Yesterday was a coaching clinic

[blacklabel]

I said it in a different thread but big praise for Torrence. He went 1v1 with Jones a lot more than you'd expect and he held his own. And on the 4th & 2 TD run in particular he gets the leverage on Jones and forces him right out of the play. Jones may have not had his best day out there but Torrence certainly did. 

[Beck Water]

14 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I wonder how much of that was a function of James Cook inexplicably spending much of the last 2 1/2 qrtrs on the sideline.

I'm still suspicious that he hurt himself on the 2nd TD run.

 

10 touches in the 1st half, 5 touches in the 2nd.  Certainly wasn't being used as much.   Still being run in the 3rd Q though, we just had a 3 and out, and a 6 and out prior to our drive that extended to score in the 4th.  My guess would be got dinged some on that TD drive because Ray Davis took all the RB snaps after the 2nd handoff to Cook.  Cook came back for a play in the 4Q TD drive and maybe decided he couldn't go after all (And Davis may have got dinged as that drive was Ty Johnson)
 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My personal take on the 1st down runs was they were precisely to remain on schedule. I'm not saying it worked as the Bills would have hoped.... I'm sure they would have liked to be getting 3-4 yards rather than 1-2 on those runs but it felt like "I am not going to let the Chiefs force negative plays get me into 2nd and 3rd and 10 plus when you get the craziest blitzes in Spags playbook." 

 

I don't think it was about trying to set stuff up later or wear the defense out or any of those theories. I think it was simply a means of trying to avoid negative plays. I think there was a confidence that the Chiefs secondary was vulnerable especially with McDuffie not in top form and Watson injured and there would be plays to be made on 3rd down as long as we were not "behind the sticks". The thing that particularly makes me think that is the obvious solution to getting stoned running up the middle is tosses and sweeps and run plays to attack the edges. While Cook's first TD was an edge run the next drive they ran a toss where he should have been tackled in the backfield for a loss of about 5 yards and instead scampered forward, kept his balance and turned it into a short gain. After that - no more tosses - which suggests the risk of being 2nd and 15 or someone was not one Brady was willing to take.

 

They only had 3 negative plays on the day and all were for -1. Two on first down and one on second down so in that sense I think it worked, but they would have been hoping to be more effective that the 1-2 yard average on first down, no doubt. They need to look at how we crank some more yards out of 1st down (both run and pass actually) if we meet them again in January. But I think stopping the Chiefs defense from creating negative plays at the same time has to be part of that equation too.

I think the passing chart shows the Bills were trying to attack the edges as you suggest.

 

I think the Chiefs will have a somewhat different defensive philosophy if we meet them with a healthier group of receivers.

 

I think they looked at the cast on Amari Cooper's arm and said "you got Who? catching downfield passes?" so they really choked out the short stuff.  If we have a couple guys with some success getting downfield, they won't feel that luxury.

Edited Wednesday at 03:42 PM by Beck Water

[YattaOkasan]

On 11/18/2024 at 11:13 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

Trust me when we meet them in the playoffs he'll have a spy.  Hopefully Brady can scheme that up.

Would be great cause then the man beater will work.  You often don't run spys with zone unless youre doing something upfront crazy (see below).  

18 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

As I said up thread 

 

4th and two or even third and two is a really no win situation for a spy 

 

That's why they put seven eight guys in the box... Overload Josh's brain and get him to try and hold the ball a split second more 

 

It's one thing if it was third and 7 or 4th and 7... A spy has enough room to track him down.. at 4th and 2 and Josh can go left, right , a gap left or right B Gap left or right..  that's almost too close for it to be super effective 

 

And taking someone out of coverage.. to spy would mean it would be easier for Josh to find a three yard completion 

 

You're between a rock and a hard place with that distance... You're better sitting in zone like they did while crowding the line of scrimmage or actually sending six and trying to clog all of Josh's running Lanes

Spy could get to him as others mentioned, but I think Spags didnt think as spy was necessary as they looked to be in Cover 2 with a lot of eyes on the QB.  

17 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Interesting from ChiefsPlanet...

 

They attribute this to copying what Harbaugh and the Chargers did to the Chiefs a few weeks before...have 2 DL on one side crash hard and bull rush forcing Mahomes to bail out of the pocket in the direction they want and then have a spy force immediate pressure on him since he is already on that side of the field he is flushing to...

 

Also some comments about how Oliver completely manhandled Trey Smith all game and saying that they don't even see Chris Jones manhandle anyone the way Oliver did to Smith...

 

 

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=356009&page=3

This was def something we were doing back as far back as 2022 on the taron johnson game winning interception.  If you recall on that play miller gets pressure and Mahomes rolls out to his right and Milano comes down to rush the play.  That was a rush 3 with a spy play.  Specifically not a contain rush like the rest of the game.  Knowing they will pass you go all out to force him out of the pocket to your spy who forces the quick decision on the run.  Challenge is this needs to be obvious passing downs.

[T master]

On 11/18/2024 at 5:33 PM, Buffalo716 said:

It's not to say that Andy Reid and his coaches are not really good at what they do 

 

But yesterday Sean McDermott and company out schemed and out coached Andy Reid, spag and company 

 

The game plan, the execution... Babich was never playing catch up... He knew what Andy Reid wanted to do and had players in the right spot 

 

It doesn't matter how aggressive spagnola is on defense when you have a quarterback who can read the defense pre-play , get the offensive line on the same page... And they do their job

 

Even on the last play of the game.. fourth and two with it all on the line 

 

Spags has seven on the line of scrimmage... Completely trying to overload Josh's brain... Josh sees it all and makes a protection call half sliding left... Leaving Torrance one-on-one with future Hall of famer Chris Jones 

 

Leaving Torrance and van demark 1 on 1 with the line half shifted left... Allows a massive hole in the B gap and an easy read for Josh to make.... He was never throwing the ball ...  He takes a deeper drop out of shotgun which makes the Left end go wider thinking he can speed rush The tackle... Not even realizing that's washing him out of the play

 

Sure did he have the option to throw, yes... But the protection and the half sliding line left was all about Josh being able to wash out the defensive line and identify a gap in the front... The way Josh maneuvers in the packet is second to none and with the game on the line him moving is the most deadly thing in the NFL

 

Even the last play shows the nuances that happen in every single NFL play... A quarterback who can't make the right protection call and trust his players up front cannot make that play.. and he has to be coached up good enough to know why he's making those calls... Not doing it just to do it but knowing the reason why

 

Human nature says you slide right and double Chris Jones but the intricacies of football and coaching show why they didn't 

 

 

 

Now if we can make the McD haters see that it will be a small miracle ...

[Don Otreply]

On 11/18/2024 at 6:45 PM, Buffalo716 said:

The game day thread is technically a cesspool full of exaggeration and craziness 

 

I don't think it represents what's actually happening 

 

 

The GDT is (as you said) a cesspool, full of the emotional baggage of perennially stressed out Bills fans, just imagine only having the GDT as one’s only source of team information, any sane person would rightly assume that the Bills are a total shambles of a NFL team, you know, like the jets…, 😆🤣😂

[Beck Water]

31 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Would be great cause then the man beater will work.  You often don't run spys with zone unless youre doing something upfront crazy (see below).  

Spy could get to him as others mentioned, but I think Spags didnt think as spy was necessary as they looked to be in Cover 2 with a lot of eyes on the QB.  

This was def something we were doing back as far back as 2022 on the taron johnson game winning interception.  If you recall on that play miller gets pressure and Mahomes rolls out to his right and Milano comes down to rush the play.  That was a rush 3 with a spy play.  Specifically not a contain rush like the rest of the game.  Knowing they will pass you go all out to force him out of the pocket to your spy who forces the quick decision on the run.  Challenge is this needs to be obvious passing downs.

 

Chris Simms made that point in his Unbuttoned episode.  The idea is, in Zone, you got 6 spies.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Whoever started this thread didn’t hear the totally true story about Andy Reid losing huge regular season games on purpose lol 

[YattaOkasan]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Chris Simms made that point in his Unbuttoned episode.  The idea is, in Zone, you got 6 spies.

So the happy coincidence of the 4th down play is you have so many shallow crossers (no deep routes that I recall) that all the front line defenders are occupied so they cant account for Josh. 

 

It was also mentioned a few years ago for Mahomes and Josh that getting out of the pocket and the threat of the run really strains the zones because now they have to move up and sorta get out of position.  Thats the fun push/pull as thats when the coverage really needs to shift to man but is hard for a defense to move as a unit.  

[Saxum]

2 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

The GDT is (as you said) a cesspool, full of the emotional baggage of perennially stressed out Bills fans, just imagine only having the GDT as one’s only source of team information, any sane person would rightly assume that the Bills are a total shambles of a NFL team, you know, like the jets…, 😆🤣😂

 

Well considering the offense names and tripe used by Bills fan some would surprised it is a Bills forum. 

[ColoradoBills]

17 hours ago, MJS said:

I think 20 years from now a lot of fans will be looking back with fondness on this team, including McDermott and Beane. McDermott gets just WAY too much criticism. He is a really good coach.

 

Most of the time fans are just throwing out vitriol his way without even understanding what they are watching or the nature of NFL football. Like the idiotic claims that he is conservative when he has shown time and time again that he is aggressive and follows the analytics as close as any coach in the NFL.

 

What is even worse IMO is a little understanding.  That is most of us.

I have to keep reminding myself of that.

 

One thing I have found fascinating is watching the Mannings and Belichick on ESPN2 MNF.  Listening to BB DURING a football game

is so much more interesting than listening to "pundits" after the game.  When BB talks about the defensive schemes it shows how much

offensive knowledge he has to have.  It makes me chuckle a bit about some saying McDermott doesn't know offenses because he's a

defensive coach.

 

The constant cat-and-mouse game that goes on is only surpassed by how fast the adjustments have to continuously be made. 

 

Then again, after all this "pre-snap" coaching is done, the players have to execute, adjust and outperform to make a play work

on offense or defense.

 

Some hate the phrase, but it's true, "it's hard to win in this league". 

Football is fun!

[3rdand12]

22 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The gameplan was definitely aggressive which I liked actually. Really on both sides of the ball. You don't beat the Chiefs sitting on your heels, you have to attack attack attack and live with the result knowing you either took it to them or went down swinging. But regarding your question it's hard to say because we had a ton of 3rd and longs so those reads are naturally going to be downfield.

 

My biggest problem with Brady in this game was the offense had trouble staying on schedule. Our excellent 3rd down efficiency made the operation look a lot better than it really was. I just did the math myself to make sure my eye test was accurate. We had 4 1st down plays that went for 10+ yards. On the other 24 1st downs (excluding our two TD runs) we averaged 1.6 yards per play. I know the 4 big plays count, I'm not discounting those. But that is a really difficult world to live in where you are basically playing in 2nd and 8.5 for the entire game. Ultimately it falls on the OC to do better.

Sure does , But keep in mind whom the Offense was Coaching against !

 Lets hope he got a fine education from Spags and Reid and levels up his skills.

 You are such a good poster here , I am surprised you were looking for the problem a lil bit 😇

[Buffalo716]

7 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

The GDT is (as you said) a cesspool, full of the emotional baggage of perennially stressed out Bills fans, just imagine only having the GDT as one’s only source of team information, any sane person would rightly assume that the Bills are a total shambles of a NFL team, you know, like the jets…, 😆🤣😂

You would assume that the majority of Bills fans escaped from Bellevue mental hospital 🤣

Edited Wednesday at 11:29 PM by Buffalo716

[Richard Noggin]

13 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My personal take on the 1st down runs was they were precisely to remain on schedule. I'm not saying it worked as the Bills would have hoped.... I'm sure they would have liked to be getting 3-4 yards rather than 1-2 on those runs but it felt like "I am not going to let the Chiefs force negative plays get me into 2nd and 3rd and 10 plus when you get the craziest blitzes in Spags playbook." 

 

I don't think it was about trying to set stuff up later or wear the defense out or any of those theories. I think it was simply a means of trying to avoid negative plays. I think there was a confidence that the Chiefs secondary was vulnerable especially with McDuffie not in top form and Watson injured and there would be plays to be made on 3rd down as long as we were not "behind the sticks". The thing that particularly makes me think that is the obvious solution to getting stoned running up the middle is tosses and sweeps and run plays to attack the edges. While Cook's first TD was an edge run the next drive they ran a toss where he should have been tackled in the backfield for a loss of about 5 yards and instead scampered forward, kept his balance and turned it into a short gain. After that - no more tosses - which suggests the risk of being 2nd and 15 or someone was not one Brady was willing to take.

 

They only had 3 negative plays on the day and all were for -1. Two on first down and one on second down so in that sense I think it worked, but they would have been hoping to be more effective that the 1-2 yard average on first down, no doubt. They need to look at how we crank some more yards out of 1st down (both run and pass actually) if we meet them again in January. But I think stopping the Chiefs defense from creating negative plays at the same time has to be part of that equation too.

 

So the Bills are being praised for their aggressive defensive gameplan and, at least after the fact, for their aggressive game management. Yet, you're identifying a super conservative offensive approach to 1st down play calling, and I appreciate the somewhat cynical (smart/careful) rationale you offer: avoiding negative plays on 1st down, against THIS OPPONENT, was foundational to their game management strategy. Also: drives will tend to take longer if you're using all three downs all the way down the field. Time of possession = time Mahomes is on sideline, so...

 

12 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

The GDT is (as you said) a cesspool, full of the emotional baggage of perennially stressed out Bills fans, just imagine only having the GDT as one’s only source of team information, any sane person would rightly assume that the Bills are a total shambles of a NFL team, you know, like the jets…, 😆🤣😂

 

Can we also admit that any gameday thread for any team will be inherently kinda awful because that's just internet behavior? What else would you expect from online people watching (either alone, or, even worse, watching with others but still contributing to an online forum thread) something that causes them stress? 

 

4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

You would assume that the majority of Bills fans escaped from Bellevue mental hospital 🤣

 

Or are just persons interacting online in real time while stressed out or excited. Sometimes I think people who overvalue online interaction with strangers develop a hint of schizophrenia with all the imagined reactions and replies to their every thought. 

 

[Buffalo716]

13 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

So the Bills are being praised for their aggressive defensive gameplan and, at least after the fact, for their aggressive game management. Yet, you're identifying a super conservative offensive approach to 1st down play calling, and I appreciate the somewhat cynical (smart/careful) rationale you offer: avoiding negative plays on 1st down, against THIS OPPONENT, was foundational to their game management strategy. Also: drives will tend to take longer if you're using all three downs all the way down the field. Time of possession = time Mahomes is on sideline, so...

 

 

Can we also admit that any gameday thread for any team will be inherently kinda awful because that's just internet behavior? What else would you expect from online people watching (either alone, or, even worse, watching with others but still contributing to an online forum thread) something that causes them stress? 

 

 

Or are just persons interacting online in real time while stressed out or excited. Sometimes I think people who overvalue online interaction with strangers develop a hint of schizophrenia with all the imagined reactions and replies to their every thought. 

 

I think it's just exactly what you said originally 

 

Being a passionate Buffalo Bills fan for decades is a wide range of emotions and we certainly have all been bitten before 

 

So there's a lot of skepticism and cynicism and masochism with Bills fans 

 

A lot of isms lol