will of course target more receiving help and if they are successful, they will eat into Ladd’s numbers. 
 

Slot guys are nice. Great running backs are nice. Great linebackers are nice. But that’s all they are.

I think it’s pretty clear you are completely clueless.

3 hours ago, Magox said:

There are quite a few misconceptions about both “slot” receivers and Ladd McConkey.

 

The outdated way of thinking was that there was a huge gulf of value disparity between an elite boundary receiver vs a slot receiver.   
 

As the NFL continues to evolve we are seeing lots more usage of offensive game planners using their receivers to get more targets in the slot than the past.  Which is why more and more receivers are getting their production from the slot than ever before.

 

This is why receivers who are primarily slot receivers that are playing at an elite level are getting paid almost as much as elite boundary receivers.

 

Among Ra St Brown is getting paid $30m a year.   Cooper Kupps contract back in 2022 was right at the highest ever for any WR at nearly $27m a year.

 

Ceedee Lamb was just given an NFL record contract, I bring him up because over half his snaps come from the slot.  
 

Even a guy like Christian Kirk who was considered a decent slot was awarded a couple years ago with an $18m a year contract.

 

The point is that NFL GM’s and offensive play callers are seeing that the value of receivers who excel from the slot are considered more valuable than they were a few years ago and that the value disparity from boundary to slot is tightening and tightening rapidly.   That is clearly the case by both percentage of targets increasing to the slot and the contracts being offered to guys who can win from that spot.

 

As far as Ladd McConkey is concerned, he’s been type cast by many as just a “slot” guy and you can’t help but think that it’s primarily due to his skin color.    I mean, how many white boundary receivers are there in NFL?   
 

Ladd McConkey’s speed is in the high 4.3’s and you know what?  His play speed matches his timed speed.   He blows past defenders with the ball in his hands and on deeper routes.

 

His route running is already at an elite level.  He is already separating from DB’s at a high level and has a full route tree.   His footwork is insane.

 

He has played from the slot 67% of the time so far this year, which if he was given the opportunity to play more from the boundary he could do that.  The reason why he plays as much as he does is because the Chargers next two best receivers are purely boundary guys in Palmer and Johnson. 
 

McConkey played 70% of his college snaps from the boundary, so this notion that he can only play from the slot is silly and flat out not true.  Most of his career snaps have been from the outside and even a 1/3 of his NFL snaps are from the boundary as well.

 

I like Coleman a lot and the Bills offensive play calling calls for their receivers to do a lot of blocking and having McConkey to go along with Shakir probably would split a lot of their snaps and wouldn’t have made the most sense.     On the other hand I believe good play callers find ways to get their best players on the field.

 

McConkey as I was saying through the draft process I believed was going to be one of the best receivers from this deep draft, I strongly believed he was going to excel, my only hesitancy was that he never had big numbers in college but everything else checked out aside from his thin build.    

The way the NFL is trending towards, McConkey won’t have to have a high snap count from the boundary to be highly successful against opposing defenses and to be rewarded a mega contract nearly on par with the elite boundary guys.
 

 

Now you went and backed your opinion with facts, that kind of stuff won’t fly around here.  
 

Well done.

[Magox]

8 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

I wanted McConkey right after the Keon pick. I felt we missed a chance to double dip. We have done this before at CB, & DE. 

I had a huge draft crush on McConkey,  hearing and watching how he was dominating DB’s with their 1 on 1’s one after another really is what convinced me that he was as close to be a sure fire NFL high producing WR as anyone in the draft class.    I knew his floor was high but wasn’t sure how high his ceiling was.    After seeing his 4.39 40, it raised my views of his ceiling.

 

The only things where I had concerns was his lack of college production (in part due to injuries) and his semi slight frame, wasn’t sure if he would have durability concerns and if press jammed he would have some struggles.

 

 

[playaction]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Trust me my view on McConkey has zero to do with his skin colour. He is a slot receiver because that is where his skillset fits in the NFL. 

Who was the Ravens boundary receiver who was super fast.  Little fella, lighter complection?

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, Magox said:

He has played from the slot 67% of the time so far this year, which if he was given the opportunity to play more from the boundary he could do that.  The reason why he plays as much as he does is because the Chargers next two best receivers are purely boundary guys in Palmer and Johnson. 

 

Quentin Johnston is not the reason McConkey has played mostly from the slot. LA would love to replace him with someone, anyone. If McConkey could play that role they would have made the switch weeks ago. McConkey plays from the slot because that's where his skill set fits best.

[Magox]

16 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Quentin Johnston is not the reason McConkey has played mostly from the slot. LA would love to replace him with someone, anyone. If McConkey could play that role they would have made the switch weeks ago. McConkey plays from the slot because that's where his skill set fits best.

I didn’t say that, however I can agree that he fits very well in the slot, but if there were other competent receivers on the team that could also play the slot than his percentage of snaps from the slot would be less than 67%.

 

Either way, people attempting to pigeon hole players as “just” slot receivers are wrong on substance/facts and that characterizing players as slot guys as some sort of pejorative are outdated in their thinking in todays NFL offenses.

 

Elite receivers who constantly win in the slot are valued by GM’s just about as much as guys who win on the boundaries.  That’s just a fact

Edited December 29, 2024 by Magox

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Beane's failure in the draft was not trading up for Brian Thomas Jr. despite all the draft capital he had in the 2024 and 2025 draft.  They missed on him and it's going to be painful knowing that during his entire career. 

 

Sure with hindsight if the Bills could go back now they would trade up for BTJ, no question. But that is going to be the case in every single draft every single year. You are always going to look back and kick yourself for not trading up for such and such player. It's been studied and shown that the wisest draft strategy is to stay put or trade down and maximize the number of picks you have. If you follow that process religiously it should work out more in the long run even though there will inevitably be times where hindsight makes you kick yourself. With hindsight BTJ would have been the 1st or 2nd WR off the board but GMs just have to work with the information they have in front of them.

 

Anyways this whole conversation is happening way way too early. Coleman vs McConkey is the classic high ceiling vs high floor. Everybody knew McConkey would enter the NFL looking better than Coleman. So taking victory laps after year one is patently ridiculous. That goes for comparing any rookie WR, or any rookie player for that matter. We have to be more patient than that. Coleman has already exceeded what most of this board expected of him in the pre-draft process. He was taken as a high ceiling player that would need to rely on his pure physical ability while developing the nuances of the position which is exactly what we're seeing. Eric Moulds, Davante Adams, Nico Collins - that's the path you're hoping for with a player like him.

[T master]

On 12/1/2024 at 4:04 PM, HansLanda said:

see: Khalil Shakir. I get it with the production as a rookie, but let's just see how Keon plays out as that is the next natural question. 

 

And i would imagine if he hadn't gotten hurt his chemistry & production would be better for this season because he was on a tear before he got hurt & had to sit out all of those games !! 

[HappyDays]

8 minutes ago, Magox said:

Either way, people attempting to pigeon hole players as “just” slot receivers are wrong on substance/facts and that characterizing players as slot guys as some sort of pejorative are outdated in their thinking in todays NFL offenses.

 

Elite receivers who constantly win in the slot are valued by GM’s just about as much as guys who win on the boundaries.

 

It's not a pejorative, it's just a fact that some WRs are primarily slots. And your 2nd point isn't true. The market doesn't lie - out of the top 20 WRs in AAV only two (ARSB and Kupp) are primarily slots, ranking 4th and 10th respectively:

 

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver

 

So yes if you are truly the very best slot WR in the NFL you can get a top tier contract (although still short of the AAVs given to the very best outside WRs). But at every WR tier the outside WRs are very clearly valued more than their slot counterparts.

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

It's not a pejorative, it's just a fact that some WRs are primarily slots. And your 2nd point isn't true. The market doesn't lie - out of the top 20 WRs in AAV only two (ARSB and Kupp) are primarily slots, ranking 4th and 10th respectively:

 

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver

 

So yes if you are truly the very best slot WR in the NFL you can get a top tier contract (although still short of the AAVs given to the very best outside WRs). But at every WR tier the outside WRs are very clearly valued more than their slot counterparts.

 

And both were taken in the 3rd round or later.