MVP hype for Allen

[Kelly to Allen]

20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well using your trend logic, Houston’s offense has been trending the wrong way. And the Ravens defense gave uo the most points the Raiders have all season and the second most the Browns scored all year? 
 

what would the MVP conversation be if Ravens didn’t have the two most unbelievable losses in the whole season? 
 

spoiler alert, it would be the same because LAmar is not going to win it again until he wins a SB. 

Lamar is 27. Manning didn’t win his first SB until 30. Kelly had more ints than tds in the postseason and went to 4 SBs. 
 

if Lamar wins a SB, he goes into the conversation for all time qbs. Same with Allen. Both are very young and a ton can change even in a few months. If you don’t think Lamar is a top 5 qb, you’re just being a hater at this point. 

 

If Lamar is what you think it will manifest in the playoffs. Saying if he wins the Superbowl is the same thing we heard with another rpo dependent QB in Cam Newton. 

 

Calling a QB top 5 who has been terrible in the playoffs is silly. 

 

Jim Kelly in his second and third playoff was an all time great.  His 1990 playoff is incredible...We need to live in reality 

Edited yesterday at 08:21 PM by Kelly to Allen

[C.Biscuit97]

9 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Peyton Manning was almost perfect and had two all time playoff performances as a passer in 2003. Peyton Manning has nothing to prove as a passer within a traditional offense by year 2. Lamar is still answering these questions 

 

It's also completely ridiculous to bring up Peyton Manning because Manning is probably the greatest passing QB of all time in the regular season. I don't even put Allen in his tier yet. One could argue Peyton Manning might be the greatest ever. Stop the silliness 

 

Lamar is in year 7 and has been terrible in the playoffs, especially as a passer and is still looking for his first 4000 yd passing season. He's still RPO dependent 

 

The best you can say about Lamar is he has been a really good dual threat QB in a RPO/ zone read foundation that has stalled out in the playoffs. He has improved enough as a passer playing within structure that he could break through. That's what he is right now 

 

 

Fun fact, Manning had 3 playoff stats with 1 tds, and 2 ints. In his last start before turning 27, he threw for 137 yards with 0 tds and 2 ints. Lamar is 27. Peyton was thought of chocked until he won that SB. He never beat Florida or won anything of note in college either. 
 

point is, narratives change quickly. It’s not crazy to think Lamar wins the SB and it’s like of course the greatest dual threat wins a SB. Same thing with Allen. It’s silly to sum up their careers at this point. 
 

I love Allen and Lamar because they do it their own way and had a lot of hate when they first came in. 

4 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

 

If Lamar is what you think it will manifest in the playoffs. Saying if he wins the Superbowl is the same thing we heard with another rpo dependent QB in Cam Newton. 

 

Calling a QB top 5 who has been terrible in the playoffs is silly. 

 

Jim Kelly in his second and third playoff was an all time great. We need to live in reality 

Difference between Newton and Jackson is Jackson keeps getting better as passer. 
 

and I’m not going to win this against a guy with your user name but Kelly sucked in the playoffs. 21 tds to 28 ints. Why didn’t they run Thurman a million times against 2 man d line in SB 25? 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm
 

kelly was very good but he was boosted by an all time great team. Put Marino or Elway on the Bills, they have multiple SBs. I’m going to bills hell but it’s the truth. 

Edited yesterday at 08:22 PM by C.Biscuit97

[H2o]

6 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Lamar is in year 7 and has been terrible in the playoffs, especially as a passer and is still looking for his first 4000 yd passing season. He's still RPO dependent 

 

The best you can say about Lamar is he has been a really good dual threat QB in a RPO/ zone read foundation that has stalled out in the playoffs. He has improved enough as a passer playing within structure that he could break through. That's what he is right now 

He's only 45 yards away. Barring injury, he will eclipse that with no problem this year. I, too, have been skeptical of Lamar as a passer, but he does look better this year throwing from the pocket. He also has 39 TD's to just 4 INT's. That's pretty amazing. 

 

In all of this talk about who should be the MVP, I still think it's Allen. Will he get it? I don't think so, just because I don't trust those holding the ballots. Allen is putting up numbers on par with what he has done the last 4 seasons, but with what is widely viewed as lesser talent on this roster. He will eclipse 40 total TD's for the 5th straight season. He still has a shot at 4,000 yds passing for the 5th straight season. You can't really ask him to do much more to carry this team, because that's absolutely what he's done for the last 5 years now. 

[C.Biscuit97]

18 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

Peyton Manning was almost perfect and had two all time playoff performances as a passer in 2003. Peyton Manning had nothing to prove as a passer within a traditional offense by year 2. Lamar is still answering these questions. 

 

It's also completely ridiculous to bring up Peyton Manning because Manning is probably the greatest passing QB of all time in the regular season. I don't even put Allen in his tier yet. Allen may never get there...One could argue Peyton Manning might be the greatest ever. Stop the silliness 

 

Lamar is in year 7 and has been terrible in the playoffs, especially as a passer and is still looking for his first 4000 yd passing season. He's still RPO dependent. 

 

The best you can say about Lamar is he has been a really good dual threat QB in a RPO/ zone read foundation that has stalled out in the playoffs. He has improved enough as a passer playing within structure that he could break through. That's what he is right now 

 

 

Andy Dalton has multiple 4,000 yard seasons. Dalton >>> Jackson obviously!

[Kelly to Allen]

20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Fun fact, Manning had 3 playoff stats with 1 tds, and 2 ints. In his last start before turning 27, he threw for 137 yards with 0 tds and 2 ints. Lamar is 27. Peyton was thought of chocked until he won that SB. He never beat Florida or won anything of note in college either. 
 

point is, narratives change quickly. It’s not crazy to think Lamar wins the SB and it’s like of course the greatest dual threat wins a SB. Same thing with Allen. It’s silly to sum up their careers at this point. 
 

I love Allen and Lamar because they do it their own way and had a lot of hate when they first came in. 

Peyton Manning in his 4th and 5th playoff game had insane all time numbers passing.

 

I can't take this conversation seriously because it's incredibly disrespectful to a QB like Peyton Manning. It's ridiculous 

 

There was no question about Peyton Manning as a passer by year 2. 

 

There are still serious philosophical questions about a RPO dependent QB. 

 

There's questions about sustainability because obviously the athletic ability falls off quickly in your late 20s and there are also serious questions about the effectiveness of an offense that is either out of structure too much, or not foundational to a QB running and putting the defense in conflict. There's also questions about durability although I think that's the most overblown concern. Most QBs get hurt getting hit awkwardly in the pocket 

 

In the afc championship vs KC and vs buffalo both defenses sold out vs the run and Lamar couldn't function in layman's terms. 

 

The narrative last year in year 6 was why didn't Lamar just run more? 

 

If the narrative is your QB needs to pass less in the biggest moments, I think that's a problem and raises questions.

 

It's not hating, nobody is saying he's not really good especially being a dual threat qb. 

 

If you're asking me do I trust 5 other qbs more than Lamar in the playoffs? Yes I do 

 

Again, the truth will reveal itself in the playoffs 

 

I apologize if I came across as too confrontational 

 

 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Andy Dalton has multiple 4,000 yard seasons. Dalton >>> Jackson obviously!

 

The question is can you be trusted as a high volume passer in the playoffs when teams know you must pass. Within structure....

 

Not reductively that because a random qb throws for 4000 yds, therefore he's good lol.

 

Derek Carr has passed for 4000 yds, heck Winston threw for 5000....nobody thinks they're anything close to Stafford. You're being pedantic 

Edited yesterday at 08:39 PM by Kelly to Allen

[Ramza86]

If Lamar ever deserved an MVP it would be this year based on stats. I believe his other 2 were not deserved. 

 

The Ravens roster is superior to ours. Which makes Allens stats more impressive and makes him more valueable. Allen should be the MVP

 

The thing is if you told me if you put Lamar on this team I still think wed be somewhere around the same record because his skill set is the most similar to Allens.

 

I think if you put Allen on the Ravens hed prolly have a couple of more wins than Lamar. 

 

[zow2]

The Ravens have been playing meaningful games for a while now trying to catch and surpass Pittsburgh.  Buffalo wrapped up with 5 games remaining and I just don't think the urgency is there.  It's very different from last season when the final 6-7 Bills games were played with extreme urgency right until the clock hit 0:00 each game.  The season was on the line each week. So Allen racked up great stats until the end of the Miami game and got the 2 seed.  

 

I thought after a sloppy Rams game, McDermott and the guys made a concerted effort to get back on track vs Detroit.  They did a good job there.  I think after a sloppy Pats game, and a very unhappy McDermott, the players will ramp it up this week in the rain.  They will play a solid game against the Jets, get a big W,  Allen will have some good stats,,,and no one of any importance will play week 18.   Will that be enough for the MVP?  maybe.

[Kelly to Allen]

6 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

If Lamar ever deserved an MVP it would be this year based on stats. I believe his other 2 were not deserved. 

 

The Ravens roster is superior to ours. Which makes Allens stats more impressive and makes him more valueable. Allen should be the MVP

 

The thing is if you told me if you put Lamar on this team I still think wed be somewhere around the same record because his skill set is the most similar to Allens.

 

I think if you put Allen on the Ravens hed prolly have a couple of more wins than Lamar. 

 

I'm not sold the ravens have a better roster. That argument is kinda ridiculous. @C.Biscuit97 is correct that a lot of the bills roster is extremely underrated. 

Edited yesterday at 08:43 PM by Kelly to Allen

[TheFunPolice]

People bring up Manning like he's the guy who "can't win the big game"

 

Manning was 3-2 against Brady in the playoffs with all 3 of those wins coming in the AFC Championship game. 

 

Brady had the greatest coach in history his entire time in NE scheming up ways to defeat Manning and went into every game vs Manning with a significant coaching advantage.

 

Yet Manning had a winning record vs Brady in the playoffs. Manning was so good he went 14-2 with Jim Caldwell as HC.

 

So all of that is worth mentioning. Coaching matters in this league. 

 

Some guys benefit from it and others must overcome the disadvantage.

 

Lamar has an incredible coach who built an entire system around him. 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 08:43 PM by TheFunPolice

[Kelly to Allen]

9 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

People bring up Manning like he's the guy who "can't win the big game"

 

Manning was 3-2 against Brady in the playoffs with all 3 of those wins coming in the AFC Championship game. 

 

Brady had the greatest coach in history his entire time in NE scheming up ways to defeat Manning and went into every game vs Manning with a significant coaching advantage.

 

Yet Manning had a winning record vs Brady in the playoffs. Manning was so good he went 14-2 with Jim Caldwell as HC.

 

So all of that is worth mentioning. Coaching matters in this league. 

 

Some guys benefit from it and others must overcome the disadvantage.

 

Lamar has an incredible coach who built an entire system around him. 

 

 

It's on the table that Peyton Manning is the greatest QB that's ever lived. Nobody would think you're weird for saying that. 

 

Putting Lamar in that conversation is just not based in reality. 

 

I wouldn't even put Allen in that conversation. Josh Allen could win MVP, win the super bowl, win super bowl MVP and I still wouldn't put him in the conversation with Peyton Manning. 

Edited yesterday at 08:52 PM by Kelly to Allen

[zow2]

The gap between Lamar and Allen isn’t large enough to give Jackson a 3rd MVP over Allen’s zero.  Especially if the Bills finish with 2 fewer losses in their meaningful games.

 

Again.  Detroit and KC are 0-2 vs Buffalo and 28-1 against everyone else.

 

Argh. i wish i didn’t care this much!

Edited yesterday at 08:52 PM by zow2

[TheFunPolice]

4 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

It's on the table that Peyton Manning is the greatest QB that's ever lived. Nobody would think you're weird for saying that. 

 

Putting Lamar in that conversation is just not based in reality. 

 

I wouldn't even put Allen in that conversation. 

 

I often wonder what if Manning even had someone like Harbaugh or Tomlin as his HC 

 

Forget Belichick. Imo he has 6 rings with NE and maybe more because he's the reason NE didn't win more. 

 

Dungy was ok, and the best he had. The rest were all mediocrities and proved it without any doubt before or after he was their QB. 

 

Imo Peyton is the GOAT

 

 

Edited yesterday at 08:53 PM by TheFunPolice

[Success]

9 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

People bring up Manning like he's the guy who "can't win the big game"

 

Manning was 3-2 against Brady in the playoffs with all 3 of those wins coming in the AFC Championship game. 

 

Brady had the greatest coach in history his entire time in NE scheming up ways to defeat Manning and went into every game vs Manning with a significant coaching advantage.

 

Yet Manning had a winning record vs Brady in the playoffs. Manning was so good he went 14-2 with Jim Caldwell as HC.

 

So all of that is worth mentioning. Coaching matters in this league. 

 

Some guys benefit from it and others must overcome the disadvantage.

 

Lamar has an incredible coach who built an entire system around him. 

 

 

 

I got so weary of the Brady/Manning debates.  Pats fans kept changing the criteria - it was "wins in big games" until Manning started consistently beating Brady in the playoffs.  Then it was things like overall head-to-head record, and # of rings.  Of course on the latter, Brady wins by a mile.

 

But Brady had what many regard as the GOAT coach and usually a well-constructed team, while Manning had 5 coaches, and often had to carry his teams (similar to Allen now).  I'd still say Brady was better overall than Manning at this point, but it's much closer than most say it is, and certainly closer than their ring count would indicate.

 

[Kelly to Allen]

1 minute ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

I often wonder what if Manning even had someone like Harbaugh or Tomlin as his HC 

 

Forget Belichick. Imo he has 6 rings with NE and maybe more because he's the reason NE didn't win more. 

 

Dungy was ok, and the best he had. The rest were all mediocrities and proved it without any doubt before or after he was their QB. 

 

 

I rank him as probably the greatest QB that's ever lived. Older ppl say Montana, even older say Untias or Sammy Baugh. 

 

The 3 QBs that looked the most aesthetic imo are Marino, Moon and Rodgers. 

 

 

 

 

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

it makes for good debate but MVP is about story line. Lamar isn’t getting 3 without winning a SB. And also the regular season MVP rarely wins the SB, so I don’t know why we care so much anyways. 

Because Josh always seems to be the bridesmaid and never the bride.  Plus, it would be cool to have a Bills player win it for the first time since Thurman won it in 1991.

[Kelly to Allen]

What will elevate Josh this year is if he wins MVP, wins the Superbowl and super bowl MVP, and beat burrow, Lamar, mahomes twice and Goff twice. 

 

That would be truly incredible 

Edited yesterday at 09:01 PM by Kelly to Allen

[SCBills]

2 hours ago, Process said:

I mean Mahomes was awful the entire first half of this season and threw picks in 7 straight games. QB play is not why we didn't get the 1 seed this year. 

No, not this year, but in years past Mahomes has been the steady QB whereas Allen has had some bad games. 
 

That Ravens/Texans stretch this year is the only reason Josh isn’t the runaway MVP. 

 

I think JA is the best QB in the NFL.  I think  Mahomes has leveled off but has the best Defense/Coaching/FO of any elite QB and Allen/Lamar/Burrow have continued to ascend.   And Allen is the most clutch and most physically gifted of those three. 

 

But we haven’t gotten the one seed yet.. and some of that is on him.   And the reason Lamar has a chance to MV3 is due to a brutal two game stretch early in the season. 

[C.Biscuit97]

28 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

People bring up Manning like he's the guy who "can't win the big game"

 

Manning was 3-2 against Brady in the playoffs with all 3 of those wins coming in the AFC Championship game. 

 

Brady had the greatest coach in history his entire time in NE scheming up ways to defeat Manning and went into every game vs Manning with a significant coaching advantage.

 

Yet Manning had a winning record vs Brady in the playoffs. Manning was so good he went 14-2 with Jim Caldwell as HC.

 

So all of that is worth mentioning. Coaching matters in this league. 

 

Some guys benefit from it and others must overcome the disadvantage.

 

Lamar has an incredible coach who built an entire system around him. 

 

 

This is hindsight. There was plenty of talk about Peyton being a regular season star passer before he won. He could never win a big game in college and Tennessee won the national championship the year after he left. It was dumb. 
 

And Belichick before and after Brady has been an average to slightly below average head coach. Fun fact, Tony Dungy has a better record without BB than BB has without Brady. 

[BillytheKid]

The person who has been the favorite to win the MVP at the end of the year has won it almost every year. The last person not to was 2012 when Manning lost it to Peterson and those odds were way closer than what Allen and Lamar’s are. Allen’s lead is bigger than Manning’s way. 
 

plus Peterson was coming off of an ACL tear the year before and ran for 2,000 yards. 
 

Think Allen wins it fairly easily unless he poops the bed this Sunday. 
 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

26 minutes ago, Kelly to Allen said:

It's on the table that Peyton Manning is the greatest QB that's ever lived. Nobody would think you're weird for saying that. 

 

Putting Lamar in that conversation is just not based in reality. 

 

I wouldn't even put Allen in that conversation. Josh Allen could win MVP, win the super bowl, win super bowl MVP and I still wouldn't put him in the conversation with Peyton Manning. 

That was never my point. It was that Manning was bad playoff qb at the same age as Lamar is now. Things can change quickly.