MVP hype for Allen

[Since1981]

I expect the 50 AP panel is smart enough to look at stats as a general compare. Having INT=TD is bad but say a 10% differential between player stats is just noise. 

 

2020 panel included:

• Peter King, NBC Sports

• Tony Dungy, NBC Sports

• Chris Mortensen, ESPN

• John Clayton, ESPN

• Jarrett Bell, USA Today

• Bob Glauber, Newsday

• Rich Gannon, CBS Sports

• Suzy Kolber, ESPN

• Adam Schein, CBS Sports

• Michael Strahan, Fox Sports

[Scott7975]

15 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

If Harbaugh plays Lamar next week to chase an mvp and he gets hurt, all hell will rain down on the organization. 🤣

They are still chasing the division and the 3 seed.

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

I've been thinking way too much about the MVP race. I CARE way too much about the MVP race. I'm not one of those "I don't give a damn if Josh wins or not, it's all about the Lombardi" guys. I want to see Josh named MVP because he deserves it, because it would validate him undeniably as an all-time great, and because it would burnish his eventual case for the Hall of Fame.

That said...

Two things bother me (which have probably already been more clearly stated by others):

1. The criteria suddenly seems to have changed. For about a decade now, the MVP award has generally been given to the best performing quarterback from one of the top two seeds in either conference. Last year was a great example, with Lamar winning largely because the Ravens were the top seed. His statistics were very ordinary and certainly didn't scream "MVP". NOW all of the sudden, out of nowhere, people are disregarding this precedent and suggesting that the QB of the three-seeded team (with two more losses on its resume) should win solely because of superior statistics, when "superior statistics" hasn't been enough to overcome the "wins" criteria of previous years. Given the way in which the goalposts have been moved on Josh Allen again and again throughout his career, it is hard not to take this a little personally and to wonder if this same "shift" would be happening if it was any other player leading the MVP voting.

2. People consider raw statistics way too much without weighing the context that surrounds them. Specifically, Josh Allen has played 100 less snaps than Lamar Jackson. He's also going to sit next week while Lamar racks up more stats against a bad Browns team. I'm already pre-emptively annoyed at all of the "This seals MVP for Lamar!" stuff I'm gonna hear next week as Lamar plays and Josh sits. But WHY is Lamar playing while Josh sits? That should matter to the outcome of the MVP race. Further, the context of the players Josh Allen has surrounding him and the expectations this Bills team had (or didn't have), vs the players Lamar has surrounding him and the expectations his Ravens team had.

That's it for me. Those are, as best I can sum them up, the two things that make me feel like Josh Allen deserves to win it over Lamar Jackson this year.

If I look sheerly at their play this season and at the numbers themselves, there is no particularly valid argument that Lamar ISN'T a valid and deserving MVP candidate. But deciding, out of nowhere, to change the rules for deciding the award, to suddenly ignore context, surrounding talent, expectations, win totals, precedent, etc...It feels unfair, and it feels lazy and sloppy, and I don't like it.

TL;DR: The sudden change in MVP criteria sucks. Josh for MVP.

 

The criteria hasnt changed for voters. It has changed for media looking for clicks. It has changed for fans arguing for their own QB.  Both Acho and now Dan O, who both have votes, have now come out and tried to tell people this is not a stat reward. OPOY is for the stat award.  I posted Acho before telling people how the MVP is voted. Now I will post Dan O...

 

 

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The criteria hasnt changed for voters. It has changed for media looking for clicks. It has changed for fans arguing for their own QB.  Both Acho and now Dan O, who both have votes, have now come out and tried to tell people this is not a stat reward. OPOY is for the stat award.  I posted Acho before telling people how the MVP is voted. Now I will post Dan O...

 

 

I hope you're right.

What has me concerned is that the MVP voting panel is largely made up of media members and journalists. So if you're saying "the media" are the ones making this a talking point, well...lots of those doing the talking will also be doing the voting.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I’m confused why this is such a debate? Is co-MVP not a thing anymore?

 

[Kelly to Allen]

Ppl can have whatever narrative you want.

 

There's no justification or rational opinion that has Lamar with 3 MVPs in this era and Allen zero. That's absolutely absurd, it's silly and completely ridiculous. 

 

I hope the writers do the right thing. 

[stevewin]

Posted it earlier in this thread - FYI this is the list of voters this year

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/heres-the-full-list-of-the-50-ap-awards-voters

 

Emmanuel Acho, FS1
Greg Auman, Fox Sports
Howard Balzer, PHNX radio
Jarrett Bell, USA Today
Dave Birkett, Detroit Free Press
Tom Brady, Fox Sports
Tedy Bruschi, ESPN
Vic Carucci, WGRZ radio
Mark Craig, Minneapolis Star Tribune
Tom Curran, NBC Sports Boston
Charles Davis, CBS Sports
Nate Davis, USA Today
Howard Deneroff, Westwood One
Tony Dungy, NBC Sports
Jori Epstein, Yahoo Sports
Boomer Esiason, CBS Sports
Doug Farrar, USA Today Sports Media
Mike Florio, Pro Football Talk
Reuben Frank, NBC Sports Philadelphia
Rich Gannon, SiriusXM
Jonathan Jones, CBS Sports
Lindsay Jones, The Ringer
Mike Jones, The Athletic
Clark Judge, Talk of Fame Network
Ira Kaufman, JoeBucsFan.com
Mina Kimes, ESPN
Peter King, NBC Sports
Pat Kirwan, SiriusXM
Jeff Legwold, ESPN
Jim Miller, SiriusXM
Sam Monson, Pro Football Focus
Bruce Murray, SiriusXM
Gary Myers, NFL author
Laura Okmin, Fox Sports
Dan Orlovsky, ESPN
Nick Pavlatos, SiriusXM
Dan Pompei, The Athletic
Nora Princiotti, The Ringer
Lorenzo Reyes, USA Today
Charles Robinson, Yahoo Sports
Dianna Russini, The Athletic
Mike Sando, The Athletic
Aaron Schatz, FTN Network
Adam Schein, CBS Sports
Tom Silverstein, Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
Chris Simms, NBC Sports
Armando Salguero, Outkick.com
Mike Tirico, NBC Sports
Ben Volin, Boston Globe
Charean Williams, Pro Football Talk

[Simon]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I’m confused why this is such a debate? Is co-MVP not a thing anymore?

 

 

With ranked-choice voting being the system now, there will be no more ties that produce a co-MVP.

[Kelly to Allen]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I’m confused why this is such a debate? Is co-MVP not a thing anymore?

 

I'm willing to concede that as long as Allen is also MVP.

 

There's no Universe where he has zero in this era and Lamar has 3 MVPs before 3 playoff wins. 

 

We gotta live in actual reality. And Lamar with 3 MVPs and Allen zero in this era is not just ridiculous, its lala land bizzare ravens cult type silliness 

 

The dude is number 1 in 

 

Yds

Tds 

Wins 

 

All in his first 7 years.

 

He's got more playoff (( PASSING ))touchdowns than Phillip Rivers and Eli Manning in their entire career....

 

Enough 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Kelly to Allen

[zow2]

And memo to folks here not to get lost in the sauce this coming weekend.  Lamar is going to play vs Cleveland of course and he may account for 5 TD's by halftime and it will be 35-3 Baltimore.  Harbaugh will keep him in there the entire 2nd half too.   Cleveland is tanking that's why they've been using DTR and not Winston.  Jameis might actually outscore someone.  The Browns don't want that.   

 

Allen had to play right through week 18 last season and Lamar sat out week 18 vs Pittsburgh as did almost all the Ravens starters.  Didn't matter.  Lamar was still 49-1 in the final vote.  The final weekend means much different priorities for different teams and the voters aren't stupid.

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by zow2

[Logic]

This entire thread by Michael F Florio (who, I should note, is not the same person as ProFootballTalk's Mike Florio) is excellent. It's worth reading the entire thing, which is too long to post all of here.
 

 

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I hope you're right.

What has me concerned is that the MVP voting panel is largely made up of media members and journalists. So if you're saying "the media" are the ones making this a talking point, well...lots of those doing the talking will also be doing the voting.

Yeah on that show that has Shady the MVP voter that's on it said his vote was basically Josh Allen after the Lions game and when everyone kept giving him crap about how it can't be decided, saying how things could happen, but basically the undertone was, hey we've still got over a month of talking about this.

 

So he basically said it was Allen unless he lost 2 out of the next 3 and played bad. Well that didn't happen.

[Kelly to Allen]

5 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Yeah on that show that has Shady the MVP voter that's on it said his vote was basically Josh Allen after the Lions game and when everyone kept giving him crap about how it can't be decided, saying how things could happen, but basically the undertone was, hey we've still got over a month of talking about this.

 

So he basically said it was Allen unless he lost 2 out of the next 3 and played bad. Well that didn't happen.

 

 

There is a serious effort to not give him the MVP award. 

 

Charlie kolar literally just said some insane stuff. Obviously I think he's deserving. But I've never seen this vitriol from prominent ppl in the media, former players etc. 

 

It's absolutely emotional and human beings making emotional decisions is usually a recipe for disaster 

 

Prepare for anything when they vote. 

 

I have zero confidence right now considering the vitriol I saw on Sunday. 

 

 

 

 

[Scott7975]

 

[Kelly to Allen]

 

 

[Success]

5 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

 

There is a serious effort to not give him the MVP award. 

 

Charlie kolar literally just said some insane stuff. Obviously I think he's deserving. But I've never seen this vitriol from prominent ppl in the media, former players etc. 

 

It's absolutely emotional and human beings making emotional decisions is usually a recipe for disaster 

 

Prepare for anything when they vote. 

 

I have zero confidence right now considering the vitriol I saw on Sunday. 

 

 

 

 

 

Am I missing something?  When did MVP become a "strictly stats" award?

 

There are multiple factors.  And the stats aren't lopsided.  

 

Like, 2 more TD's and 2 fewer INT's?  That's supposed to convince me?

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, stevewin said:

Posted it earlier in this thread - FYI this is the list of voters this year

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/heres-the-full-list-of-the-50-ap-awards-voters

 

Emmanuel Acho, FS1
Greg Auman, Fox Sports
Howard Balzer, PHNX radio
Jarrett Bell, USA Today
Dave Birkett, Detroit Free Press
Tom Brady, Fox Sports
Tedy Bruschi, ESPN
Vic Carucci, WGRZ radio
Mark Craig, Minneapolis Star Tribune
Tom Curran, NBC Sports Boston
Charles Davis, CBS Sports
Nate Davis, USA Today
Howard Deneroff, Westwood One
Tony Dungy, NBC Sports
Jori Epstein, Yahoo Sports
Boomer Esiason, CBS Sports
Doug Farrar, USA Today Sports Media
Mike Florio, Pro Football Talk
Reuben Frank, NBC Sports Philadelphia
Rich Gannon, SiriusXM
Jonathan Jones, CBS Sports
Lindsay Jones, The Ringer
Mike Jones, The Athletic
Clark Judge, Talk of Fame Network
Ira Kaufman, JoeBucsFan.com
Mina Kimes, ESPN
Peter King, NBC Sports
Pat Kirwan, SiriusXM
Jeff Legwold, ESPN
Jim Miller, SiriusXM
Sam Monson, Pro Football Focus
Bruce Murray, SiriusXM
Gary Myers, NFL author
Laura Okmin, Fox Sports
Dan Orlovsky, ESPN
Nick Pavlatos, SiriusXM
Dan Pompei, The Athletic
Nora Princiotti, The Ringer
Lorenzo Reyes, USA Today
Charles Robinson, Yahoo Sports
Dianna Russini, The Athletic
Mike Sando, The Athletic
Aaron Schatz, FTN Network
Adam Schein, CBS Sports
Tom Silverstein, Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
Chris Simms, NBC Sports
Armando Salguero, Outkick.com
Mike Tirico, NBC Sports
Ben Volin, Boston Globe
Charean Williams, Pro Football Talk

I'm to lazy to look it up but I would be curious as to their preseason predictions on where the Bills & Ravens would finish this season.

 

 

[KOKBILLS]

Josh is the MVP and of course I'm biased... But this is simple IMHO...

 

Stat's don't really matter much because both Josh and Lamar are great players, they have great stats and their teams are involved in blow-outs a lot which can skew statistics a bit...

 

I think it comes down to two things...

 

The Ravens are 2-5 when Henry has less than 90 yards rushing.

 

The Bills traded away Josh's #1 WR (one of the top 10 WR's in the NFL) and have the 3rd most dead cap in the league.  The 2nd most talented player on the Bills Offense is probably Cook...3rd is probably Shakir. I don't think Lamar would do as well with what Josh has as Josh would do with what Lamar has...

 

Just my opinion. 

[Warcodered]

9 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Am I missing something?  When did MVP become a "strictly stats" award?

 

There are multiple factors.  And the stats aren't lopsided.  

 

Like, 2 more TD's and 2 fewer INT's?  That's supposed to convince me?

 

Just after Lamar won having just as many total TDs as Josh had Passing TDs in the Year Josh set the Rushing TD record.

[Boatdrinks]

Fortunately neither Kolar or Broussard has a vote. I don’t love some of the names on that list of 50, but I don’t believe nuance is lost on the majority. Particularly the longtime sportswriters.