MVP hype for Allen

[dave mcbride]

15 hours ago, mjt328 said:

 

The main problem with EVERY SINGLE pro-Lamar Jackson argument is simply he won the 2023 MVP award based on complete opposite logic.

 

Jackson's statistics last year were totally average.  #9 in total touchdowns.  #15 in yards.  The reason he won MVP was because of his excellent performance in big games down the stretch and the way he solely carried his team to the best record in the AFC with limited surrounding weapons.  

 

This year, the guy who clearly fits that bill is Josh Allen.  Loses all of his top weapons, and arguably puts together the Bills best regular season yet.  Anyone who watches the games, knows that Patrick Mahomes has not been carrying his team.  And truthfully neither is Jackson.  His stats are heavily inflated due to the attention required to stop Derrick Henry.  

 

Yes, Jackson is a great player.  And his pure numbers are absolutely better than Allen this year.  But his numbers were significantly WORSE last year, and the voters went with other criteria to give him the award.  If stats had been the primary driver for last year's MVP, then Allen probably should have won and Dak Prescott should have been the runner-up.  And this year if we are back to making stats the biggest factor, maybe Joe Burrow deserves some heavy consideration as well.

 

It's not that Jackson's performance isn't MVP-worthy.  It's that consistency demands he SHOULD NOT win it this year.

Honestly—and this won’t be popular—I think the MVP this season is essentially a three-way tie between Allen, Jackson, and Burrow. Burrow is having a ridiculously great season. With average qb play, that Bengals team would be 4-12 right now.

Edited December 29, 2024 by dave mcbride

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Nobody in the league has wins like Allen and the Bills do. Chiefs and Lions victories are what should and in the end will set Allen apart. Also the four game historic stretch. Chiefs would be working on a perfect season if it were not for Allen's heroics. Nobody else was good enough to be the Chiefs and that includes Lamar. Allen and the Bills beat two teams with a combined 21-1 record. Probably the first time in history that has happened. 

 

Only way Allen should lose the MVP at this point is if the Ravens finish ahead of the Bills in the standings and that isn't happening. 

[stevewin]

12 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Take out Burrow and enter the next player to do something great and that's the next hot take by sports media. They're really making a circus about MVP. 

This is what worries me most - how  the actual 50 voters react to all this nonsense.  I believe there is a high percentage of stupid people in the world,, and that would apply to talking heads and media types as well.  I still believe there will be some percentage that will try to be 'cute' and vote the non-obvious choice.  At this point if the vote actually gets split more by some idiots voting Burrow or whatever random media fave has a great game today I don't even know how it will affect Josh's chances

Edited December 29, 2024 by stevewin

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

It is surprising who some of the MVP voters are. I mean Emanual Acho? Why don't they just give Nick Wright a vote?

 

Last year was embarrassing. If ever there was a year to split the first place votes up equally between 3+ players it was last year. Dak, Allen, Lamar, Hill, CMC, Purdy all should have received some combination of 2+ votes. Instead we got a 49-1 vote for Lamar. The worst statistical season by an MVP in 20+ years and the guy wins one vote shy of a unanimous vote.

[MDH]

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Honestly—and this won’t be popular—I think the MVP this season is essentially a three-way tie between Allen, Jackson, and Burrow. Burrow is having a ridiculously great season. With average qb play, that Bengals team would be 4-12 right now.

He’s a fantastic QB, one of the best, but its easier to put up those types of numbers when your D isn’t helping and you’re forced to throw it 40+ times - and hence, the gaudy counting stats (the best WR in the NFL and best WR combo don’t hurt either.)  His EPA/play numbers aren’t better than Josh’s (its not even close) and the offense doesn’t score as much. Burrow isn’t ahead of Allen in QBR either. He’s just ahead in counting stats- in large part - because he has 150 more attempts. Thats 33% more than Josh. 

 

That said, he’s more deserving than Lamar. If it’s just about counting stats and not team success, Burrow has Lamar beaten. If it’s about a combination of the two and the value to your team’s success…it’s Allen. 
 

People are suffering from shiny object syndrome (just like last year) and I think it’ll likely cost Allen the award when he sits the final week.  
 

Though really if the voters are going to be consistent with how they awarded it last year, neither counting nor advanced metrics should matter, it’s only about the best record in football even if its largely because of the D - Then Mahomes is the MVP (he actually has better numbers than Lamar last year…) Yes, I kid with this last point.

[Process]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

Honestly—and this won’t be popular—I think the MVP this season is essentially a three-way tie between Allen, Jackson, and Burrow. Burrow is having a ridiculously great season. With average qb play, that Bengals team would be 4-12 right now.

So to be clear, his value is taking a 4 win team that didn't make the playoffs, and making them an 8 win team that didn't make the playoffs. 

[Scott7975]

14 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Is that the player, the scheme or a mixture of both?  How do you think the threat of Lamar and Henry play into that particular stat? 

 

I highly doubt many would rather have Zay Flowers and Rashod Bateman over Khalil Shakir and Amari Cooper.  

 

Flowers is actually a better version of Shakir. Its close but he is better. Bateman over Cooper, I dunno but Bateman has played in that offense for 4 years now. Cooper got here not too long ago and has been injured. He doesnt even have any real chemistry with Josh yet. Skill wise I would likely take Cooper. Situation wise, Id rather have a guy thats been here a while. To date our #1 receiver is still Hollins who is nothing but a special teams cast off.

 

The threat of having to defend Lamar rushing, Henry rushing play heavily into receivers getting wide open af and make Lamars job far easier than Josh. Nobody is sitting there throwing 8 man boxes all game against Cook. Cook is good but he isnt Henry. I'm not trying to discredit Lamar. He is having his best season, but its a simple fact the guy has had it easier. Just looking at the recent Houston game the guy had 66 air yards but still had 168 yards passing.

[Rew]

4 minutes ago, Process said:

So to be clear, his value is taking a 4 win team that didn't make the playoffs, and making them an 8 win team that didn't make the playoffs. 

I think Burrow being in the conversation would hinge on them making the playoffs.  If he is viewed as single handed bringing them from a bottom 5 team to the playoffs while leading the league in many stats he will get some mentions. 

 

Ultimately, he is doing it with some incredible weapons.  I don't buy the argument of "it's all him".  With the catches that those two are capable of making, any top 10 quarterback would put up gaudy numbers when playing catch up every week.

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 hour ago, stevewin said:

This is what worries me most - how  the actual 50 voters react to all this nonsense.  I believe there is a high percentage of stupid people in the world,, and that would apply to talking heads and media types as well.  I still believe there will be some percentage that will try to be 'cute' and vote the non-obvious choice.  At this point if the vote actually gets split more by some idiots voting Burrow or whatever random media fave has a great game today I don't even know how it will affect Josh's chances

When Burrow’s team doesn’t make the playoffs next week, he should get exactly zero first place votes for MVP.

[boater]

Does anyone feel there is an organized hype-machine pushing Lamar Jackson as MVP? A systematic propaganda campaign?

 

It started after the Houston game. My FB feed and Twitter are bombarded with content comparing Allen and Jackson, and declaring Jackson the winner. It's like the NFL-Media establishment wants Jackson and are lobbying for him.

 

Unless Josh does something spectacular the next two games--it will be Jackson.

[dave mcbride]

33 minutes ago, Process said:

So to be clear, his value is taking a 4 win team that didn't make the playoffs, and making them an 8 win team that didn't make the playoffs. 

No. There are 22 starting players on a team and of course injuries etc. people need to take off the homer goggles and recognize how good he has been this season. They had a ton of ridiculous close losses that were in no way Burrow’s fault.

27 minutes ago, Rew said:

I think Burrow being in the conversation would hinge on them making the playoffs.  If he is viewed as single handed bringing them from a bottom 5 team to the playoffs while leading the league in many stats he will get some mentions. 

 

Ultimately, he is doing it with some incredible weapons.  I don't buy the argument of "it's all him".  With the catches that those two are capable of making, any top 10 quarterback would put up gaudy numbers when playing catch up every week.

It’s of course not all him, but his throwing and diagnosing this year has been off the charts great.

[Blank Stare]

Finally, someone in the media gets it. Kurt Warner just made the point on NFL Network we’ve all been making here. Why is everyone trying to make it about stats this year when last year it was about wins/seeding? Context matters and Josh has been critical for the Bills this year. Without him, they are nothing. 
 

Not to take anything away from Lamar who has had one helluva season. But Josh doesn’t have a Henry or an Andrews. Hell, I’d maybe even venture to say Josh doesn’t have a Flowers. 

[Process]

10 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

No. There are 22 starting players on a team and of course injuries etc. people need to take off the homer goggles and recognize how good he has been this season. They had a ton of ridiculous close losses that were in no way Burrow’s fault.

It’s of course not all him, but his throwing and diagnosing this year has been off the charts great.

The discussion is not how good he has been. He has been great. 

 

We are talking about the Most Valuable Player award. 

 

His value is taking a 4 win team and making them an 8 win team.

 

Suggesting he deserves MVP is absolutely ridiculous.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Process said:

The discussion is not how good he has been. He has been great. 

 

We are talking about the Most Valuable Player award. 

 

His value is taking a 4 win team and making them an 8 win team.

 

Suggesting he deserves MVP is absolutely ridiculous.

I’d argue that in terms of WAR/VORP, he’s the equal of anyone. That should be the guiding factor, but of course it won’t be. It’ll go to either Jackson or Allen for sure.

[Motorin']

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Nobody in the league has wins like Allen and the Bills do. Chiefs and Lions victories are what should and in the end will set Allen apart. Also the four game historic stretch. Chiefs would be working on a perfect season if it were not for Allen's heroics. Nobody else was good enough to be the Chiefs and that includes Lamar. Allen and the Bills beat two teams with a combined 21-1 record. Probably the first time in history that has happened. 

 

Only way Allen should lose the MVP at this point is if the Ravens finish ahead of the Bills in the standings and that isn't happening. 

 

Lamar has played 100 more snaps this year. 

 

For the last three days the media has been comparing Lamar's stats having played nearly two extra games worth of plays. 

 

I could care less about the MVP. But the stupidity being expressed for biased reasons is infuriating. 

 

[UKBillFan]

19 minutes ago, Blank Stare said:

Finally, someone in the media gets it. Kurt Warner just made the point on NFL Network we’ve all been making here. Why is everyone trying to make it about stats this year when last year it was about wins/seeding? Context matters and Josh has been critical for the Bills this year. Without him, they are nothing. 
 

Not to take anything away from Lamar who has had one helluva season. But Josh doesn’t have a Henry or an Andrews. Hell, I’d maybe even venture to say Josh doesn’t have a Flowers. 

 

Let me guess - he was shouted down?

[Blank Stare]

2 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

Let me guess - he was shouted down?

I wouldn’t necessarily say shouted down, but a couple guys (McCoy and Mooch) picked Lamar. Then Rich flipped it to a “how is Saquon +1600” discussion. Mccoys argument was that he’s “just playing the position better than anyone else right now”, whereas Mooch was stats. 

[UKBillFan]

7 minutes ago, Blank Stare said:

I wouldn’t necessarily say shouted down, but a couple guys (McCoy and Mooch) picked Lamar. Then Rich flipped it to a “how is Saquon +1600” discussion. Mccoys argument was that he’s “just playing the position better than anyone else right now”, whereas Mooch was stats. 

 

Thanks. I can't help but feel @boater is right. Everything is now gearing for Lamar to be given MVP without any pushback. In all likliehood, Josh will be given another vanilla game plan and told to protect himself (which is preciesely the right thing to do), he'll look average at best - understandably - and the push will become greater as Lamar has to play tough as he's in a fight for the division due to defeats to the Raiders and Browns, which seem to have been forgotten.

[All_Pro_Bills]

41 minutes ago, Process said:

The discussion is not how good he has been. He has been great. 

 

We are talking about the Most Valuable Player award. 

 

His value is taking a 4 win team and making them an 8 win team.

 

Suggesting he deserves MVP is absolutely ridiculous.

Take away Chase and Higgins and swap WR1 and WR2 with the Bills and forecast Borrow's 2024 performance.

Joe is just doing more with more and better WRs. Without them, no MVP talk.

[Punch]

Several writers covering the Bills including Joe Buscaglia have intimated this week that its very important for the Bills players that Josh wins MVP and they expect to see a push for him to go out with a bang. The weather complicates that effort and also McDermott needs to keep health at the forefront, but I expect to see them end on a high note.

 

Go Bills.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Punch