Raiders @ Chiefs — Black Friday — 3 PM Eastern — Prime Video

[Billl]

33 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Im not sure what NFL you’ve been watching, but we don’t have clear audio of the field. Otherwise we would hear every audible, grunt, groan, referee conversation, player interaction and more.

 

What we do see is the ref throwing a flag and then IMMEDIATELY running onto the field while signaling a false start and blowing the play dead.

 

The ref was running onto the field, blowing the play dead, before the KC player even recovered it. Why? Because false starts end the play.

 

If he was signaling illegal formation, he would have thrown the flag and stayed on the side of the field, because illegal formation allows the play to go on.

 

The fact that you’re arguing this when the evidence is so clear is mind boggling.

 

LOL, cut video with the sound removed.  I guess that’s better than the full video with sound.  

[Buff the Cat]

 

Flag was thrown immediately, then...

 

 

 

Whistle is being blown by ref, ball not recovered yet....

 

Ref signaling FALSE START.

[Einstein]

13 minutes ago, Buff the Cat said:

 

Flag was thrown immediately, then...

 

 

 

Whistle is being blown by ref, ball not recovered yet....

 

Ref signaling FALSE START.

 

Yeah it’s clear as day. @Billl is just being obstinate.

 

The ref is running into the field MID PLAY, trying to stop it.

[Livinginthepast]

The odd thing about this trainwreck of a last play is that I dont think there was a false start and/or an illegal shift so no flag should have been thrown but the fact that the refs botched the call and threw a flag and possibly whistled the play early?  threw off both teams with some players thinking no play and others reacting like there was no issue. I cant help but wonder if the Raiders players (not the sharpest bunch) just assumed no play and didnt go after the fumble and that's what led to the Chiefs recovering. In the end the Raiders just showed why they are a 2-9 team. Looking at the skill set of their players they should be at least a 5 or 6 win team but they find ways to lose and their coaches are boneheads.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 hours ago, Billl said:

 

 

and didn’t blow the whistle until the play was over.

 

 

That’s not what I see at all. He is clearly running into the field killing the clock and blowing the whistle while the ball is loose. That is an inadvertent whistle.

 

Not sure on the NFL rule but in HS you have to replay the down regardless of what happens after the inadvertent whistle.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 hours ago, Billl said:

1.  The refs literally awarded the ball to the Chiefs.  Multiple officials threw flags, so they had to confer to sort everything out before doing so.  (“Did you blow the play dead?”  “No, I called an illegal formation, did you blow the play dead?”  “No, I called an illegal shift.”  “Okay, then it’s a fumble.”)

 

3.  He ran in because there was a penalty.  Why do you think he didn’t blow that whistle that was in his mouth?

Watch the video you posted. Clearly the official at the top of the screen would be lying about not blowing the play dead. The motion he is making with his arms kills the clock which blows the play dead. He’s likely blowing the whistle as well whether you can hear it or not on video. But that doesn’t mater he is killing the clock and play while the ball is still loose. We can all see that in the video 

[Kelly to Allen]

Whether it was an illegal shift or false start is a moot point. 

 

The play was blown dead with the whistle and called a false start.

 

You can't undo the whistle lol

 

 

Similar to a ball being recovered and returned for a TD, but after the whistle blew. You can't magically make the play live afterwards. 

 

Bad break for us but the raiders deserved to lose. 

 

I'm not worried because KC schedule is brutal and they will drop a couple games. 3 games in 10 days, 3 of last 4 on the road, all decent QBs to good teams. They are going to lose a couple 

 

Even if worse comes to worse we should be able to easily create our own defacto bye week with the two seed because Baltimore and Pittsburgh schedule is also absolutely brutal and also play 3 games in 10 days.... So even with the 2 seed we can get rest and still every game at home if KC loses rd 2

 

Go Bills 

Edited December 1 by Kelly to Allen

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 hours ago, Billl said:

LOL, cut video with the sound removed.  I guess that’s better than the full video with sound.  

why do you even need sound? What do you think the the waiving of the arms means while the official runs onto the field during a loose ball?

 

clear blowing of the play dead and an inadvertent whistle since they did not rule a false start penalty.

 

what we don’t know is if that official mixed up his signals and mechanics in his head or if he had false start and then was over ruled rightly or wrongly by the white hat.
 

Regardless the play was clearly blown dead with the killing of the clock by that one official and we have an inadvertent whistle situation.

 

You can believe what you want about the actuall sound of the whistle. To me it appears pretty clear that he puts the whistle in his mouth before he kills the clock with his arms. And we know from the video that the killing of the clock happens while the ball is still loose. 
 

But again, not sure that even matters because he’s running past the number onto the field killing the clock while the ball is loose.

[Billl]

7 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Watch the video you posted. Clearly the official at the top of the screen would be lying about not blowing the play dead. The motion he is making with his arms kills the clock which blows the play dead. He’s likely blowing the whistle as well whether you can hear it or not on video. But that doesn’t mater he is killing the clock and play while the ball is still loose. We can all see that in the video 

Cool, so if he had blown the whistle the rule is that the play stands provided that there is a clear and immediate recovery which there obviously was.  So even in the scenario you imagined involving the blowing of some sort of whistle that nobody heard, nothing changes.  It’s still a fumble recovery by the Chiefs.  

 

But let’s say that they somehow decided that the recovery wasn’t immediate/clear enough.  There would be a ten second runoff.  The Chiefs still win.  

 

Maybe it’s best to just acknowledge that the Raiders fumbled the ball and that the refs didn’t impact the outcome.  Or don’t.  

[Kelly to Allen]

Just now, Billl said:

Cool, so if he had blown the whistle the rule is that the play stands provided that there is a clear and immediate recovery which there obviously was.  So even in the scenario you imagined involving the blowing of some sort of whistle that nobody heard, nothing changes.  It’s still a fumble recovery by the Chiefs.  

 

But let’s say that they somehow decided that the recovery wasn’t immediate/clear enough.  There would be a ten second runoff.  The Chiefs still win.  

 

Maybe it’s best to just acknowledge that the Raiders fumbled the ball and that the refs didn’t impact the outcome.  Or don’t.  

It's not a fumble recovery because the whistle was blown and it's a dead play. 

 

It doesn't matter if ppl " heard it or not". The refs intentionally blew it dead. 

 

You can't just pretend it's not and magically get the play to continue. 

 

Congratulations on the silly win and see you in Buffalo in the AFC championship. 

[Billl]

4 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

It's not a fumble recovery because the whistle was blown and it's a dead play. 

 

It doesn't matter if ppl " heard it or not". The refs intentionally blew it dead. 

 

You can't just pretend it's not and magically get the play to continue. 

 

Congratulations on the silly win and see you in Buffalo in the AFC championship. 

There is no whistle blown until after the play is over.

 

 

[Kelly to Allen]

Just now, Billl said:

There is no whistle blown until after the play is over.

 

 

This applies to every false start lol. It's retroactive as a dead play. 

 

It doesn't matter if the whistle is blown 1-2-3 seconds later. 

 

 

[Kelly to Allen]

I honestly can't wait for more twisting of reality when Allen beats mahomes in the AFC championship in Buffalo 🦬 

 

At that point Allen will be 5-2 vs mahomes since 21 with a missed fg and 13 seconds being the distance from 7-0 since 21...

 

KC fans will twist themselves into a pretzel about Allen's numbers as a rookie or something lol. Verderame will go on some ridiculous rant is my guess 

Edited December 1 by Kelly to Allen

[Einstein]

Just now, Kelly to Allen said:

I honestly can't wait for more twisting of reality when Allen beats mahomes in the AFC championship in Buffalo 🦬 

 

At that point Allen will be 5-2 vs mahomes since 21 with a missed fg and 13 seconds being the distance from 7-0 since 21...

 

KC fans will twist themselves into a pretzel about Allen's numbers as a rookie or something lol. Verderame will go on some ridiculous rant is my guess 

 

“Games not over!! I didn’t hear the whistle from my couch a thousand miles away!” 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

20 minutes ago, Billl said:

 

 

But let’s say that they somehow decided that the recovery wasn’t immediate/clear enough.  There would be a ten second runoff.  The Chiefs still win.  

 

I’d be very surprised if a 10 second run off still applies after an inadvertent killing of the play.
 

I am a second year HS official and that’s peaked my curiosity. I’ll have to look up the rule in both HS and NFL.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I’d be very surprised if a 10 second run off still applies after an inadvertent killing of the play.
 

I am a second year HS official and that’s peaked my curiosity. I’ll have to look up the rule in both HS and NFL.

 

10 second runoff only occurs if the clock was rolling as the offense snapped it and committed a pre-snap penalty. 

 

In this case there would not have been a runoff as the clock was not rolling. 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Here you go @Billl

NFL rule is below. Applicable parts bolded. The 10 second run off does not apply to an inadvertent whistle.
 

As for HS football, there is no 10 second run off rule at all regardless of game and clock circumstance. 

 

https://operations.nfl.com/media/24emxacq/2024-nfl-rulebook.pdf
 

Rule 7: Ball in play, dead ball, scrimmage

Section  2: Deadball
Article 1

 

(O) when an official sounds the whistle erroneously while the ball is still in play, the ball becomes dead immediately.

 

      (1) If the ball is in player possession, the team in possession may elect to put the ball in play where it has been declared dead or to replay the down.

 

       (2) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a fumble, backward pass, or illegal forward pass, the team last in possession may elect to put the ball in play at the spot where possession was lost or to replay the down.

 

      (3) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a legal forward pass, a free kick, a fair-catch kick, or a scrimmage kick, the ball is returned to the previous spot, and the down is replayed.

 

      (4) If there is a foul by either team during any of the above, and the team in possession at the time of the erroneous whistle elects not to replay the down, penalty enforcement is the same as for fouls during a run, forward pass, kick, fumble, and backward pass. If the team in possession elects to replay the down, all penalties will be disregarded, except for personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls, which will be administered prior to the replaying of the down. If the down is replayed, the game clock will be reset to the time remaining when the snap occurred, and the clock will start on the snap.

22 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

10 second runoff only occurs if the clock was rolling as the offense snapped it and committed a pre-snap penalty. 

 

In this case there would not have been a runoff as the clock was not rolling. 

 

according to the rule I just posted it would not have mattered if clock was running or stopped. There is no 10 second run off in either case after an inadvertent whistle.

[Buff the Cat]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Here you go @Billl

NFL rule is below. Applicable parts bolded. The 10 second run off does not apply to an inadvertent whistle.
 

As for HS football, there is no 10 second run off rule at all regardless of game and clock circumstance. 

 

https://operations.nfl.com/media/24emxacq/2024-nfl-rulebook.pdf
 

Rule 7: Ball in play, dead ball, scrimmage

Section  2: Deadball
Article 1

 

(O) when an official sounds the whistle erroneously while the ball is still in play, the ball becomes dead immediately.

 

      (1) If the ball is in player possession, the team in possession may elect to put the ball in play where it has been declared dead or to replay the down.

 

       (2) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a fumble, backward pass, or illegal forward pass, the team last in possession may elect to put the ball in play at the spot where possession was lost or to replay the down.

 

      (3) If the ball is a loose ball resulting from a legal forward pass, a free kick, a fair-catch kick, or a scrimmage kick, the ball is returned to the previous spot, and the down is replayed.

 

      (4) If there is a foul by either team during any of the above, and the team in possession at the time of the erroneous whistle elects not to replay the down, penalty enforcement is the same as for fouls during a run, forward pass, kick, fumble, and backward pass. If the team in possession elects to replay the down, all penalties will be disregarded, except for personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls, which will be administered prior to the replaying of the down. If the down is replayed, the game clock will be reset to the time remaining when the snap occurred, and the clock will start on the snap.

according to the rule I just posted it would not have mattered if clock was running or stopped. There is no 10 second run off in either case after an inadvertent whistle.

Well there it is, argument over. Game, set, match. 👍

[dollars 2 donuts]

22 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

And what were your thoughts last Christmas? That team’s going to win it all in a few weeks?

 

not even remotely close, because I though the same about the ‘23 Eagles as I do now about the ‘24 Chiefs, which was thr point. 
 

The clue in, or at least part of it, was in the Bills lost to them…they were a team that was winning games, but was imminently beatable and not a lot of there there.

 

Kind of the point.

Anyone seeing there there with this Chiefs team, this fall ass backwards into 11-1 Chiefs team, shouldn’t  be betting on anything.

 

[SaulGoodman]

18 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Clearly with your eyes closed.

 

 

No they tied it with a minute and some change left. After the Bills had completely shut them down the entire second half and outscored them by 2 TD’s.

 

 

Okay, so they scored with under two minutes left. So? They tied the game, yet you're acting like it was a meaningless garbage time score. It was the same situation as the KC-Carolina game. Carolina scored with almost exactly the same amount of time on the clock to tie the game. And if the Bills hadn't been bailed out by multiple flags, they'd have likely been punting to Miami with a minute left and giving them good field position, needing only a FG. How was that a convincing win?

 

 

18 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

They had legitimate reason for optimism last year.

 

KC lost several games due to dropped balls. Cleaning up drops is pretty easy. You also had Rice starting to come on strong, and the defense was truly elite. Mahomes was also Mahomes.

 

This year, the defense took a step back as of late, and there is no Rashee Rice to save the day. Mahomes also doesn’t look like Mahomes. There is also no one-thing to really pinpoint as the reason for offensive issuesc like there was last years. It’s numerous things. Offensive line is poor at the tackle position, receivers are middling, Mahomes doesn’t look like himself, etc.

 

Put simply: 2023 Chiefs had an elite defense, a surging Rashee Rice, and Mahomes who looked like normal Mahomes.

 

2023 Chiefs have no #1 WR, the defense is struggling against very bad offenses and backup QB’s, and Mahomes is throwing balls long, short, into the dirt, etc.

 

I’m not saying they can’t fix it, but I think if Reid knew what the problem was, he would have fixed it by now. I truly don’t think he has an answer.

 

Last time I checked a few weeks ago, KC's offense led the league in success rate, and they have the best 3rd down conversion rate in the NFL in over a decade. The offense hasn't been explosive, but it's usually efficient. PPG isn't a very meaningful number. Points per drive is more telling. Scoring 27 in 14 possessions isn't good. Scoring 27 in 8 drives is very good. 

 

Mahomes wasn't better last season. He has the highest completion rate of his career this year and ranks highly in all meaningful stats. Aside from throwing a few more picks than usual, he's been solid. Most importantly, clutch. His play at the end of games has been elite. 

 

It's convenient to now say it was an "easy fix" regarding the WRs. Leading up to the playoffs, the narrative was that KC's WRs were so bad that they didn't have a chance to go far. It wasn't just drops. It was players not running proper routes and not even knowing where to line up. You either don't remember last year or you're being disingenuous. But you're right...there's no Rashee Rice coming to save the day. There's Hollywood Brown, a better player than rookie Rice.

 

The offense could use a better LT and an explosive WR. Both of which are on the way. In fact, Morris has already played his last game. If you told Andy Reid that he has no reason for optimism, I'm pretty sure he'd laugh in your face. 

 

Hollywood/Hopkins/Worthy/Kelce/Gray/Smith-Schuster/Pacheco/Hunt + Humphries is far better than rookie Rice/MVS/Watson/Hardman/Pacheco/CEH/Donovan Smith. It's not even close. 

 

Now let's suppose that Watson is able to return for the postseason, and Omenihu picks up close to where he left off last year. If you think anyone will want to come to Arrowhead to face that team in January, you're kidding yourself. With or without Watson.