Emmanuel Forbes CB- Waived by Washington

[NewEra]

9 hours ago, H2o said:

If you're basing your entire argument off of PFF grades then 

 

Elam has not been really good. He makes a play here or there, but takes bad angles and makes more mental errors than the other DB'S. There's a reason he can't get on the field and it's not because of Douglas and Benford alone. 

 

Benford also is not the best CB in the NFL. You put him on another team, in another system, and he's just average. We have seen it multiple times, that McDermott knows how to coach up DB'S. Benford is nothing more than a product of our defense. 

I agree with the premise but you’re not giving Benford enough credit.  Calling him average in any other system is 👎🏻.  Saying the “he’s nothing more than a product of this Stystem” is equally disrespectful   
 

I agree that mcds D has helped him become better than he would be on other teams and mcd has coached him up but he’s better than average and he’s definitely something more than a product of this system.  
 

Levi and Dane left here and signed for 4-5M per year.  They were clearly products of the system….and either were ever even considered “good”.  Benford may be an all pro this season.  - most definitely pro bowl.  His coverage is sticky and he knows how to use his hands well enough to rarely get flagged.  He may be the best tackling CB in the league.  That particular skill isn’t ever based on a system.

 

Benford would be good in most systems.  Not many teams play lots of zone and benfords man defense continues to improve.  He’s not “average”.

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

I guess. 

 

He started as a rookie for many games and was the best CB on the team by the end of the year. His man covg against tyreek hill was excellent 

 

He then got hurt his second year and had to go on ir. 

 

When he was fully healthy he once again was solid and made a huge int in the playoffs and almost had another one. 

 

From everything I read he was excellent in camp and took a jump in play but Benford has turned into a gem. Douglas is also really good. It's possible that Benford is the best CB in the NFL right now. It's not mutually exclusive

 

It's just a numbers game imo and not really an indictment on him as some failed pick. 

 

I think the plan was always for Benford and Elam to start by 24 or 25

 

Benford flat beat him out in camp last summer. Even before Elam was hurt. He lost that competition fair and square and that was coming into it with a lead after ending their rookie years the stronger of the two - as you say. 

 

Elam's biggest issue in a zone defense is still what it was coming out. His transitions are clunky and at this stage I gotta imagine the Bills have done whatever they can to tidy the technique up.. but his transitions still just aren't as good as Tre White, Benford, Douglas even Dane Jackson. And in a heavy zone scheme that is just hard to overcome despite all the things Elam can offer that some of those other guys can't.

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, H2o said:

 

Benford also is not the best CB in the NFL. You put him on another team, in another system, and he's just average. We have seen it multiple times, that McDermott knows how to coach up DB'S. Benford is nothing more than a product of our defense. 

 

This is plain wrong IMO. The disrespect Benford gets is because he is a 6th round pick, but he is super talented and going to get paid. He isn't the best corner in the NFL, that's true. But by almost any metric he has been a top 10 boundary corner in the league this year and some of that is him flat out making plays, like that exceptional pass breakup to Hopkins against the Chiefs. It is more than just "he knows the scheme and is always in the right position." People presume because he was a 6th round pick he is just another Levi Wallace or Dane Jackson redux. He isn't, talent wise he is much closer to Tre White (not quite as talented as Tre but close) than he is to those other guys. He is going to get PAID either this offseason by the Bills or next offseason as a free agent.

[CSBill]

Not sure there is a need for Forbes, but maybe a PS signing as insurance.

 

In my opinion, Elam is an average NFL Corner. There are some things he can do well, and some things can't. He is stuck behind two very good NFL Corners, and the one obvious thing both do better than Elam is play with physicality. Both can hit hard and tackle people. Elam is probably faster than both, but he is behind them in strength and the physical play.

 

 

Edited December 1 by CSBill

[GunnerBill]

Forbes doesn't fit our scheme. I quite liked him coming out because he had a pretty unique skillset. Fair to say the Commanders scheme change has hurt but similar to Elam he is someone who has value in man coverage in a league that every year seems to lean more and more into zone heavy coverage. 

 

Also worth saying that in that class I thought Witherspoon, Gonzalez and Porter were bona fide studs and should have been the first 3 corners off the board and all have been great.

 

The rest all had question marks - Forbes (was my CB4), Banks (my CB5) and then Cam Smith (my CB7), DJ Turner (my CB9), JuJu Brents (my CB12), Tyrique Stevenson (my CB10).... that entire "second tier" has struggled. You have to do down to Garrett Williams (my CB14) who went early 3rd - but I had a late 3rd grade - on to the Cardinals to find the next "success" certainly as an outside guy. My CB6 was Clark Phillips III and he has been good for the Falcons but as a slot only whereas I thought despite his size you might get a bit of outside flex with him.

[BuffaloBillyG]

Y'all realize we have a really solid 53 man team? Right? Buffalo isn't really a team that has to dumpster dive other teams former busts anymore.

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

There’s also a reason they traded a 3rd round pick for Douglas after Elam got roasted vs Jacksonville lol

Forbes has no shot tbh.

 

He was previously very bad. Now with a new HC and defense and they decided he wasn’t worth sticking with MIDSEASON. Massive red flag after red flag of a dude who was probably over drafted by 2 rounds. No thanks.

Forbes has been AWFUL. 

[Nephilim17]

6'1" 166 lbs? Seems like he was waived by his local grocer as well.

[gonzo1105]

49 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Y'all realize we have a really solid 53 man team? Right? Buffalo isn't really a team that has to dumpster dive other teams former busts anymore.

im not advocating for him to be on the 53. I said PS and there is zero wrong with a couple former high round guys being on a 17 man PS as reclamation projects. The Bills will also most likely have a need there next year with Douglas likely exiting and Elam in the last year of his contract and zero chance at the 5th year.
 

We’re a team that is right to the cap and finding cheap contracts that can contribute is something this team has to do now and in the future.
 

As for Forbes I could take it or leave it. He’s supposedly up to 180 pounds now . He has high ability it’s worth taking a look at if he’s willing to take a small role that can expand   

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

im not advocating for him to be on the 53. I said PS and there is zero wrong with a couple former high round guys being on a 17 man PS as reclamation projects. The Bills will also most likely have a need there next year with Douglas likely exiting and Elam in the last year of his contract and zero chance at the 5th year.
 

We’re a team that is right to the cap and finding cheap contracts that can contribute is something this team has to do now and in the future.
 

As for Forbes I could take it or leave it. He’s supposedly up to 180 pounds now . He has high ability it’s worth taking a look at if he’s willing to take a small role that can expand   

Dumpster diving on former high draft picks that haven’t succeeded as a general rule is always a reasonable strategy imo.

 

If you can get the upside to hit, you end up with solid starter+ vs developing an UDFA over 2-3’s whose upside is like decent backup/spot starter.

 

[North Buffalo]

Cant have enough good CBs and safeties on the roster... people with negative waves about Elam are just negative people in general... is the kid perfect nooo but he has talent and given how the Chefs secondary looks without their best corner... I just dont understand where the beef is with Elam... 

[MarlinTheMagician]

13 hours ago, NewEra said:

To date, he is absolutely a failed 1st rd pick-  I think might be a solid CB and have a nice career- but he’s a failed 1st rd pick to date

I understand that sentiment, but too early for me to make that call.  If not for Benford being a trememdous find late in the draft, Elam would likely be starting now.  I don't think being behind Douglas (who I love) and Benford makes Elam a failure, even though he was a first-rounder.  Wasn't he pretty good the week he started this year?  I ask that forthrightly, not with an agenda, but I don't remember him being called out for any major lapses.

[Coach Tuesday]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is plain wrong IMO. The disrespect Benford gets is because he is a 6th round pick, but he is super talented and going to get paid. He isn't the best corner in the NFL, that's true. But by almost any metric he has been a top 10 boundary corner in the league this year and some of that is him flat out making plays, like that exceptional pass breakup to Hopkins against the Chiefs. It is more than just "he knows the scheme and is always in the right position." People presume because he was a 6th round pick he is just another Levi Wallace or Dane Jackson redux. He isn't, talent wise he is much closer to Tre White (not quite as talented as Tre but close) than he is to those other guys. He is going to get PAID either this offseason by the Bills or next offseason as a free agent.

He also has been playing more man this year and excelling at it - if he decides he’s a man corner he will be leaving money on the table to sign here.

[MarlinTheMagician]

I think saying Benford would be average on another team really misses the point - even if true (which I doubt).  He is on this team, not any other.  And on this team, he is absolutely NOT average, he is terrific.  The value of any DB depends in part on how good a fit he is for his team's scheme.  Makes no sense to downgrade Benford because he happens to be a perfect fit for the team he plays for.

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

I understand that sentiment, but too early for me to make that call.  If not for Benford being a trememdous find late in the draft, Elam would likely be starting now.  I don't think being behind Douglas (who I love) and Benford makes Elam a failure, even though he was a first-rounder.  Wasn't he pretty good the week he started this year?  I ask that forthrightly, not with an agenda, but I don't remember him being called out for any major lapses.

I don’t think he’s a failure as a player yet and as I’ve said- I think he’s solid and could be a good player in the future and start next season…. But as a first round pick that you trade up for- if he only plays 15% of the snaps in year 2-3 - that’s a failed use of a first round pick.  Being cost controlled for the first 4 years of their contract is a BIG part of a first round rd picks value.  They still have to decide whether or not they’re going to use his 5th year option.  When said player barely plays for the first 3 years - it’s a failed use of the pick 

Edited December 1 by NewEra

[NewEra]

50 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Cant have enough good CBs and safeties on the roster... people with negative waves about Elam are just negative people in general... is the kid perfect nooo but he has talent and given how the Chefs secondary looks without their best corner... I just dont understand where the beef is with Elam... 

as a player-  I don’t have a beef with Elam.  Mcd may and I’m sure he has his reasons. The problem lies in the team building aspect.  We used our most valuable resource plus another draft pick to trade up for him.  He gets beat out by Benford who started opposite white last year.  Then White got injured.  We didn’t start Elam.  We started Dane.  Dane wasn’t good enough and Beane had to trade a day 2 pick for a day 3 pick.  Another valuable pick traded to fill the position that we drafted Elam to play.  
 

so it’s not just that he got beat out by Benford- he was also beaten out by Dane Jackson and was deemed not good enough- which led to trading more picks for Douglas.  
 

I can’t speak for everyone- but I think that’s the beef with Elam. 
 

Imas far as his ability- I think he’s a solid corner and if Douglas or benford got hurt, he’d be a downgrade, but has the ability to hold it down and help us win games.  

Edited December 1 by NewEra

[Coach Tuesday]

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

as a player-  I don’t have a beef with Elam.  Mcd may and I’m sure he has his reasons. The problem lies in the team building aspect.  We used our most valuable resource plus another draft pick to trade up for him.  He gets beat out by Benford who started opposite white last year.  Then White got injured.  We didn’t start Elam.  We started Dane.  Dane wasn’t good enough and Beane had to trade a day 2 pick for a day 3 pick.  Another valuable pick traded to fill the position that we drafted Elam to play.  
 

so it’s not just that he got beat out by Benford- he was also beaten out by Dane Jackson and was deemed not good enough- which led to trading more picks for Douglas.  
 

I can’t speak for everyone- but I think that’s the beef with Elam. 
 

Imas far as his ability- I think he’s a solid corner and if Douglas or benford got hurt, he’d be a downgrade, but has the ability to hold it down and help us win games.  

No question that in retrospect it was a bad pick given their system and ability to groom later-round CBs.

 

Interesting enough, both of Beane’s first round “misses” (Elam and, to some extend, Edmunds) had brothers who also went in round one and also washed out.  Which suggests to me a football character issue not a skill issue.

[FireChans]

25 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

No question that in retrospect it was a bad pick given their system and ability to groom later-round CBs.

 

Interesting enough, both of Beane’s first round “misses” (Elam and, to some extend, Edmunds) had brothers who also went in round one and also washed out.  Which suggests to me a football character issue not a skill issue.

The commonality is that both players were high ceiling low floor types. If they reached their potential, they could’ve been All-Pros. Neither did, and Edmunds case became a player who looked like he should be an All-Pro but never puts it all together enough, and Elam is a player who flashes but down to down is inconsistent.

[Matt_In_NH]

Guaranteed contract and they waived him after 2 years….   What success examples are there with situations like this?   

[JerseyBills]

15 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said:

He helped win two playoff games for us. I understand that frustration. 

 

His tape vs tyreek is pretty incredible. The reason he has not fully pulled ahead IMHO is because Benford is imo a great CB in the mold of a James hasty and Douglas has the edge in physicality/ experience over Elam. 

 

I personally think the KC narrative is fake about McDuffie 

 

Benford is better than McDuffie imo 

Elam is better than Williams or Watson

And Ingram is about a tie with Williams or Watson 

 

Both organizations got 1 really top CB and two other solid CBS, but Elam is better than Williams or Watson imo

 

He literally started as a rookie and started a few weeks ago when Benford was banged up 

KC fd up imo. McDuffie was a 1st team all pro slot , why move him outside? Seems like a critical blunder to me.

Couldn't imagine moving 2nd team all pro Taron outside

Edited December 1 by JerseyBills