Yesterday was a coaching clinic

[HappyDays]

37 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Was it just me or did you get the sense that Allen spent most of the first half reading deep to short and the Chiefs were simply not going to allow it to happen downfield?

 

The gameplan was definitely aggressive which I liked actually. Really on both sides of the ball. You don't beat the Chiefs sitting on your heels, you have to attack attack attack and live with the result knowing you either took it to them or went down swinging. But regarding your question it's hard to say because we had a ton of 3rd and longs so those reads are naturally going to be downfield.

 

My biggest problem with Brady in this game was the offense had trouble staying on schedule. Our excellent 3rd down efficiency made the operation look a lot better than it really was. I just did the math myself to make sure my eye test was accurate. We had 4 1st down plays that went for 10+ yards. On the other 24 1st downs (excluding our two TD runs) we averaged 1.6 yards per play. I know the 4 big plays count, I'm not discounting those. But that is a really difficult world to live in where you are basically playing in 2nd and 8.5 for the entire game. Ultimately it falls on the OC to do better.

[WotAGuy]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

The gameplan was definitely aggressive which I liked actually. Really on both sides of the ball. You don't beat the Chiefs sitting on your heels, you have to attack attack attack and live with the result knowing you either took it to them or went down swinging. But regarding your question it's hard to say because we had a ton of 3rd and longs so those reads are naturally going to be downfield.

 

My biggest problem with Brady in this game was the offense had trouble staying on schedule. Our excellent 3rd down efficiency made the operation look a lot better than it really was. I just did the math myself to make sure my eye test was accurate. We had 4 1st down plays that went for 10+ yards. On the other 24 1st downs (excluding our two TD runs) we averaged 1.6 yards per play. I know the 4 big plays count, I'm not discounting those. But that is a really difficult world to live in where you are basically playing in 2nd and 8.5 for the entire game. Ultimately it falls on the OC to do better.

I don’t know if there’s a stat for 3rd down distance to go, but it seemed like there was a very high average for the Bills in this one. 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

The gameplan was definitely aggressive which I liked actually. Really on both sides of the ball. You don't beat the Chiefs sitting on your heels, you have to attack attack attack and live with the result knowing you either took it to them or went down swinging. But regarding your question it's hard to say because we had a ton of 3rd and longs so those reads are naturally going to be downfield.

 

My biggest problem with Brady in this game was the offense had trouble staying on schedule. Our excellent 3rd down efficiency made the operation look a lot better than it really was. I just did the math myself to make sure my eye test was accurate. We had 4 1st down plays that went for 10+ yards. On the other 24 1st downs (excluding our two TD runs) we averaged 1.6 yards per play. I know the 4 big plays count, I'm not discounting those. But that is a really difficult world to live in where you are basically playing in 2nd and 8.5 for the entire game. Ultimately it falls on the OC to do better.

Absolutely we were not great on first down a lot 

 

BUT at the end of the day that is better than abandoning the run and making Josh play hero all game 

 

Remember the first 3-4 years here when he was our leading rusher.. we've done everything to make sure that never happens again 

 

And sticking with handing it off to your running backs even on a bad day is stuff that even Tom Brady did 

 

Would I like to see some more creativity in the run game? Yes...  But at least they didn't abandon it

 

 

Just now, WotAGuy said:

I don’t know if there’s a stat for 3rd down distance to go, but it seemed like there was a very high average for the Bills in this one. 

Yes, the one say I would say about Brady's game plan was it put us in second and long a good amount... 

 

But at the end of the day not abandoning the run kept our offensive line going forward and not backwards in protection every play 

 

They still get to assert more dominance even if the statistics weren't there.. it's wearing out the defense more 

 

I would like more creativity on some early down runs

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

BUT at the end of the day that is better than abandoning the run and making Josh play hero all game 

 

I didn't want us to abandon the run. I am a believer in committing to it even if it fails early on. That was something I really hated about Daboll actually, he would get away from the run even in close games and pass rushers were able to just pin their ears back. I'm not even saying I know the solution, which is why I'm on my couch instead of on an NFL sideline. I just know averaging 8.6 yards to go on 2nd down is a really poor result and Brady owns that result.

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I didn't want us to abandon the run. I am a believer in committing to it even if it fails early on. That was something I really hated about Daboll actually, he would get away from the run even in close games and pass rushers were able to just pin their ears back. I'm not even saying I know the solution, which is why I'm on my couch instead of on an NFL sideline. I just know averaging 8.6 yards to go on 2nd down is a really poor result and Brady owns that result.

In a well played game that certainly stuck out to me during the game for sure 

 

But the game plan top to bottom defensively and offensively without RT, TE and WR2 was something I really thought was very good to see

 

The team did not look or play afraid... And sean and babich had a good read most of the night ... They weren't playing catch up they were dictating 

 

Pat had to work really hard for a lot of completions

Edited November 20 by Buffalo716

[Simon]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I just know averaging 8.6 yards to go on 2nd down is a really poor result and Brady owns that result.

 

I wonder how much of that was a function of James Cook inexplicably spending much of the last 2 1/2 qrtrs on the sideline.

I'm still suspicious that he hurt himself on the 2nd TD run.

[HappyDays]

Just now, Simon said:

 

I wonder how much of that was a function of James Cook inexplicably spending much of the last 2 1/2 qrtrs on the sideline.

I'm still suspicious that he hurt himself on the 2nd TD run.

 

Could be something to that. His runs weren't really going anywhere on 1st down when he was in the game but maybe if we had stuck with it there would have been more efficiency as the game went along. We even tried getting a few passes to RBs on 1st downs but the Chiefs were sniffing those out right away too. I don't know. I can't sit here and say Brady was too run happy or too pass happy or was too aggressive or was too conservative or didn't use enough play action. Everything we tried on 1st down just wasn't working except for four big plays. Feels like that down has been a problem for us all year.

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Could be something to that. His runs weren't really going anywhere on 1st down when he was in the game but maybe if we had stuck with it there would have been more efficiency as the game went along. We even tried getting a few passes to RBs on 1st downs but the Chiefs were sniffing those out right away too. I don't know. I can't sit here and say Brady was too run happy or too pass happy or was too aggressive or was too conservative or didn't use enough play action. Everything we tried on 1st down just wasn't working except for four big plays. Feels like that down has been a problem for us all year.

See I come at this differently.  I know it’s normally the reverse but Sunday was a game where I would’ve started with Ray Davis or Ty Johnson to batter down and tire out the front seven a bit and then I would’ve switched up to Cook.  Again the tendency is usually the opposite, get the defense tired from chasing and then hit them with the power back - but with the Chiefs I’d have done it in reverse.

[f0neguy]

I’m sure it’s been noted earlier but the Chiefs have a really good run defense.  So even though we weren’t doing a lot on those runs we forced them to respect that we were running the ball. They couldn’t just tee off every down.

[GaryPinC]

23 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

See I come at this differently.  I know it’s normally the reverse but Sunday was a game where I would’ve started with Ray Davis or Ty Johnson to batter down and tire out the front seven a bit and then I would’ve switched up to Cook.  Again the tendency is usually the opposite, get the defense tired from chasing and then hit them with the power back - but with the Chiefs I’d have done it in reverse.

With Ty getting at least 30-40% of those runs.  He hits heavy and in a hurry.

[BADOLBILZ]

On 11/18/2024 at 6:39 PM, WotAGuy said:

Your title says one thing but your post is all about Josh making the play on his own. 

 

 

Yeah it wasn't a coaching clinic, IMO.   Brady's offensive game plan didn't really work like it was drawn up.   Allen just put them on his back on 3rd and 4th downs.   That put enough points on the board and kept KC's offense off the field(only 9 possessions).   The defensive plan was pretty good but not exceptional.   There were a couple drives where the Chiefs moved the ball with relative ease just like they did in the divisional game.   The biggest difference, IMO, was the Bills defense was healthy.    

 

The rosters are pretty evenly matched and are so familiar with each other now that they have taken on the nature of a divisional matchup.   Even when one team plays notably better........like KC going thru the Bills injury riddled defense like a hot knife in the divisional matchup last year........the game ends up close.  

[Big Turk]

23 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Defensive coaching I thought was outstanding. The whole DL knew how to contain Mahomes and was 100% disciplined in excecuting that plan. Back 7 players were keeping an eye on Kelce leaking out of the backfield - a player like Cam Lewis clicking and closing from depth to bring down a HoF player on 3rd down is a testament to coaching. We were willing to play man instead of doing the safe thing and give up cheap yards out of fear. Very impressed by McDermott and Babich in this one. The Chiefs last TD drive is the only one where I thought the coaching let us down by playing it too safe but I'm not gonna give them too much grief over it. Sign me up right now to hold the Chiefs to 21 points in every game until the end of Mahomes' career.

 

The offensive coaching however I feel a little more up and down about. 30 points against a great defense is the headline, but man we were in a ton of 3rd and longs and it was really just miraculous Josh Allen plays keeping a lot of those drives alive. That's a QB win, not a coaching win. Run game never got going and we were seemingly always getting 0-2 yards at most on our 1st down runs - I know Chiefs run defense is great but the OC's job is find some success there and give his offense some manageable 2nd/3rd downs. The final series 3rd and 2 inside zone right towards Chris Jones was an inexcusable mistake that again was saved by a Josh Allen hero play. On the plus side for Brady I really liked our blitz pickups and willingness to be aggressive when KC brought pressure. That'll scare any DC out of blitzes real quick. Having Cooper 1v1 outside is a real advantage in that respect and Brady to his credit clearly understands that.

 

 

Bills have gotten back to converting 3rd downs at an extremely high level the last 5 games or so after really struggling the first half of the season.

 

Definitely been noticeable. 3rd and longs happened more than normal because our run game couldn't get going.

[appoo]

4 hours ago, MJS said:

I think 20 years from now a lot of fans will be looking back with fondness on this team, including McDermott and Beane. McDermott gets just WAY too much criticism. He is a really good coach.

 

Most of the time fans are just throwing out vitriol his way without even understanding what they are watching or the nature of NFL football. Like the idiotic claims that he is conservative when he has shown time and time again that he is aggressive and follows the analytics as close as any coach in the NFL.

Yea I agree. And to be clear I wasn't claiming anything bad. 

 

Chiefs won first down fairly consistently against the Bills O, and they did it more often against then Bills D. That's usually a recipe for losing. But the Chiefs have the best run D in the league for a reason, and I actually credit Brady for sticking with it, knowing it opens things up for Josh regardless. 

 

But Josh carried the offense on the money downs. He's why Brady can just pound for 1-2 yards on first down to keep KC honest

[Saxum]

7 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

The Chiefs only scored one touchdown in the second half and had 259 yards of offense

 

It was a tremendous coaching effort across the board with a great game plan ... Our defense was controlling the majority of the game not there offense

 

If there's one thing you should learn its that Joe Brady will continue to run the ball whether it's successful or not because it keeps the defense honest 

 

And wears them out 

 

It is harder to wear them down when they play 5 man DL but Bills have shown backup OL players can perform so maybe they can occasionally substitute lineman to keep them fresh and strong.

[Saxum]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The rosters are pretty evenly matched and are so familiar with each other now that they have taken on the nature of a divisional matchup.   Even when one team plays notably better........like KC going thru the Bills injury riddled defense like a hot knife in the divisional matchup last year........the game ends up close.  

 

KC sometimes plays like someone not wanting to make full effort for they do not feel need to do it.

[GunnerBill]

It was a massive coaching win for the Bills on Sunday.

 

Of course the play of the year was Josh Allen pulling on the cape. But (with the exception of the dumb challenge) the previous 58 minutes that got us to that point was a Bills plan that had got the better of KC on both sides of the ball. Specifically:

 

- found ways to pressure Mahomes with a front 4 without, for the most part, letting him escape the pocket. That takes such detailed planning and disciplined execution;

 

- mixed in more man coverage than I have ever seen us use against the Chiefs. 30.8% according to the Athletic;

 

- protection schemes that kept Allen clean for the most part - as @Buffalo716 mentioned - that doesn't just happen that is relentless planning all week "if we get this and we see that then this is our response in protection";

 

- attacked the blitz better than we ever have against KC. Said it yesterday but in previous meetings at times it felt like our plan when they blitzed Allen was survive. Just dump it off, or throw it away, live to play anothet down. On Sunday they saw Spags blitzes as a chance to attack the back end. Loved it from Brady and Josh. 

 

By contrast:

- Spags struggled to create negative plays even when sending 5, 6 and on a couple of occasions 7 guys;

 

- the Chiefs tried to confuse Josh on the backend by a lot of disguised zone - as Josh talked about on the 4th and 2. And the Bills were wise to it; 

 

- Andy Reid said himself he got away from the run too early and that was the Bills being brave enough to show a heavier box, even if they dropped out of it multiple times into cover 2; 

 

- the Chiefs could not get Kelce and Hopkins going at all who have been the big peices of the passing game the past 3 weeks. 

 

 

I give a ton of credit to McDermott and his young coordinators. I think in the 8 meetings of this Josh vs Pat series of Bills - Chiefs games that goes down with the 2021 regular season game as the second time the Bills coaches have conclusively won the coaching battle. I know for some they won't get credit until they do it in January, and I understand that. But man that was, as the thread says, a clinic from this staff.

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

It was a massive coaching win for the Bills on Sunday.

 

Of course the play of the year was Josh Allen pulling on the cape. But (with the exception of the dumb challenge) the previous 58 minutes that got us to that point was a Bills plan that had got the better of KC on both sides of the ball. Specifically:

 

- found ways to pressure Mahomes with a front 4 without, for the most part, letting him escape the pocket. That takes such detailed planning and disciplined execution;

 

- mixed in more man coverage than I have ever seen us use against the Chiefs. 30.8% according to the Athletic;

 

- protection schemes that kept Allen clean for the most part - as @Buffalo716 mentioned - that doesn't just happen that is relentless planning all week "if we get this and we see that then this is our response in protection";

 

- attacked the blitz better than we ever have against KC. Said it yesterday but in previous meetings at times it felt like our plan when they blitzed Allen was survive. Just dump it off, or throw it away, live to play anothet down. On Sunday they saw Spags blitzes as a chance to attack the back end. Loved it from Brady and Josh. 

 

By contrast:

- Spags struggled to create negative plays even when sending 5, 6 and on a couple of occasions 7 guys;

 

- the Chiefs tried to confuse Josh on the backend by a lot of disguised zone - as Josh talked about on the 4th and 2. And the Bills were wise to it; 

 

- Andy Reid said himself he got away from the run too early and that was the Bills being brave enough to show a heavier box, even if they dropped out of it multiple times into cover 2; 

 

- the Chiefs could not get Kelce and Hopkins going at all who have been the big peices of the passing game the past 3 weeks. 

 

 

I give a ton of credit to McDermott and his young coordinators. I think in the 8 meetings of this Josh vs Pat series of Bills - Chiefs games that goes down with the 2021 regular season game as the second time the Bills coaches have conclusively won the coaching battle. I know for some they won't get credit until they do it in January, and I understand that. But man that was, as the thread says, a clinic from this staff.

 

Where do you think the passing offense can evolve forward coming off a bye week and down the stretch?

 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Where do you think the passing offense can evolve forward coming off a bye week and down the stretch?

 

 

I think they have to keep showing they are willing to attack outside. It will open up those spaces that the Bills really want to attack in the middle of the field even more. I still want to see more Kincaid vertical when he returns. They managed to find that element when Brady took over last year but his depth of target has been down again this season. I know that is influenced some by the increase in his usage on screens and other catch and run concepts at the line but I want to see them find a way to get him vertical in that 10-20 yard range and I think spreading defenses out more horizontally my making them worry more about the Bills attacking outside will help. 

 

But we have definitely found a groove on offense in the past few weeks. Starting a bit better, putting up 30 regularly even with injuries, 3rd down conversions are up on earlier in the year. Definitely encouraging.

[Sierra Foothills]

On 11/18/2024 at 9:39 PM, Richard Noggin said:

I think McBeane has shown they're FINE with paying a drafted-and-developed #1 CB top dollar if necessary. In 2024, by contrast (due to and in part because of INSANE dead cap totals over 70 million), they aren't paying ANY DB more than an 8ish million cap hit (Taron Johnson), and the 2nd highest cap hit is effing Elam at just under 4 million.

 

Rapp and Johnson (and Bishop) are obvious locks for 2025 on their current deals, and it's VERY possible that Benford is here long term with a big time extension. Whether you like it or not, I'm afraid, they'll probably pay him. Ingram and Lewis are still under contract in 2025 for depth. Elam is of course also under contract, but clearly is not in the pipeline for an early extension or the club's 5th year option. So who knows there. Best case is he earns the opportunity to showcase himself as the de facto #2 boundary CB next year. Still need more dudes in the pipeline at CB and S tbh. 

 

On the discussion of the Bills DBs, it was ironic that Elam, who is often lauded for his press/man coverage skills was inactive. Ingram dressed but didn't get any snaps.

 

13 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Interesting from ChiefsPlanet...

 

They attribute this to copying what Harbaugh and the Chargers did to the Chiefs a few weeks before...have 2 DL on one side crash hard and bull rush forcing Mahomes to bail out of the pocket in the direction they want and then have a spy force immediate pressure on him since he is already on that side of the field he is flushing to...

 

Also some comments about how Oliver completely manhandled Trey Smith all game and saying that they don't even see Chris Jones manhandle anyone the way Oliver did to Smith...

 

 

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=356009&page=3

 

To the bolded, this is a strategy that the Ravens (John Harbaugh) employed against Josh pretty frequently in week 4.

 

[GunnerBill]

13 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The gameplan was definitely aggressive which I liked actually. Really on both sides of the ball. You don't beat the Chiefs sitting on your heels, you have to attack attack attack and live with the result knowing you either took it to them or went down swinging. But regarding your question it's hard to say because we had a ton of 3rd and longs so those reads are naturally going to be downfield.

 

My biggest problem with Brady in this game was the offense had trouble staying on schedule. Our excellent 3rd down efficiency made the operation look a lot better than it really was. I just did the math myself to make sure my eye test was accurate. We had 4 1st down plays that went for 10+ yards. On the other 24 1st downs (excluding our two TD runs) we averaged 1.6 yards per play. I know the 4 big plays count, I'm not discounting those. But that is a really difficult world to live in where you are basically playing in 2nd and 8.5 for the entire game. Ultimately it falls on the OC to do better.

 

My personal take on the 1st down runs was they were precisely to remain on schedule. I'm not saying it worked as the Bills would have hoped.... I'm sure they would have liked to be getting 3-4 yards rather than 1-2 on those runs but it felt like "I am not going to let the Chiefs force negative plays get me into 2nd and 3rd and 10 plus when you get the craziest blitzes in Spags playbook." 

 

I don't think it was about trying to set stuff up later or wear the defense out or any of those theories. I think it was simply a means of trying to avoid negative plays. I think there was a confidence that the Chiefs secondary was vulnerable especially with McDuffie not in top form and Watson injured and there would be plays to be made on 3rd down as long as we were not "behind the sticks". The thing that particularly makes me think that is the obvious solution to getting stoned running up the middle is tosses and sweeps and run plays to attack the edges. While Cook's first TD was an edge run the next drive they ran a toss where he should have been tackled in the backfield for a loss of about 5 yards and instead scampered forward, kept his balance and turned it into a short gain. After that - no more tosses - which suggests the risk of being 2nd and 15 or someone was not one Brady was willing to take.

 

They only had 3 negative plays on the day and all were for -1. Two on first down and one on second down so in that sense I think it worked, but they would have been hoping to be more effective that the 1-2 yard average on first down, no doubt. They need to look at how we crank some more yards out of 1st down (both run and pass actually) if we meet them again in January. But I think stopping the Chiefs defense from creating negative plays at the same time has to be part of that equation too.