Raiders @ Chiefs — Black Friday — 3 PM Eastern — Prime Video

[SaulGoodman]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I’ve been a member of that forum for a decade. This is the worst i’ve seen it in the Mahomes era.

 

Last year, you guys lost some games and looked bad at times, but there were easy reason for optimism. For example - tons and tons of dropped passes. Those are easy to clean up.

 

An you had an elite defense.

 

Right now - the defense is getting gashed by garbage teams like the Panthers and there is no easy fix for the offense.

The Chiefs are simply not a good team right now.

 

An 11-1 team that's getting key players back from injury and just signed a player that addresses their biggest weakness has no reason to be optimistic? Lol. If you say so. 

[Billl]

14 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

The ref was signaling false start, which implies a whistle.  How would that be inadvertent?

 

Why did zero refs signal a fumble recovery by the Chiefs?  Does that seem odd at all to you?

He didn’t signal a false start.  He signaled an illegal formation.  It’s the same arm motion, but he’d have thrown the flag before the snap and blown the whistle if it had been a false start.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Bowers was moving at the time of the snap. He was waving his arms telling the outside wr to back off the line. 

 

I guess the question is, if there's an illegal shift and at the same time a wr on the line is moving at the time of the snap, is that not also a false start? 

The answer is no.  The WR is allowed to motion, thus it isn’t a false start.  It was an illegal shift because other players were still getting into formation when his motion started.  Because of this, the entire team has to get set for a full second before the ball is snapped.  The WR didn’t, so it was an illegal shift.  O’Connell recognized this and was watching his WR which is why he hadn’t called for the snap.  He was waiting for the WR to get set, but the C snapped it anyway.  AOC wasn’t ready for the ball (on account of watching his WR), and there was a fumble.

Edited November 30 by Billl

[Motorin']

Just now, Billl said:

He didn’t signal a false start.  He signaled an illegal formation.  It’s the same arm motion, but he’d have thrown the flag before the snap and blown the whistle if it had been a false start.

 

 

The answer is no.  The WR is allowed to motion, thus it isn’t a false start.  It was an illegal shift because other players were still getting into formation when his motion started.  Because of this, the entire team has to get set for a full second before the ball is snapped.  The WR didn’t, so it was an illegal shift.  O’Connell recognized this and was watching his WR which is why he hadn’t called for the snap.  He was waiting for the WR to get set, but the C snapped it anyway.  AOC wasn’t ready for the ball (on account of watching his WR), and there was a fumble.

He didn’t signal a false start.  He signaled an illegal formation.  It’s the same arm motion, but he’d have thrown the flag before the snap and blown the whistle if it had been a false start.

 

 

The answer is no.  The WR is allowed to motion, thus it isn’t a false start.  It was an illegal shift because other players were still getting into formation when his motion started.  Because of this, the entire team has to get set for a full second before the ball is snapped.  The WR didn’t, so it was an illegal shift.  O’Connell recognized this and was watching his WR which is why he hadn’t called for the snap.  He was waiting for the WR to get set, but the C snapped it anyway.  AOC wasn’t ready for the ball (on account of watching his WR), and there was a fumble.

So a TE lined up in the slot doing jumping jacks isn't a false start? 

[Einstein]

24 minutes ago, Billl said:

The ref didn’t blow a whistle.  Even if he did, there was a clear and obvious recovery of the fumble.  The funny part of the fan fiction above is that, if they had ruled the play dead due to an inadvertent whistle, the game would have ended right then and there and the same people complaining that the officials got it right would be complaining that they got it wrong.  An inadvertent whistle during a live ball requires a 10 second runoff, and that would have ended the game.

 

So you’re saying the Raiders would have been screwed regardless and the Chiefs would have been lucky again to barely beat a garbage team?

[Billl]

Just now, Motorin' said:

So a TE lined up in the slot doing jumping jacks isn't a false start? 

Correct, it’s not.  He’s allowed to go in motion, do jumping jacks, or get down on his hands and knees and bark like a dog.  If the rest of the team was set when he did so, it’s completely legal.  If they weren’t, it’s illegal motion.  Unless he runs forward across the LOS, it’s not a false start and the play continues.

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

So you’re saying the Raiders would have been screwed regardless and the Chiefs would have been lucky again to barely beat a garbage team?

Yeah, they would have been screwed either way.  When you snap the ball while your QB isn’t looking for the snap, you’re screwed.

 

Vegas literally had an illegal shift, an illegal formation, and lost a fumble on the same play yet people here have convinced themselves that the officials should have invented some bizarre reason to reward them for it.  

[folz]

11 minutes ago, Billl said:

He didn’t signal a false start.  He signaled an illegal formation.  It’s the same arm motion, but he’d have thrown the flag before the snap and blown the whistle if it had been a false start.

Did you even read my post? He was obviously calling a false start not illegal formation. It’s the only thing that makes sense when you weigh in everything that was happening.

[Einstein]

6 minutes ago, Billl said:

Correct, it’s not.  He’s allowed to go in motion, do jumping jacks, or get down on his hands and knees and bark like a dog.  If the rest of the team was set when he did so, it’s completely legal.  If they weren’t, it’s illegal motion.  Unless he runs forward across the LOS, it’s not a false start and the play continues.

Yeah, they would have been screwed either way.  When you snap the ball while your QB isn’t looking for the snap, you’re screwed.

 

Vegas literally had an illegal shift, an illegal formation, and lost a fumble on the same play yet people here have convinced themselves that the officials should have invented some bizarre reason to reward them for it.  

 

Definitely not.

 

We know that the ref was calling a false start, and not an illegal formation, because illegal formations don’t end the play. False starts do. 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, folz said:

Did you even read my post? He was obviously calling a false start not illegal formation. It’s the only thing that makes sense when you weigh in everything that was happening.

 

Correct.

He was calling false start. 
 

Not only do illegal formations not end the play  (and the ref clearly ran on the field ending the play), but there was no illegal formation to be seen. Just illegal motion.

[4merper4mer]

24 minutes ago, Billl said:

He didn’t signal a false start.  He signaled an illegal formation.  It’s the same arm motion, but he’d have thrown the flag before the snap and blown the whistle if it had been a false start.

 

 

The answer is no.  The WR is allowed to motion, thus it isn’t a false start.  It was an illegal shift because other players were still getting into formation when his motion started.  Because of this, the entire team has to get set for a full second before the ball is snapped.  The WR didn’t, so it was an illegal shift.  O’Connell recognized this and was watching his WR which is why he hadn’t called for the snap.  He was waiting for the WR to get set, but the C snapped it anyway.  AOC wasn’t ready for the ball (on account of watching his WR), and there was a fumble.

1. Why did you not answer my question on the refs not signaling Chiefs ball?

2.  If someone shifted illegally why did the ref not identify that player with a jersey number?

3.  Why did the side judge run in so quickly with his whistle in his mouth if it was illegal formation and not false start?  
 

 

[Billl]

23 minutes ago, folz said:

Did you even read my post? He was obviously calling a false start not illegal formation. It’s the only thing that makes sense when you weigh in everything that was happening.

 

 

Here’s the play.  The sound is clear as a bell.  Had he been calling a false start, he’d have thrown the flag before the snap and blown the whistle.  He didn’t do either of those things, though.  Instead, he waited to throw the flag until after the snap (because it can’t be an illegal formation or illegal shift until after the ball is snapped) and didn’t blow the whistle until the play was over.

 

There was no false start committed.  There was no false start called.  There was an illegal formation committed (nullified by it being an illegal shift).  There was an illegal formation signaled.  In what universe is the only thing that makes sense the notion that it was a false start.

 

Option A:  The Raiders committed an illegal shift.  The Raiders didn’t commit a false start.  The refs didn’t call a false start.  The refs called an illegal shift and let the play continue as it would when an illegal shift is committed.

 

Option B:  The Raiders committed an illegal shift, but the refs didn’t call the illegal shift.  The Raiders didn’t commit a false start, but the refs did call a false start while also failing to blow the play dead.  Then the refs somehow accidentally got the call correct anyway.

 

Option A seems to make a little more sense to me.

Edited November 30 by Billl

[SaulGoodman]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

So you’re saying the Raiders would have been screwed regardless and the Chiefs would have been lucky again to barely beat a garbage team?

 

The Bills were lucky to beat the Jets and Dolphins, and looked like a bad team vs Baltimore and Houston. Did you write off their playoff chances after those games?

 

These are all NFL teams, and KC gets everybody's best shot. Especially within the division. A team like the Raiders will always be far more excited to take on the Chiefs than vice versa. 

 

What nobody mentions is that Bryce Young and Aidan O'Connell both played great games. They were consistently dropping dimes and their receivers were making tough catches. The KC defense deserves some blame for that, but they both looked as good as any QB has looked against the Chiefs all year. 

[4merper4mer]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

 

 

Here’s the play.  The sound is clear as a bell.  Had he been calling a false start, he’d have thrown the flag before the snap and blown the whistle.  He didn’t do either of those things, though.  Instead, he waited to throw the flag until after the snap (because it can’t be an illegal formation or illegal shift until after the ball is snapped) and didn’t blow the whistle until the play was over.

 

There was no false start committed.  There was no false start called.  There was an illegal formation committed (nullified by it being an illegal shift).  There was an illegal formation signaled.  In what universe is the only thing that makes sense the notion that it was a false start.

 

Option A:  The Raiders committed an illegal shift.  The Raiders didn’t commit a false start.  The refs didn’t call a false start.  The refs called an illegal shift and let the play continue as it would when an illegal shift is committed.

 

Option B:  The Raiders committed an illegal shift, but the refs didn’t call the illegal shift.  The Raiders didn’t commit a false start, but the refs did call a false start while also failing to blow the play dead.  Then the refs somehow accidentally got the call correct anyway.

 

Option A seems to make a little more sense to me.

The ref immediately throws the flag very high in the air and it takes a while to land.  He runs into the field while players are still running around.  Why?

[Billl]

1 minute ago, 4merper4mer said:

1. Why did you not answer my question on the refs not signaling Chiefs ball?

2.  If someone shifted illegally why did the ref not identify that player with a jersey number?

3.  Why did the side judge run in so quickly with his whistle in his mouth if it was illegal formation and not false start?  
 

 

1.  The refs literally awarded the ball to the Chiefs.  Multiple officials threw flags, so they had to confer to sort everything out before doing so.  (“Did you blow the play dead?”  “No, I called an illegal formation, did you blow the play dead?”  “No, I called an illegal shift.”  “Okay, then it’s a fumble.”)

2.  Illegal shifts aren’t on a specific player.  It was a penalty on literally all 11 players because they were all in motion before everyone got set.

3.  He ran in because there was a penalty.  Why do you think he didn’t blow that whistle that was in his mouth?

[Billl]

8 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

The ref immediately throws the flag very high in the air and it takes a while to land.  He runs into the field while players are still running around.  Why?

Immediately after what?  Immediately after the ball was snapped…because illegal formations don’t occur until immediately after the ball is snapped.  If it had been a false start, the flag would have been thrown before the ball was snapped and a whistle would have been blown.

 

There was no false start.  Nobody is even claiming that anyone committed a false start.  You’re literally complaining that the officials should have got the call wrong thus rewarding the Raiders for committing penalties, snapping the ball when the QB wasn’t ready, and losing a fumble.  

 

Not only that, but you’re saying they should have retro-actively declared the play had been blown dead even though no whistle was blown.

Edited November 30 by Billl

[4merper4mer]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

1.  The refs literally awarded the ball to the Chiefs.  Multiple officials threw flags, so they had to confer to sort everything out before doing so.  (“Did you blow the play dead?”  “No, I called an illegal formation, did you blow the play dead?”  “No, I called an illegal shift.”  “Okay, then it’s a fumble.”)

2.  Illegal shifts aren’t on a specific player.  It was a penalty on literally all 11 players because they were all in motion before everyone got set.

3.  He ran in because there was a penalty.  Why do you think he didn’t blow that whistle that was in his mouth?

1. Not one ref signaled “first down Chiefs” which is standard practice on a recovered fumble.

2. Shift is a verb implying motion.  Someone needs to be shifting.  Formation and shift are different things.

3.  Watch a random game tomorrow and see if the side judge runs into an ongoing play without calling the play dead because he called Offside, illegal motion or illegal shift or if the refs waits for the play to be over.  Please report back if you find one.  Spoiler alert: you won’t.

[Einstein]

7 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

The Bills were lucky to beat the Jets and Dolphins

 

No they weren’t. 

 

Bills blew the doors of the Dolphins - in Miami. Then outscored the Dolphins 21-7 in the second half in Buffalo until Miami got a TD with a minute left.

 

Only reason the Jets game looked close was because of a freaking Hail Mary touchdown lol.

 

7 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Did you write off their playoff chances after those games?

 

 

No one is writing off KC’s chances in the playoffs. We’re saying like they look like garbage right now. And we were saying the Bills looked like garbage after Balt/Houston.

8 minutes ago, Billl said:

1.  The refs literally awarded the ball to the Chiefs.  Multiple officials threw flags, so they had to confer to sort everything out before doing so.  (“Did you blow the play dead?”  “No, I called an illegal formation, did you blow the play dead?”  “No, I called an illegal shift.”  “Okay, then it’s a fumble.”)

 

 

Except this never happened.

 

No one called illegal formation.

 

He called false start and blew the play dead.

[Billl]

Just now, 4merper4mer said:

1. Not one ref signaled “first down Chiefs” which is standard practice on a recovered fumble.

2. Shift is a verb implying motion.  Someone needs to be shifting.  Formation and shift are different things.

3.  Watch a random game tomorrow and see if the side judge runs into an ongoing play without calling the play dead because he called Offside, illegal motion or illegal shift or if the refs waits for the play to be over.  Please report back if you find one.  Spoiler alert: you won’t.

You don’t know the rules.  More importantly, you don’t care to know them.  For those who do care, I’ll explain them.

 

An illegal shift occurs when multiple offensive players are in motion at the same time and all 11 players don’t reset simultaneously for at least one second prior to the snap.  That happened.

 

An illegal formation occurs when there aren’t 7 players on the LOS, and/or there aren’t eligible receivers on both sides of the LOS.  Also, the eligible receivers who aren’t on the end of the line can’t be on the LOS.  That also happened.

 

HOWEVER, the illegal shift happened prior to the illegal formation, so it was called instead (even though both fouls occurred).  In either situation, the play continues and the defense has the option of accepting a 5 yard penalty or declining it and accepting the result of the play.  

6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Except this never happened.

 

No one called illegal formation.

 

He called false start and blew the play dead.

Show me where a false start was called.  Share the audio of the play being blown dead.  Neither happened.  That’s why I keep posting the video with audio and everyone arguing with me keeps pointing to a still shot taken 3 seconds after the play ended.

[Einstein]

16 minutes ago, Billl said:

Show me where a false start was called.  Share the audio of the play being blown dead.  Neither happened.  That’s why I keep posting the video with audio and everyone arguing with me keeps pointing to a still shot taken 3 seconds after the play ended.

 

Im not sure what NFL you’ve been watching, but we don’t have clear audio of the field. Otherwise we would hear every audible, grunt, groan, referee conversation, player interaction and more.

 

What we do see is the ref throwing a flag and then IMMEDIATELY running onto the field while signaling a false start and blowing the play dead.

 

The ref was running onto the field, blowing the play dead, before the KC player even recovered it. Why? Because false starts end the play.

 

If he was signaling illegal formation, he would have thrown the flag and stayed on the side of the field, because illegal formation allows the play to go on.

 

The fact that you’re arguing this when the evidence is so clear is mind boggling.

 

Edited November 30 by Einstein

[4merper4mer]

7 minutes ago, Billl said:

You don’t know the rules.  More importantly, you don’t care to know them.  For those who do care, I’ll explain them.

 

An illegal shift occurs when multiple offensive players are in motion at the same time and all 11 players don’t reset simultaneously for at least one second prior to the snap.  That happened.

 

An illegal formation occurs when there aren’t 7 players on the LOS, and/or there aren’t eligible receivers on both sides of the LOS.  Also, the eligible receivers who aren’t on the end of the line can’t be on the LOS.  That also happened.

 

HOWEVER, the illegal shift happened prior to the illegal formation, so it was called instead (even though both fouls occurred).  In either situation, the play continues and the defense has the option of accepting a 5 yard penalty or declining it and accepting the result of the play.  

Show me where a false start was called.  Share the audio of the play being blown dead.  Neither happened.  That’s why I keep posting the video with audio and everyone arguing with me keeps pointing to a still shot taken 3 seconds after the play ended.

Are you saying that there isn’t anyone shifting during an illegal shift or that their numbers are blurry to the refs?  Let’s try the random game challenge again.  Watch one tomorrow.  Illegal shift will be called.  See if they call out a number or position.  Spoiler alert: They will.

[SaulGoodman]

21 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

No they weren’t. 

 

Bills blew the doors of the Dolphins - in Miami. Then outscored the Dolphins 21-7 in the second half in Buffalo until Miami got a TD with a minute left.

 

Only reason the Jets game looked close was because of a freaking Hail Mary touchdown lol.

 

I watched those games. The Jets squandered numerous golden opportunities to win that game and repeatedly shot themselves in the foot. And the Dolphins tied the game w/ 4:40 left. Buffalo needed a late FG to win. On that last drive, they were facing 3rd and 14 at their own 26 and two straight penalties on Miami gave them a first down. So yeah, they were pretty fortunate there. 

 

For a fanbase that rants/raves about KC allegedly getting calls, Buffalo sure seems to draw a lot of flags at critical moments. 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

 

No one is writing off KC’s chances in the playoffs. We’re saying like they look like garbage right now. And we were saying the Bills looked like garbage after Balt/Houston.

 

 

Saying they look like garbage late in the year and don't have reason for optimism isn't writing them off? 

 

The Bills were down 35-10 after three quarters in one game and completed 30% of their passes in the other. That's a little different than winning a close game. 

Edited November 30 by SaulGoodman

[Einstein]

9 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

I watched those games.

 

Clearly with your eyes closed.

 

9 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Dolphins tied the game w/ 4:40 left. Buffalo needed a late FG to win.

 

No they tied it with a minute and some change left. After the Bills had completely shut them down the entire second half and outscored them by 2 TD’s.

 

 

9 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Saying they look like garbage late in the year and don't have reason for optimism isn't writing them off? 

 

They had legitimate reason for optimism last year.

 

KC lost several games due to dropped balls. Cleaning up drops is pretty easy. You also had Rice starting to come on strong, and the defense was truly elite. Mahomes was also Mahomes.

 

This year, the defense took a step back as of late, and there is no Rashee Rice to save the day. Mahomes also doesn’t look like Mahomes. There is also no one-thing to really pinpoint as the reason for offensive issuesc like there was last years. It’s numerous things. Offensive line is poor at the tackle position, receivers are middling, Mahomes doesn’t look like himself, etc.

 

Put simply: 2023 Chiefs had an elite defense, a surging Rashee Rice, and Mahomes who looked like normal Mahomes.

 

2023 Chiefs have no #1 WR, the defense is struggling against very bad offenses and backup QB’s, and Mahomes is throwing balls long, short, into the dirt, etc.

 

I’m not saying they can’t fix it, but I think if Reid knew what the problem was, he would have fixed it by now. I truly don’t think he has an answer.

 

Also - and this is very important - the 2023 Chiefs wouldn’t have that ring if they played a healthy Bills team in the playoffs. You only made it past Buffalo because you played the Bills backup defense. Otherwise, it would have been a divisional round exit.

And still barley squeeked out a win.