These Amari Cooper quotes after the Chiefs game…it really IS special playing here…

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

I didn’t say the master plan was to trade for a guy like cooper…… but put words into my mouth and pretend that I said that, per usual.  I said trading for a WR was always waiting in the wings.  I never said trading for a WR1 was always the plan either.  I said trading for “a WR”.  While I didn’t say it, I meant a boundary WR that can make plays outside.  I didn’t insinuate in any manner that Beane had planned on trading for a WR1.  

 

Cooper was the cheapest- we got him.  There were other options- Hopkins, Slayton (I had my eye on him since the day we traded Diggs).   
 

end results- beane landed a WR1.  One with little cap hit.  One that every other team in the league could’ve traded for…. But didn’t because Beane got him.  But cry about the offseason.  The offseason in which he built a roster that is currently 9-2 and beat the chiefs again. 

 

which WR1 did you want him to sign post Diggs trade?  

I wanted him to sign Darnell Mooney pre and post Diggs trade. You’re welcome to go look it up.

 

I am glad Beane made the call to trade for Cooper. It was a great deal and he gets credit for it. It was also an obvious need in August, much to the chagrin of the usual suspects who are acting like it was part of Beane’s idea to address the position from the start (most of whom were arguing all offseason that the WR’s were fine, that little irony shouldn’t be lost on anyone.)

 

Bottom line, I don’t believe Beane “planned” to trade for any WR. I think he misjudged the room. I think he was wrong and quickly rectified his mistake. That happens all the time, but he was still wrong, and the folks who thought he was right were wrong as well.

 

He’s still an NFL GM. He knows a lot of football but he can be wrong. He can also be right about a guy like Bernard, who I think virtually everyone on the board hated. We won’t turn into stone if we admit the WR group in August wasn’t up to snuff.

[Matt_In_NH]

18 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I'm right there with you hoping the FO values top tier WRs.

I would like them to re-sign Cooper.  However I think there is a general overall over valuing of WR's.  NFL teams do it, fans do it, the morning WGR show does it more than anyone.  In fact their talking point this week was how the Bills will have the best set of weapons of the AFC playoff teams....which goes against everything they have been lobbying for.  They even admitted two probably non playoff teams, the Bengals and Dolphins would have better weapons but they are not making the playoffs.  Is that not at least some level of evidence that that is not the best/only way to build a winner?

[Einstein's Dog]

29 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I would like them to re-sign Cooper.  However I think there is a general overall over valuing of WR's.  NFL teams do it, fans do it, the morning WGR show does it more than anyone.  In fact their talking point this week was how the Bills will have the best set of weapons of the AFC playoff teams....which goes against everything they have been lobbying for.  They even admitted two probably non playoff teams, the Bengals and Dolphins would have better weapons but they are not making the playoffs.  Is that not at least some level of evidence that that is not the best/only way to build a winner?

I agree it is tough to get value on WRs.  The contracts seem to be getting over the top - J Jeff/St Brown/T Hill getting into the $50M range seems too much.

 

But I also believe the Bills O really goes up a level with a top tier WR.  Having an A Cooper that defenses need to account for opens up the hands crew underneath, Shakir/Kincaid/Cook.

[HardyBoy]

On 11/23/2024 at 12:05 AM, Special K said:

Can't wait to see Cooper, Coleman, Kincaid, Shakir and a healthy Samuel on the field at the same time.....that's an arsenal that Josh Allen can lead all the way to the Superb Owl!!

 

Go Bills!!

 

I want a Superb Owl so freaking bad now!!!

[BADOLBILZ]

56 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I wanted him to sign Darnell Mooney pre and post Diggs trade. You’re welcome to go look it up.

 

I am glad Beane made the call to trade for Cooper. It was a great deal and he gets credit for it. It was also an obvious need in August, much to the chagrin of the usual suspects who are acting like it was part of Beane’s idea to address the position from the start (most of whom were arguing all offseason that the WR’s were fine, that little irony shouldn’t be lost on anyone.)

 

Bottom line, I don’t believe Beane “planned” to trade for any WR. I think he misjudged the room. I think he was wrong and quickly rectified his mistake. That happens all the time, but he was still wrong, and the folks who thought he was right were wrong as well.

 

He’s still an NFL GM. He knows a lot of football but he can be wrong. He can also be right about a guy like Bernard, who I think virtually everyone on the board hated. We won’t turn into stone if we admit the WR group in August wasn’t up to snuff.

 

 

The people who NOW think that trading for a WR1 at midseason was the plan all along(despite paying MVS and believing in Chase Claypool) presume that Beane knew that teams with veteran, pending free agent type veteran WR1's were definitely going to be in sell mode in October.    You can't predict that.    Cincy has been buried in the playoff race all season and they were never going to trade Higgins or Chase before the deadline.   Cleveland made the playoffs last year and Vegas had them at 8.5W for over under.   I can go on.   It very well could have turned out like the trade deadlines where there were so few options that Beane couldn't get his man.

 

But as I said this summer........the thing I knew for certain about this WR corps was that Beane would be desperately looking to trade for a WR1 type in October.   It was an absolute no doubter.

[Simon]

16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The people who NOW think that trading for a WR1 at midseason was the plan all along(despite paying MVS and believing in Chase Claypool) presume that Beane knew that teams with veteran, pending free agent type veteran WR1's were definitely going to be in sell mode in October.    You can't predict that.    Cincy has been buried in the playoff race all season and they were never going to trade Higgins or Chase before the deadline.   Cleveland made the playoffs last year and Vegas had them at 8.5W for over under.   I can go on.   It very well could have turned out like the trade deadlines where there were so few options that Beane couldn't get his man.

 

But as I said this summer........the thing I knew for certain about this WR corps was that Beane would be desperately looking to trade for a WR1 type in October.   It was an absolute no doubter.

 

I'll never understand the MVS foolishness; that was Kelvin Benjamin level dumbassery right there. Claypool, as a legit talent possibly realizing this was his last chance to make real money in this league was a viable plan B, imo.

As for October sellers, it doesn't take a huge leap of faith to believe that Will Levis, Gardner Minshew and Destupid Watson were going to have their teams in position to sell assets before the deadline.

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, Simon said:

 

Have you considered the possibility that he was very well aware that quality veteran outside WRs on bad teams were going to be available before the trade deadline this year and made a conscientious decision that adding one of them was smarter than spending limited FA money on a lesser talent in the offseason?

I think that he's a good enough GM that he has his finger on the pulse of the league and the efficient manner in which they've successfully dealt with the WR issue this year is evidence of that.

Of course I considered that as him trying to acquire an outside veteran #1WR  before the trade deadline was the easiest prediction of the off-season.  The key word is "trying."  There's no guarantee that one or more would become available so bad planning on his part.

[Dr. Who]

4 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Of course I considered that as him trying to acquire an outside veteran #1WR  before the trade deadline was the easiest prediction of the off-season.  The key word is "trying."  There's no guarantee that one or more would become available so bad planning on his part.

At best, Beane gambled and got lucky. Good fortune is also an inevitable part of success.

[Doc Brown]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

At best, Beane gambled and got lucky. Good fortune is also an inevitable part of success.

Do wizards rely on luck?  I kid.  He's obviously a very good GM but I'm not trying to twist myself into a pretzel trying to defend him trading Diggs without a concrete #1 outside WR plan going into this season.

Edited November 24 by Doc Brown

[PoundingDog]

4 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I also believe the Bills O really goes up a level with a top tier WR.

Of course they do. That’s just obvious. The question is how to get that #1 receiver? I believe in drafting your own! So you get 3-4years of cheap #1wr service. Imagine the bills drafted Jefferson instead of traded for Diggs! 

[Einstein's Dog]

3 hours ago, PoundingDog said:

Of course they do. That’s just obvious. The question is how to get that #1 receiver? I believe in drafting your own! So you get 3-4years of cheap #1wr service. Imagine the bills drafted Jefferson instead of traded for Diggs! 

A rookie doesn't do it.  The dreaft is generallhy for the future.  For next year drafting for a WR will not fill the void of A Cooper.

4 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

At best, Beane gambled and got lucky. Good fortune is also an inevitable part of success.

No, they didn't get lucky, they just avoided bad luck. 

 

The odds of one of Tenn (DHop), the Raiders (D Adams), Tampa (Godwin), Denver (Jeudy), Seattle (DK Metcalf). Rams (C Kupp), or Cleveland (A Cooper) to be out of it by the deadline were heavily in Beane's favor.

 

Of course this could have been the plan, it is what happened!  

[PoundingDog]

13 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

A rookie doesn't do it.  The dreaft is generallhy for the future.  For next year drafting for a WR will not fill the void of A Cooper.

Really? What’s Justin Jefferson’s rookie season like? How’s rams rookie wr last year performed? You gotta have faith in your evaluation. And then if you really need to, go the trade route like this year. 

[Einstein's Dog]

2 minutes ago, PoundingDog said:

Really? What’s Justin Jefferson’s rookie season like? How’s rams rookie wr last year performed? You gotta have faith in your evaluation. And then if you really need to, go the trade route like this year. 

Bringing up a few exceptions does not invalidate the overall statement that relying on the draft is not a solid plan to fill the A Cooper position.  Many, many more fail to produce.  It's not the odds on way to do it.

 

And while the mid-season trade route seems like a good move this year as an overall repeated strategy it is too risky.  The Bills were very fortunate to be 4-2 before pulling the trigger.  

[FireChans]

34 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The odds of one of Tenn (DHop), the Raiders (D Adams), Tampa (Godwin), Denver (Jeudy), Seattle (DK Metcalf). Rams (C Kupp), or Cleveland (A Cooper) to be out of it by the deadline were heavily in Beane's favor.

It's very funny that you say this when half the list was hurt and wouldn't have been eligible to be traded for regardless. Jeudy was also already under extension with the Browns. And two of the guys listed are slots guys.

 

The bottoml ine is if the Browns were .500 instead of a mess, the Bills, Chiefs, and Jets would have all been stuck overbidding for Adams/DHop. Would you have been happy sending 2 seconds to the Raiders because we needed Adams? Of course not.

Edited November 25 by FireChans

[Einstein's Dog]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

It's very funny that you say this when half the list was hurt and wouldn't have been eligible to be traded for regardless. Jeudy was also already under extension with the Browns. And two of the guys listed are slots guys.

 

The bottoml ine is if the Browns were .500 instead of a mess, the Bills, Chiefs, and Jets would have all been stuck overbidding for Adams/DHop. Would you have been happy sending 2 seconds to the Raiders because we needed Adams? Of course not.

What are you talking about with "half the list was hurt"?  Most were traded - D Adams. A Cooper, and DHop in particular.  And even if they are hurt, why can't you trade for them?   What secret eligibility requirement are you creating in your mind?  

 

You have no idea what the market would be if Cleveland wasn't a mess.  Some other team could have taken their place.  Also, there is no way to know what the bidding would have been, but we do have a pretty good idea Beane would have set a limit on what he would be willing to pay.

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

What are you talking about with "half the list was hurt"?  Most were traded - D Adams. A Cooper, and DHop in particular.  And even if they are hurt, why can't you trade for them?   What secret eligibility requirement are you creating in your mind?  

 

You have no idea what the market would be if Cleveland wasn't a mess.  Some other team could have taken their place.  Also, there is no way to know what the bidding would have been, but we do have a pretty good idea Beane would have set a limit on what he would be willing to pay.

Most were traded?

 

Godwin wasn't traded. He had a season ending injury 2 weeks prior to the deadline.

 

Jeudy was traded/extended in March and was not available. I don't think that qualifies as a "mid season trade."

 

DK Metcalf was injured October 20th and missed 6 weeks. He also wasn't traded.

 

Cooper Kupp was injured for 7 weeks. He wasn't traded.

 

So not only was "most" of that list not traded midseason, 3/7 of them suffered serious injuries that would have made them even riskier to trade for.

 

Yes Beane probably would have a set limit. Which means that there was a possibility that Beane got outbid and got nobody. Which means the odds were decidedly not "heavily in our favor," at all.

 

Look at the history of midseason WR trades. Last year it was luminaries like Mecole Hardman and Claypool and late round pick swaps. The year prior it was Calvin Ridley on the suspension list, Claypool again and Kadarius Toney. Using the benefit of hindsight to say it was a good bet we would end up with a really good WR in October is not really the reality.

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I'll never understand the MVS foolishness; that was Kelvin Benjamin level dumbassery right there. Claypool, as a legit talent possibly realizing this was his last chance to make real money in this league was a viable plan B, imo.

As for October sellers, it doesn't take a huge leap of faith to believe that Will Levis, Gardner Minshew and Destupid Watson were going to have their teams in position to sell assets before the deadline.

 

Yeah MVS wasn't going to work.   That should have been obvious.

 

But there was really no hope for Claypool.   He just didn't want football OR the money enough to hone his skills.   Aaron Maybin managed to kayfabe his way to about $20M for 2 seasons with the Bills.   He was literally only pretending to play football.   Complete with flops and grossly embellishing contact etc..  But even he tried after the Jets picked him up and free agency and a second contract loomed.   Claypool left tens of millions on the table this past offseason for the want of trying at all in 2023.   Never seen anything quite like it but he seemed to need to be liked or he was taking his ball and going home.  From the moment he cost the Steelers that game against Minnesota with his celebration on Dec 10, 2021 and caught universal condemnation for it the switch shut completely off.   He had 93 yards that game and was on pace for well over 1,000 that season but he checked out the rest of the year and it only got worse from there.

 

And no, you can't predict that teams that are expected to be around .500 preseason will even be sellers.   The Bills had their share of QB's playing like you mentioned and would be "in the hunt" at 4-7 in November and rarely dealt talent at the deadline.    You can hope for it,  I was hoping Seattle would flop hard and Metcalf would be available.  But if GM's of suspect teams didn't think they could still sneak into the playoffs and maybe salvage their jobs in the process they would have traded those players when they had a lot more value in the offseason.   So some years there isn't much out there.  The NFL deadline isn't like MLB or even the NHL where players bring good value in return.  There was solid demand for WR's but still the previous season's 1,000 yard receiver at the trade deadline was worth just a 4th or 5th round pick if you weren't eating money.

 

 

Edited November 25 by BADOLBILZ

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

But there was really no hope for Claypool.   He just didn't want football OR the money enough to hone his skills.   Aaron Maybin managed to kayfabe his way to about $20M for 2 seasons with the Bills.   He was literally only pretending to play football.   Complete with flops and grossly embellishing contact etc..  But even he tried after the Jets picked him up and free agency and a second contract loomed.   Claypool left tens of millions on the table this past offseason for the want of trying at all in 2023.   Never seen anything quite like it but he seemed to be liked or he was taking his ball and going home.  From the moment he cost the Steelers that game against Minnesota with his celebration on Dec 10, 2021 and caught universal condemnation for it the switch shut completely off.   He had 93 yards that game and was on pace for well over 1,000 that season but he checked out the rest of the year and it only got worse from there.

 

It was a weird situation.

I typically have zero respect for guys like that but that one just felt different for some reason.

Even McDermott had some unsolicited nice things to say about him in August and I don't think that is his typical MO for dealing with guys with a history of half-stepping.

I have no idea whether it was temporary inspiration and he would have shut down by Halloween or whether he was actually committed to making back some of the money he pissed away, but I was actually getting the sense he came to play this time.

I'm really curious if he's going to pop up again somewhere next year or if it was a just one-off. 

As flyers go, I still think it was worth a shot.

 

[beerme1]

Just want to say I appreciate this thread.

It's such a great look/feel/vibe what Cooper said. It makes me feel proud to be a Bills fan.

 

GO BILLS!

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

It was a weird situation.

I typically have zero respect for guys like that but that one just felt different for some reason.

Even McDermott had some unsolicited nice things to say about him in August and I don't think that is his typical MO for dealing with guys with a history of half-stepping.

I have no idea whether it was temporary inspiration and he would have shut down by Halloween or whether he was actually committed to making back some of the money he pissed away, but I was actually getting the sense he came to play this time.

I'm really curious if he's going to pop up again somewhere next year or if it was a just one-off. 

As flyers go, I still think it was worth a shot.

 

 

Claypool had just one game over 40 yards(41) and just a handful in the 30's over the next 2+ years.   I think people really lost track of how extreme his fall off was.  

 

I just think football coaches at that level just don't understand people like Maybin and Claypool because by all rights they shouldn't be able to reach that level with their mindsets.