MVP hype for Allen

[TrentEdwardsCheckDownOn4th]

4 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

John Elway won it in 1987 when Joe Montana was the All Pro QB. That's the only time aside from the Co-MVP situation.

Interesting thanks.  I missed that. So there is still a chance then. 

[Billsfanatic8989]

9 minutes ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

 

Josh will be in the hall. I have zero doubt

Unfortunately...he needs awards. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

15 minutes ago, AllenMania said:

The funny thing is that these same voters have several of Lamar teammates for All Pro while they  only have Josh from the Bills. 

Not sure what it is, but there seems to be something else at work, but the talking heads could be it.

[GolfandBills]

14 minutes ago, Billznut said:

The tide has been changing the last 3-4 weeks unfortunately. I’ve posted that numerous times in this thread that it looked like this was coming for various reasons and even after being shot down by mods and some of the resident geniuses here, it’s now looking more official that Josh is going to get screwed. It’s sad and unfair to him. Hopefully this just puts an even bigger chip on his shoulder and he takes it out on everyone on the field over the next few weeks. 

Allen sitting 4th quarters, bad game against NE, and sitting week 18 kills his chances.  Thats almost a couple games missed of time 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I guess the fact the Ravens have 7 All Pros and the Bills have no one else and the Bills had the Superior W/L All season means nothing! JEEZ Anyone who's being honest can watch both teams play and see Josh is working with much less and got it done.

[Billsfanatic8989]

It's so strange because Lamar is a 1st ballot HOFer with three mvp awards. Allen is 50/50 at best without any MVP's.

 

Yet....their regular season stats aren't much different. And Allen has better postseason stats.

 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

2 minutes ago, GolfandBills said:

Allen sitting 4th quarters, bad game against NE, and sitting week 18 kills his chances.  Thats almost a couple games missed of time 

And, it shouldn't matter, unfortunately we have a bunch of people who only care about who has the best stats without context.

[Billsfanatic8989]

1 minute ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

I guess the fact the Ravens have 7 All Pros and the Bills have no one else and the Bills had the Superior W/L All season means nothing! JEEZ Anyone who's being honest can watch both teams play and see Josh is working with much less and got it done.

Lamar winning MVP isn't a robbery or anything. He is deserving.

 

Allen did have better stats last year. But the interceptions hurt him.

 

 

[UKBillFan]

1 minute ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

And, it shouldn't matter, unfortunately we have a bunch of people who only care about who has the best stats without context.

 

Pity that wasn't the case last year.

7 minutes ago, GolfandBills said:

Allen sitting 4th quarters, bad game against NE, and sitting week 18 kills his chances.  Thats almost a couple games missed of time 

 

I said at the time the New England game really hurt him. People didn't really seem to believe it.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

2 minutes ago, Billsfanatic8989 said:

Lamar winning MVP isn't a robbery or anything. He is deserving.

 

Allen did have better stats last year. But the interceptions hurt him.

 

 

I completely disagree, i've made my arguments elsewhere it is robbery when you look at it logically and not statistically

[Kirby Jackson]

Honestly, Lamar is certainly deserving of MVP this year. He absolutely was not last year when he received 49 of 50 votes. That’s the rub. The all-pro vote leads me to believe that Lamar will be named MVP for the 3rd time. That’s dumb. Hopefully that will be the fuel for Josh to go God Mode in the playoffs.

[Chaos]

I am sure it is discussed earlier in the thread.  Is there an agreed up definition of "most valuable". 

In other sports outside of the USA, the term "player of the year" is more common than "most valuable".

It seems like Bills fans (me included) want to deduct points from Jackson, for having a better supporting cast than Allen. But I am not sure that is reasonable. 

It seems to me that the currency in the NFL for success is "wins".   And that the "most valuable" player is the player whose season would have contributed the most wins to any NFL whose roster they were added too.  Its a complicated task to assess all 32 teams.   For example, would either Allen or Jackson, have made the lions better than 14-3, or the Eagles better than 14-3.     How many more wins would the Broncos have with either of them added? Would the Bengals have won more games with either of them rather than Burrows?  Same question for Chiefs/Mahomes.    I think if you go through the league, you find that adding either Allen or Jackson would have similar impact on any team they were added too.  

I think in the end, MVP voters are probably looking at tiebreakers between Allen and Jackson, similar to team tiebreakers.   Head to Head, and strength of schedule beeing two of them.  Jackson won the head to head.  Ravens had the 8th hardest SOS.  The Bills had the 27th hardest schedule.   Both of those pretty strongly favor Jackson as "player of the year"

But if the phrase means tell me the player i want to build my franchise around, its still Allen or 15-1 Mahomes, both far ahead of Jackson. 



 

[DCOrange]

4 minutes ago, Billsfanatic8989 said:

It's so strange because Lamar is a 1st ballot HOFer with three mvp awards. Allen is 50/50 at best without any MVP's.

 

Yet....their regular season stats aren't much different. And Allen has better postseason stats.

 

Assuming he stays healthy, Josh will probably get there even if he doesn't win any Super Bowls or MVPs. He'll need some more All Pro teams in that case though probably but provided he stays healthy, he'll probably be like top 5 all time in several statistical categories when he retires.

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, DCOrange said:

Assuming he stays healthy, Josh will probably get there even if he doesn't win any Super Bowls or MVPs. He'll need some more All Pro teams in that case though probably but provided he stays healthy, he'll probably be like top 5 all time in several statistical categories when he retires.

Peak Allen (on an individual game basis) is higher than any player in NFL history.  That alone will ensure he is added to the hall of fame. 

[DCOrange]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Honestly, Lamar is certainly deserving of MVP this year. He absolutely was not last year when he received 49 of 50 votes. That’s the rub. The all-pro vote leads me to believe that Lamar will be named MVP for the 3rd time. That’s dumb. Hopefully that will be the fuel for Josh to go God Mode in the playoffs.

Yeah, last year was just such a bad year. Like if Dak Prescott had won last year (runner up, and maybe the deserving winner), people would still look back on that like "Really guys? Dak freaking Prescott the MVP of the entire league?" but I suppose that would be better than looking at Lamar as a now 3-time MVP? There's a legitimate chance Lamar ends up with the most MVPs all time.

[asyranok]

I think this is going to be closer than we imagined just 2 weeks ago. It was clear that Allen had more-or-less equally good overall stats to Lamar, but also had the narrative. And the narrative is arguably the most important factor to get the MVP.

That narrative was driven by two factors:

1. Being clearly on a pedestal of his own from a "carrying the team on his back" perspective. Lamar had Henry, though I'd argue that Lamar was critical in getting Henry those huge stats. I'd say without having the Lamar threat to handle on runs, opening up situations for Henry, that he probably would have been more like 1,300 yards and 10 td's, rather than ~1900 yards and 16 td's.
2. Voter fatigue. People don't like seeing the same team win the superbowl every year... (looking at the Pats and Chiefs), but they also don't like giving the same person MVP every year, or multiple years in a row. Unless the person is just undeniably the one and only MVP.

But something changed around the narrative in the last week or so, I'd say. I'm hearing plenty of pundits saying that "Lamar is the MVP this year". Not "It's close. It's a toss up". Obviously seeing just as many pundits name Allen the clear MVP too, but I think it's really evened out, which I think means the winner could win by less than a 5 vote difference.

I'll be really happy if Lamar wins. He's my favorite player ever (besides Todd Heap, oddly enough). But I am going to be really happy if Allen wins MVP too. Allen is my favorite non-Raven player and has been since the draft. Bills are the only other team I'd root for any given week. So it's a win either way.

 

Edited 15 hours ago by asyranok

[HopelessNJBuffaloFan]

So tired of the MVP chat. When is this finally done??? Allen is NOT winning it as Lamar had a better year. We move on and try to get to a SB!

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

8 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Honestly, Lamar is certainly deserving of MVP this year. He absolutely was not last year when he received 49 of 50 votes. That’s the rub. The all-pro vote leads me to believe that Lamar will be named MVP for the 3rd time. That’s dumb. Hopefully that will be the fuel for Josh to go God Mode in the playoffs.

No

[DCOrange]

2 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

No

Kirby can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing his point is that Lamar and Allen are both deserving this year. That's objectively true.

[DapperCam]

19 minutes ago, Billsfanatic8989 said:

Unfortunately...he needs awards. 

If he continues to lead the league in TDs every year and has a long career he’ll get in without the awards. Brees still gets in, even without his Super Bowl.

 

But at that point you’d have to ask yourself…why won’t anybody give Allen some awards?