MVP hype for Allen

[Ray Stonada]

It's pretty clear Lamar is playing excellent, controlled football. Has been all season. Both players had incredible seasons.

 

I think Josh get its this year. 

[BeastMaster]

The list of writers that are voting for MVP include a large portion of Lamar is the best thing since sliced bread mindset

 

I think it will be extremely close, but due to what we know about many of the writers on the list, I'd say it's more likely Lamar than Josh

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, H2o said:

That's a fan vote though. We're talking about the same voters who just selected Lamar as 1st Team All-Pro at the QB position. It will be the same with the MVP. It is what it is. 

Just curious why you think the 1st all pro is the same as mvp. 
 

A qb with a losing record could be the 1st team all pro but could never be considered the most valuable player. Ie, a team that lost 10 games with a great qb could just as easily lose 10 games with a mediocre qb. 
 

Value means adding worth. Taking a team from 6 to 10 wins. Or from 9 to 14 wins. Which is esssentialy what Allen did. Bills are at best an average team without Allen. It’s impossible to say for sure, but based on how Huntley played last year, I’d say that the Tavens with Henry and Huntley are an 11 win team. So same as with Jackson. 
 

Inly my opinion of course, but I think Allen adds more worth to the Bills than Jackson adds to the Ravens. 
 

I guess we’ll see what the writers collective opinion is in a couple weeks. 
 

 

[streetkings01]

Said it a couple weeks ago and I’ll say it again…..MVP should go to Lamar…he’s playing out of his mind this season!

6 hours ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

I don’t get the MVP criteria personally. I see articles now saying Lamar is likely to win bc he was named 1st team All Pro.

 

So last year, Allen has the bigger offensive numbers, but Lamar has the team wins, so Lamar gets MVP with pedestrian stats (by MVP standards)

 

This year, Allen gets the wins with a team many were picking to not even win their own division bc “the window was closed” and “rebuilding”, cuts down the INTs, leads the team to 13 wins, but Lamar with an extra game he NEEDED to play, in a year you could argue the Ravens fell short of regular season expectations, regardless he’s STILL MVP???

 

“Voters” need to pick a lane. It can’t be team wins matter one year, then the next it’s irrelevant essentially and you’re going to give the MVP to a player on the 3 seed who needed a week 18 win to close out their division...

Josh Allen threw 18 picks last season…that usually kill your MVP chances.

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

1 hour ago, streetkings01 said:

Said it a couple weeks ago and I’ll say it again…..MVP should go to Lamar…he’s playing out of his mind this season!

Josh Allen threw 18 picks last season…that usually kill your MVP chances.

Say it a few more times if it will make you feel better, doesn’t make you anymore right.  
 

Lamar took the top team in the Conference from last year, added Derrick Henry and ended up the 3 seed.

 

Josh took a team everybody said was going to take a big step back, “had no weapons”, and “the window had closed on them”, to 13 wins, easily could’ve been 14, with Ws over BOTH 1 seeds, and finished once again with as the 2 seed. 

Both offenses scored exactly 65 touchdowns. Josh is going to get penalized for letting Cook eat a little bit this year? 
 

Nah. I don’t think so.

One way or another Josh was responsible for orchestrating all those TD drives, and while Cook is a nice piece, nobody is Derrick Henry. 

 

Simply put, as great a season Lamar had, he added the King, and the Ravens still took a step back in the regular season compared to last year. They fell short of expectations whereas Josh and the Bills exceeded them by every measure.

 

As for last season, the picks were wayyyy overblown. Context is key, a good % of Josh’s picks were simply him chucking it up on 3rd & forever, which situationally was basically the same as a punt. The picks shouldn’t have over shadowed his Herculean effort down the stretch last season to get the team from on the fringe of the post season all the way up to the 2 seed. 

 

Edited Sunday at 07:31 AM by Dr.Mantis_Toboggan

[Doc Brown]

11 hours ago, AllenMania said:

Mike Florio reveals he voted for Lamar Jackson. 
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/pfts-2024-nfl-most-valuable-player-lamar-jackson

Anyone and everyone can concoct an advanced statistical formula that supports Lamar or the runner-up, Josh Allen. Ultimately, it’s instinctive.

 

 

This is fun.  He starts the article off that any advanced statistic is meaningless to him because it's only used to fit the narrative of those trying to show why player x is MVP.  The best argument for Josh compared to Lamar is how Lamar's pass catching options were always open while Josh was forced to throw much more in tight windows.  This sets the table for brushing off the fact that Josh did more with less help.

 

Some will argue that Jackson had more help around him than Allen did. But running back James Cook rushed for more than 1,000 yards and scored 18 total touchdowns. And every pass that Allen completed was caught by a teammate. Lamar was still spectacular; the fact that he stood out statistically despite running back Derrick Henry rushing for nearly 2,000 yards makes Lamar’s performance even more impressive.

 

First of all, I guess since every Allen pass was caught by a teammate means they were just as open as Lamar's options.  This is the best part though.  I actually admire this terrible argument because I haven't heard it yet.  This is some real pretzel twisting even for a lawyer.  Since we ignored any reason to see why the Ravens inflated Jackson's statistics with the added help around him he can now actually make the argument that a great running back should've hurt his stats.  Yes.  Teams loading up to stop the run will only hurt his passing statistics their Florio.  Also, not one mention that Lamar had more turnovers than the turnover machine that Josh Allen was in 2023.  No mention of team wins either which was your main selling point for Lamar winning it last year.  

 

Mina Kimes and Aaron Schatz made some compelling arguments to why they made Lamar Jackson their MVP.  I don't agree with them but at least they didn't give dishonest surface level arguments but put some real thought into why Lamar deserved it.  Anyways, go Bills tomorrow.  Let's hope we can at least get the chance to see Allen vs. Lamar.

Edited Sunday at 08:12 AM by Doc Brown

[Buddy Hix]

Allen may not have become the QB he is if another team had drafted him, and he’s great and will make a ton of money.

But you gotta feel a little bad for him ending up in Buffalo. We are like Siberia, nobody cares about our team or market. And the GM and coach only hinder Allen. Guy will most likely end up with no hardware despite being an alien because he has to do literally everything by himself.

Edited Sunday at 08:41 AM by Buddy Hix

[Albanybillsbacker]

The game tonight shows why Lamar isn’t the MVP.  Pittsburgh didn’t sell out to stop Lamar.  They sold out to stop Henry and still failed at doing it.  

[UKBillFan]

9 minutes ago, Albanybillsbacker said:

The game tonight shows why Lamar isn’t the MVP.  Pittsburgh didn’t sell out to stop Lamar.  They sold out to stop Henry and still failed at doing it.  

 

This is the thing. If, picking a random number, 101 opposition fans had the power to bench one player to make it easier for their team, for Buffalo they would unanimously pick Josh. For Baltimore, I think they would be split between Jackson and Henry. Personally, it's tough, but I think I would prefer to face the Ravens without Henry over Jackson.

[BillsFanNC]

Josh almost certainly isn't winning MVP.

 

 

[DCOrange]

6 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

Just curious why you think the 1st all pro is the same as mvp. 
 

A qb with a losing record could be the 1st team all pro but could never be considered the most valuable player. Ie, a team that lost 10 games with a great qb could just as easily lose 10 games with a mediocre qb. 
 

Value means adding worth. Taking a team from 6 to 10 wins. Or from 9 to 14 wins. Which is esssentialy what Allen did. Bills are at best an average team without Allen. It’s impossible to say for sure, but based on how Huntley played last year, I’d say that the Tavens with Henry and Huntley are an 11 win team. So same as with Jackson. 
 

Inly my opinion of course, but I think Allen adds more worth to the Bills than Jackson adds to the Ravens. 
 

I guess we’ll see what the writers collective opinion is in a couple weeks. 
 

 

There's no good reason to believe this. The Ravens offense has historically fallen off a cliff any time Lamar has been out (scoring roughly half as many points per game) and Huntley's record with Baltimore in games he played significant snaps was 4-8. If you take Baltimore's 15 points per game average with Huntley as their guy, they would have won roughly 6 games. And that was 15 points a game with Justin Tucker being automatic as a kicker; Baltimore's defense/Tucker scored 47% of the team's points in Huntley's games vs. scoring 17% of the points this year. It's probably more likely that Baltimore would have been competing for the #1 overall pick without Lamar this year than winning 12 games IMO.

 

Of course Buffalo would have been dramatically worse without Josh as well. Hard to say which team would have been worse without their QB since we fortunately haven't really had to play without Josh in a long time but I suspect we'd be terrible without him too.

[H2o]

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

That's not how it works 

 

MVP and all pro have different criteria... One is statistically the best regular season quarterback and one is the most valuable player to his team

 

Yes they overlapped sometimes but they're not linked

The only time the 1st team All Pro QB has not won the MVP, was when Adrian Peterson got the award in 2012 over the last 13 years. It is the same voters as the All Pro teams making the choices for these awards. That is how it works. 

9 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

Just curious why you think the 1st all pro is the same as mvp. 
 

A qb with a losing record could be the 1st team all pro but could never be considered the most valuable player. Ie, a team that lost 10 games with a great qb could just as easily lose 10 games with a mediocre qb. 
 

Value means adding worth. Taking a team from 6 to 10 wins. Or from 9 to 14 wins. Which is esssentialy what Allen did. Bills are at best an average team without Allen. It’s impossible to say for sure, but based on how Huntley played last year, I’d say that the Tavens with Henry and Huntley are an 11 win team. So same as with Jackson. 
 

Inly my opinion of course, but I think Allen adds more worth to the Bills than Jackson adds to the Ravens. 
 

I guess we’ll see what the writers collective opinion is in a couple weeks. 
 

 

I don't think they are the same award. I know it is the same people voting for both awards. The only time the 1st team All Pro QB has not won the NFL MVP in the last 13 years is when Adrian Peterson got the award in 2012. This has nothing to do with my personal opinions or views of either QB. This is the system, and it is what it is. 

Edited Sunday at 03:14 PM by H2o

[DCOrange]

2 hours ago, Albanybillsbacker said:

The game tonight shows why Lamar isn’t the MVP.  Pittsburgh didn’t sell out to stop Lamar.  They sold out to stop Henry and still failed at doing it.  

Could be because they actually did sell out to stop Lamar and Baltimore used that against them. For example, look at Henry's long TD run where several of Pittsburgh's defenders got caught out of position because they thought Lamar was keeping the ball and that allowed the gigantic hole for Henry to run through.

 

It's kind of a both scenario. Teams naturally want to stack the box, not only because of Henry but also because of Lamar. Lamar's threat as a runner is the main reason Baltimore's rushing attack has been so dynamic every year, including this season when Henry went from people thinking he may be washed up in Tennessee to arguably the best RB in the league despite Saquon rushing for 2000 yards.

[zow2]

2 hours ago, BillsFanNC said:

Josh almost certainly isn't winning MVP.

 

That's far different from never happening.  It could easily happen again.  Also, the QB after the final week who has been the betting favorite probably wins almost always.  I don't have the stats on that.  But it does seem plausible, that this season the voters felt it worthy to "split" the accolades.  Sounds like Peter King is one of the voters who did that.  Lamar gets first team All-Pro status, it's a more stats based honor.  Josh gets MVP.

 

[jcamm1966]

So over the MVP thing , it's playoff time nothing else matters

[BillsFanNC]

8 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

 

That's why I said almost certainly, because it has happened before albeit a very long time ago.

 

Every year since 2013 the first team all pro QB has also been the league MVP.

 

I think Josh should be MVP. I also think it's almost certain that he won't be. I hope that I'm wrong.

 

 

[BananaB]

8 hours ago, streetkings01 said:

Said it a couple weeks ago and I’ll say it again…..MVP should go to Lamar…he’s playing out of his mind this season!

Josh Allen threw 18 picks last season…that usually kill your MVP chances.

Does it really or do the talking heads just point out mistakes these days more then ever? If you watch games last year you would see a lot of INTs weren’t always Joshs fault. But these ***** idiots who they put on TV to talk about football have an opinion, and when a stat helps prove their opinion it’s like they don’t even watch the game to see what really happened. 
 

If Allen had Henry in his backfield putting up huge numbers and great numbers himself, there is no ***** way these twats  would be pushing for Allen as MVP. Not a ***** chance. Lamar gets more hype then any QB I ever seen, 8 all pros on the team and they somehow think he’s more valuable to the Ravens then Josh is to the Bills… Yeah ok

[UKBillFan]

1 hour ago, DCOrange said:

There's no good reason to believe this. The Ravens offense has historically fallen off a cliff any time Lamar has been out (scoring roughly half as many points per game) and Huntley's record with Baltimore in games he played significant snaps was 4-8. If you take Baltimore's 15 points per game average with Huntley as their guy, they would have won roughly 6 games. And that was 15 points a game with Justin Tucker being automatic as a kicker; Baltimore's defense/Tucker scored 47% of the team's points in Huntley's games vs. scoring 17% of the points this year. It's probably more likely that Baltimore would have been competing for the #1 overall pick without Lamar this year than winning 12 games IMO.

 

Of course Buffalo would have been dramatically worse without Josh as well. Hard to say which team would have been worse without their QB since we fortunately haven't really had to play without Josh in a long time but I suspect we'd be terrible without him too.

 

I think I'm right in saying Lamar hasn't missed games since Henry arrived. I think he would offset Lamar's absence somewhat - not to win a ring, but to help Baltimore to the post season. Certainly having Josh Johnson as backup QB would hurt them badly; if they had someone like Fields in that role it would increase their chances to.

 

Whereas, with Josh down, I don't think anyone would be able to pick up and carry the Bills to the same extent.

[Best Williams Available]

The problem as I see it is that almost no one, in hindsight, views Lamar’s performance last year as MVP worthy. But it happened and to self-correct they now have the ammunition to justify Lamar as MVP again. The moving goal posts are frustrating to Allen proponents. Some voters don’t want to just give it to Josh because it muddies the waters further. They probably see this self correction as being required to keep things on (or back on) the right track, even if it means Lamar has 3, knowing Josh will get one some year.

[zow2]

Somehow this season having fewer losses means nothing for MVP, when last year it meant everything.  (2 fewer if you assume the Bills would've beaten NE had they played the regulars).