Ranking Bills Coordinators (McDermott Era)

[Matt_In_NH]

People forget how frustating things were under Dabol at times.....we all remember how it ended with Allen playing at his absolute best in those playoffs.   I still give him the nod because he helped develop Allen, it is a thought exercise to think about whether it all happens without him or not but he was there for Allen going from a wild untamed player to elite NFL QB.

 

On defense, I think McDermott deserves the credit even though there are DC's, not that different that OC's in KC.  This is McDermott's defense.

Edited 15 hours ago by Matt_In_NH

[FireChans]

9 hours ago, Einstein said:

I know the metrics look good, and I certainly won’t say he is doing a bad job because he isn’t…. but I just personally can’t stand the way Brady calls a game.

 

The number of times that we have all (or nearly all) of our receivers in the same area, or in front of the sticks, is mind-boggling. He just doesn’t seem to believe in spacing. Daboll is a master at spacing. We had so many guys running open when he was here.

 

And Brady is the worst culprit of poor spacing on 4th down in my opinion. He constantly calls plays where the pass catchers are right at the dang sticks.

 

For example: The red-line is the first down and we have all of our pass catchers playing right to the line. Hate it. It gives zero margin for error. He’s done it for the past 4 games or so and it drives me nuts.

 

 

This was last week when he did it too. 3 of our 4 receiving options were right at the sticks. Just bugs me.

 

 

When you’re looking for a life partner, personality matters, right? That doesn’t mean they’re not a good person. In the same sort of way, I know and acknowledge that Brady is a good OC. But his “personality” (style) just doesn’t mesh with me.

 

We have very few players able to run routes past the sticks. There’s zero reason for Shakir to run fades or go’s or skinny posts.

[BillsFan130]

8 hours ago, NickelCity said:

Dennison not even being mentioned in most of these posts is brutal lol

In my opening post I said not including Dennison. So blame me for that one lol 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:

So stubbornly pounding the ball up the middle all game to put yourself in 2nd and 3rd and longs all game long, to set

Yourself for a few plays at the end of the game is the strategy?

 

I am sorry, Not a sustainable strategy. 
 

Bills have an all world QB who ridiculously bailed them out of 3rd and longs all game long, that's why they were successful against KC

 

Allen converts 3rd downs better than anyone in NFL history at almost 50%, so actually as we have seen over the last 5 years it IS a sustainable strategy.

[Saxum]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

People forget how frustrating things were under Dabol at times.....we all remember how it ended with Allen playing at his absolute best in those playoffs.   I still give him the nod because he helped develop Allen, it is a thought exercise to think about whether it all happens without him or not but he was there for Allen going from a wild untamed player to elite NFL QB.

 

What was best was Brian Daboll's synergy with Allen where they would call each other even other up in middle of night with ideas sometimes wild.

 

[BillsFan130]

8 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Allen converts 3rd downs better than anyone in NFL history at almost 50%, so actually as we have seen over the last 5 years it IS a sustainable strategy.

Being in 3rd and longs is a sustainable strategy for you to win football games consistently?

If that's the case then anyone of us could be offensive coordinator for the bills as all we would have to do is run it on 1st and 2nd downs to get to 3rd and medium/longs lol

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

I know the metrics look good, and I certainly won’t say he is doing a bad job because he isn’t…. but I just personally can’t stand the way Brady calls a game.

 

The number of times that we have all (or nearly all) of our receivers in the same area, or in front of the sticks, is mind-boggling. He just doesn’t seem to believe in spacing. Daboll is a master at spacing. We had so many guys running open when he was here.

 

And Brady is the worst culprit of poor spacing on 4th down in my opinion. He constantly calls plays where the pass catchers are right at the dang sticks.

 

For example: The red-line is the first down and we have all of our pass catchers playing right to the line. Hate it. It gives zero margin for error. He’s done it for the past 4 games or so and it drives me nuts.

 

 

This was last week when he did it too. 3 of our 4 receiving options were right at the sticks. Just bugs me.

 

 

When you’re looking for a life partner, personality matters, right? That doesn’t mean they’re not a good person. In the same sort of way, I know and acknowledge that Brady is a good OC. But his “personality” (style) just doesn’t mesh with me.

 

 

So first of all, just to say I acknowledge and recognise the starting point from which you are coming at this which is just that you are not saying this offense is bad it doesn't meet your schematic preferences. I understand that. I have a stylistic aversion to heavy blitzing defenses, I have never liked them. But I recognise that done well - Brian Flores, Steve Spagnoulo - they can be really successful. They'll just never be my cup of tea or the way I'd call it if I was running a defense. 

 

I think the Brady / Daboll comparison on the way they are trying to create separation is interesting too. They are using different styles to do the same thing. To a certain extent I think you can throw the 4th and 2 from Sunday out. The Bills have basically admitted Spags won that rep coaching wise. The Bills expected man, saw man, and then got zone and it was just Josh Allen making a superman play that made it work. The play was designed to get Shakir open and he is sufficiently past the line to be open, the Chiefs just had the right D called. But overall they do take different approaches to creating space. Daboll, as you say, was a master of spacing. And he used that to get his receivers into areas of the field where they had green grass around them to be open targets. Brady does a lot more of trying to put the defense in conflict. That tends to be why he has receivers closer to each other because he is trying to use natural leverage and rub routes to put defenders into a bind, conflict them as to their coverage responsibility and get separation for his receivers. The 3rd down play to Shakir earlier in the drive was a classic example of where they did exactly that on a key down.  I'm not sure it is poor spacing so much as by design he wants his receivers close to each other to make defenders read and react and they have been pretty effective recently at getting guys open that way.  It is a different strategy, and I might argue with our current pass catchers is an approach more suited to the talent. Dorsey was still trying to run the Daboll philosophy but with a declining Diggs, no Brown or Sanders and no Beasley to just sit in those zones.

 

I have always felt that the Brady O has a lower ceiling than the Daboll O. That is still my niggling doubt despite the decent upward curve we are on. But I think the personnel kind of required them to move away from some of those core Dabes concepts. It needed a different way of getting guys open. 

[bigK14094]

12 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

Daboll over Brady makes less and less sense the more time goes on. 

Daboll had occasional brain cramps with an off the wall play call.  Brady has fewer, but not zero.

[JP51]

12 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

Daboll over Brady makes less and less sense the more time goes on. 

ok Dorsey last... now the debate.... 

 

To me its a tie... Daboll was the guy to develop Josh into a real QB from a raw talent with no ceiling... Brady was the quy who helped him round into a leader... and a mature football player... Back to Rex... Mahomes is the best QB, Allen is the best football player... I think Brady has some share in that...  I honestly think he needed both... and I dont know if Daboll could have gotten Josh to that place... nor am I sure Brady would have gotten Josh to where Daboll did. 

[shane nelson]

With two rookie coordinators its really hard to rank them without a full season.  That said, i think that Sean has built his strongest staff.  For the first time we are finally playing complementary football.  Hopefully it will keep building as we head down the final and most critical stretch of the season.   

[BADOLBILZ]

12 hours ago, MJS said:

Yeah, Dennison got handed a poor deck of cards and he didn't even get fired mid-season like Dorsey, so maybe he should rank ahead of Dorsey!

 

Actually, Rick Dennison got handed much of the offense that had just lead the NFL in BOTH rushing and big plays in both 2015 and 2016.   They had been 7th in scoring the season before despite a ton of injuries to the receiving corps.    And Dennison then wrecked it ENTIRELY by trying to turn them into Shanahan style outside zone team when the OL was only suited for the inside zone and gap pin and pull styles that Roman had implemented.  Turned ol' Shady from a 5.4 ypc RB to a sub league average 4.0 ypc RB.  

 

Yeah Dennison was the worst of the lot.  

Edited 12 hours ago by BADOLBILZ

[MJS]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Actually, Rick Dennison got handed much of the offense that had just lead the NFL in BOTH rushing and big plays in both 2015 and 2016.   They had been 7th in scoring the season before despite a ton of injuries to the receiving corps.    And Dennison then wrecked it ENTIRELY by trying to turn them into Shanahan style outside zone team when the OL was only suited for the inside zone and gap pin and pull styles that Roman had implemented.  Turned ol' Shady from a 5.4 ypc RB to a sub league average 4.0 ypc RB.  

 

Yeah Dennison was the worst of the lot.  

Without Sammy Watkins or Robert Woods, plus a number of other departures. They unloaded a lot of talent to the point they were accused nationally of tanking.

 

Regardless, though, I was joking. Dennison wasn't a good coordinator, which is why he got fired after one season.

[st pete gogolak]

I think this is more fun if it is expanded to Bills’ entire history. OC - Ted Marchibroda. DC - Wade Phillips or Joel Collier.

[Julio Hopkins]

5 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Bills have an all world QB who ridiculously bailed them out of 3rd and longs all game long, that's why they were successful against KC

This doesn’t seem to be talked about enough.  Allen has been playing on another level the past two seasons.  He single handily won the opening game against Arizona.  I’m not trying to discredit Brady or anything but plays like that 4th and 2 TD run is all Allen.  

I don’t think Daboll was getting this level of play.  That said, maybe Brady unlocked it.  I don’t really know.  

 

[hondo in seattle]

With all our OCs, I've had these kinds of thoughts...  "What the heck is the game plan here?  What weakness in the opponent are they trying to exploit?  What strength of ours are they trying to leverage?  There doesn't seem to be a plan at all  - just random plays." 

 

 After the Ravens debacle, I had lost hope in Brady.  But he's been steadily winning me over since then.  Hopefully, the best is yet to come.   

 

The things I liked about Dorsey were the continuity and his comfort level with Josh.  But that was about it - I was never a fan of his or Dennison's.

 

Daboll had his shortcomings but he took this raw kid from a college backwater and - eventually - crafted a potent passing attack.  I'm grateful for what Daboll accomplished but wouldn't want him back.      

[BillsFan130]

4 hours ago, Julio Hopkins said:

This doesn’t seem to be talked about enough.  Allen has been playing on another level the past two seasons.  He single handily won the opening game against Arizona.  I’m not trying to discredit Brady or anything but plays like that 4th and 2 TD run is all Allen.  

I don’t think Daboll was getting this level of play.  That said, maybe Brady unlocked it.  I don’t really know.  

 

Yep exactly- I actually made a thread after that Arizona game stating exactly 

What you said about Josh bailing them.

 

Joe Brady is definitely a descent OC, but I think sometimes we just look at "oh the bills scored 30 points so Joe Brady was awesome ".

 

Opposed to realizing we have a future hall of fame QB who bailed this team out of 3rd and longs all game Long