MVP TROPHY: who cares the most ?

[Billznut]

3 hours ago, zow2 said:

Starting to hear more media talk about breaking away from the traditional QB and giving MVP to Saquan.  Of course they would do that during a season Allen is primed to win it over the other QB competition. 

Agreed but luckily there is also an offensive player of the year award and quite often that goes to the best RB or WR in a particular year since MVP almost always goes to a QB. So I’m still hoping Allen gets his MVP and Saquon can have the offensive player of the year. 

[Chicken Boo]

I would respect the award more if they didn't just hand it to a QB every year.  

 

There isn't a player in the league playing better football than Saquon Barkley right now.  

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

I would respect the award more if they didn't just hand it to a QB every year.  

 

There isn't a player in the league playing better football than Saquon Barkley right now.  

 

Well that's why it's not the Best Player award, it's the Most Valuable Player award. A QB should and will always win. Because if you take Barkley off the Eagles they probably still have the same number of wins, but if you take Allen off the Bills we probably have like 4 wins. Barkley will win OPOY which is what he deserves.

[H2o]

I think it's definitely the fan base. I don't think the organization or Josh are all that worried about it. I think both the organization and Josh are pretty much DB or bust, but I do think Josh uses anything he feels as a "slight" as fuel for the fire. 

[Chicken Boo]

42 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Well that's why it's not the Best Player award, it's the Most Valuable Player award. A QB should and will always win. Because if you take Barkley off the Eagles they probably still have the same number of wins, but if you take Allen off the Bills we probably have like 4 wins. Barkley will win OPOY which is what he deserves.

 

The Eagles still have the same number of wins without Barkley's 1392 rushing yards?

 

That's a wild take.  

Edited November 26 by Chicken Boo

[Fleezoid]

Should have had one more option in there......Rex Ryan.

[HappyDays]

17 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

The Eagles still have the same number of wins without Barkely's 1392 rushing yards?

 

That's a wild take.  

 

That's not how it works. You don't take away all his rushing yards, you have to estimate how many rushing yards above replacement level he has earned. And then you have to determine if those extra rushing yards earned purely by Barkley's own skills are worth any additional wins.

 

As a point of comparison, Barkley this year is at 6.2 YPC. D'Andre Swift last year in the same offense was at 4.6 YPC. So yes Barkley represents a clear improvement, but the impact of an extra 1.6 YPC is not equivalent to the impact of an average QB versus an elite QB. Not even close. As for how many extra wins that additional YPC leads to, maybe 1 over the course of a season? 2 at most?

 

Barkley himself is evidence of what I'm saying. In his previous three seasons in a crappy Giants offense he averaged 4.1 YPC - worse than what Swift did in the Eagles offense last year.

 

A non-QB should never be the MVP.

 

Edited November 26 by HappyDays

[Kelly to Allen]

The MVP conversation is just tiresome. If Allen just wins out and plays avg to solid football he should win it. But again the ap has broken so much precedent when it comes to MVP and all pro who knows. The pro bowl doesn't even make sense 

 

We need objective criteria like statistical thresholds or you can't win MVP if you can't even win your division. Their needs to be historical precedent.

 

It used to be you don't win a second MVP until you won a ring etc

 

 

It's all just narrative and silly.

 

The chiefs had by far the most dominant CB play last year and I don't think either made the pro bowl lol. But McDuffie did make all pro which he deserved. Sneed was incredible last year and didn't get a pro bowl or all pro. Trey smith was the most dominant guard in the NFL last year, was integral in the KC playoff run. No awards nothing....It makes no sense 

Edited November 26 by Kelly to Allen

[Chicken Boo]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's not how it works. You don't take away all his rushing yards, you have to estimate how many rushing yards above replacement level he has earned. And then you have to determine if those extra rushing yards earned purely by Barkley's own skills are worth any additional wins.

 

As a point of comparison, Barkley this year is at 6.2 YPC. D'Andre Swift last year in the same offense was at 4.6 YPC. So yes Barkley represents a clear improvement, but the impact of an extra 1.6 YPC is not equivalent to the impact of an average QB versus an elite QB. Not even close. As for how many extra wins that additional YPC leads to, maybe 1 over the course of a season? 2 at most?

 

Barkley himself is evidence of what I'm saying. In his previous three seasons in a crappy Giants offense he averaged 4.1 YPC - worse than what Swift did in the Eagles offense last year.

 

A non-QB should never be the MVP.

 

 

Ridiculous.  That's not how it works either. 

 

You don't look at Swift's 4.6ypc and automatically project him to have 1500 yards rushing if he were to get 320+ carries.  

 

Let's look at the attention Saquon draws to open up the Eagle offense.  How about his pass protection?  There are variables here.  

 

Kelly did not deserve MVP over Thurman in '91.  You known why?  He wasn't the best player or most impactful to the '91 Bills' success.  The team ran through Thurman.  

[Kelly to Allen]

5 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

I would respect the award more if they didn't just hand it to a QB every year.  

 

There isn't a player in the league playing better football than Saquon Barkley right now.  

Stop. The eagles would still be good without Barkley. 

 

This is not possible if you take away Allen, Mahomes, Lamar from their team. It's a QB award. They have opoy for a reason 

Edited November 26 by Kelly to Allen

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

Let's look at the attention Saquon draws to open up the Eagle offense.  How about his pass protection?  There are variables here.  

 

The attention AJ Brown and Davonta Smith command opens up Barkley's rushing. You have the relationship backwards.

 

2 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

Kelly did not deserve MVP over Thurman in '91.  You known why?  He wasn't the best player or most impactful to the '91 Bills' success.  The team ran through Thurman.  

 

It isn't the 90s.

 

I'm surprised this is even a debate right now. Respectfully, you're on your own on this one.

[Kelly to Allen]

Kelly in 91 sat out like two games. He was on pace for 40 passing touchdowns and 4000 yds which was incredible back then. 

 

The 91 bills offense was awesome 😎 

[The Wiz]

 

[LABILLBACKER]

On 11/25/2024 at 7:21 AM, BillsPride12 said:

He will never come out and publicly say it but I am sure deep down Josh wants to earn an MVP.  You can't tell me winning the Most Valuable Player award at the highest level of your sport wouldn't mean anything to him

 

But I feel like it's something that would also mean a lot to the fans as well.  We haven't had an MVP winner since 1991.  All the suffering through the drought years with B level players.  It would definitely mean something

Completely agree...he deserved it at least one of those Aaron years and his numbers last year blew away Lamar...technically he has 2 legit int's this year.

[BillsPride12]

Interesting tidbit that I just learned last weekend that I really had no clue and thought was interesting but not enough to start its own thread on but actually fits in pretty well with this discussion...

 

I think we all know Thurman was the MVP in 1991 but does anybody know who had the 2nd most MVP votes that year?

 

Jim Kelly...thought that was interesting and puts some things in perspective for the crowd that thinks he sucked or was overrated.  In his prime he was damn good

[Sierra Foothills]

On 11/25/2024 at 4:01 AM, Italian Bills said:

It seems that every year the fanbase is who care the most about Josh winning it, more than Josh himself and more

than the Bills organization.

 

What you think ? 

 

My guesses:

 

1) Bills Mafia: The fanbase cares the most, but in large part because of our love for Josh and our desire to see him win the accolade that he has been stupidly denied.

 

2) The Bills organization: The Bills care for the reason above, but also because anything that brings greater glory to the organization also brings more money to the organization.

 

3) The Media: The nature of media is that they need material for stories. The MVP race is a good source for material.

 

4) Josh: He would like the validation that the award would bring... and everyone likes recognition and affirmation of their performance. That said, I think Josh cares a helluva lot more about winning a Super Bowl for the team and the community.

 

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Well that's why it's not the Best Player award, it's the Most Valuable Player award. A QB should and will always win. Because if you take Barkley off the Eagles they probably still have the same number of wins, but if you take Allen off the Bills we probably have like 4 wins. Barkley will win OPOY which is what he deserves.

 

I agree with your main point though I think you overstate your argument.

 

[Chicken Boo]

5 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Stop. The eagles would still be good without Barkley. 

 

This is not possible if you take away Allen, Mahomes, Lamar from their team. It's a QB award. They have opoy for a reason 

 

No, you stop.  Stop pretending like your eyes aren't seeing what they're seeing.  

 

With Barkley the Eagles are a Super Bowl contender.  Without him, not so much.

 

He's the best player and the biggest threat on that team.  

 

There was chatter about Sirianni getting the axe before they acquired Saquon.  He has re-opened their window.  

 

 

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The attention AJ Brown and Davonta Smith command opens up Barkley's rushing. You have the relationship backwards.

 

 

It isn't the 90s.

 

I'm surprised this is even a debate right now. Respectfully, you're on your own on this one.

 

 

Football is football.  Your line of thinking is why the Giants are in the position they're in.  

 

I'm a fan of Jared Goff, but nobody is game-planning to stop Jared Goff when they face the Lions.

 

Barkley, at this pace, will beat out Josh for MVP, but there's still a lot of football to be played.  

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

Your line of thinking is why the Giants are in the position they're in.  

 

C'mon man. The Giants are in the position they're in because they haven't got the QB right. Not because they didn't re-sign a 4.1 YPC RB. James Cook has had a higher YPC than that every year of his career and the Bills would be crazy to re-sign him at the end of his rookie deal. Barkley was a luxury piece for an offense that already had ridiculous talent in place. He is the OPOY for sure, no question. He is not in the top 20 of MVP. He isn't even the MVP of his own offense.

[Ya Digg?]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

C'mon man. The Giants are in the position they're in because they haven't got the QB right. Not because they didn't re-sign a 4.1 YPC RB. James Cook has had a higher YPC than that every year of his career and the Bills would be crazy to re-sign him at the end of his rookie deal. Barkley was a luxury piece for an offense that already had ridiculous talent in place. He is the OPOY for sure, no question. He is not in the top 20 of MVP. He isn't even the MVP of his own offense.

I do absolutely agree with most of what you’re saying, but I don’t agree at all with your last 2 sentences 

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

I do absolutely agree with most of what you’re saying, but I don’t agree at all with your last 2 sentences 

 

Jalen Hurts, AJ Brown, and Jordan Mailata, in that order, are more valuable than Barkley in that offense. I might put Davonta Smith ahead of him too. "Valuable" isn't about how good the player is relative to his peers, it's about how much a drop off to a replacement level player would impact the team.

 

I'm not saying Barkley hasn't been outstanding this year or that he isn't important to that offense. He just plays an inherently devalued position. Maybe the MVP voters will give it to him, it's not like there's any kind of thought put into that process, but by the pure definition of MVP no RB should come close to that conversation.