Sans Allen, who are the untouchable players moving forward?

[ganesh]

4 hours ago, Kelly to Allen said:

I don't agree with this 

 

In 1988 when Kelly was 28, their was numerous young ascending talented football players that hadn't fully blossomed like this team. The past 3 drafts have been excellent. Rousseau may not be Bruce but could be a Charles Mann or Sean Jones Charles Haley level player. He's dominating ppl on the regular 

 

 

Can he play at the Chris Jones level?

[Shortchaz]

3 hours ago, ganesh said:

Can he play at the Chris Jones level?

1 sack in 6 playoff games for Greg. 
 

I wish Rousseau was better than he is, or at least as good as many posters think he is, but I haven’t seen it. He’s going to command a 25+ million/yr salary based on the market for his position. Another difficult decision for beane; a borderline good/very good player that, from a money-ball perspective, ends up being low return. E.g. Knox, Oliver, Jones, epenessa, miller, bass. 

[Captain Hindsight]

What’s wild is 3 years this would have been the list

 

Diggs

poyer

Hyde

white 

Dawkins

 

Life changes fast in the NFL

 

[Orlando Buffalo]

9 hours ago, Shortchaz said:

Why wouldn’t they 🤔

 

Going strictly by production, and ignoring all other considerations (chemistry etc.) josh is the only player that isn’t replaceable.  There are some nice players on the team but zero other hall of famers

I think we will offer them as much as anyone else. I think we value them highly based on what I have read. As I said everyone else is available for the right price. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Captain Hindsight said:

What’s wild is 3 years this would have been the list

 

Diggs

poyer

Hyde

white 

Dawkins

 

Life changes fast in the NFL

 

That’s why they are all worth first or second rounders.

[Kirby Jackson]

Taron Johnson is the only other guy that is irreplaceable. They have some quality young players. Bernard would probably be next for me. Rousseau is having a really good year but he seems like a really good player, not a dominant star. Spencer Brown is probably the other guy to consider in that tier. Shakir is a perfect fit with Allen as well.
 

In summation:

Irreplaceable - Allen & Taron

Have to be blown away - Bernard, Rousseau, Brown, Shakir

 

Edit: I forgot Benford. He would be in the 2nd group as of now. He has a chance to be in the 1st tier. A shutdown CB1, that’s young, is very valuable.

Edited Saturday at 05:20 PM by Kirby Jackson

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Maybe Big Groot, definitely not Cook. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

22 hours ago, Johnnycage46 said:

Shakir. I want him to stay a Bill for life assuming he remains consistent. I love his fire and the way he plays.

Agreed. 
 

Future wall of fame candidate. Speaking of which, who are the likely recent players that could end up on the wall of fame at the new stadium?

 

Kyle Williams feels like a lock. I would vote for Fred Jackson too.

[Nephilim17]

I don't think anyone's untouchable — for the right price.

But guys to build around include Rousseau, Taron, Shakir, Bernard, Benford, hopefully Kincaid and Coleman (if they progress and become who they hope they will be).

But there's not a single "untouchable" guy on this team outside of Allen.

[ColoradoBills]

11 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

But there's not a single "untouchable" guy on this team outside of Allen.

 

This thread would be simpler is it was a list on "untouchable" players in the entire league.

There are not that many of them.  IMO.

[dgrochester55]

Allen, Dawkins and that is it, but this is a good situation to be in. We have a lot of above average to good players and more depth than most teams.  Assuming that there is a rational plan to replace them, there isn't really anyone else on the roster outside of Allen that would provide enough of a loss to be the sole difference between whether or not they contend for the playoffs.

Edited Saturday at 05:39 PM by dgrochester55

[bobobonators]

22 hours ago, Billsfanatic8989 said:

If a team offered up a top 5 pick for Bernard, Dawkins, or Johnson, you think Beane says no? 

I could see him saying no to Dawkins. A franchise, pro bowl LT, who protects your franchise QB is worth a lot. One in the hand is better than 2 in the bush in this case. 
 

Bernard or Johnson I’m sure he’d think about it but who is going to offer a top 5 pick for these guys? No one. 

[BullBuchanan]

22 hours ago, T.E. said:

You'd be trading a known entity in your specific situation, at the most important position in sports, for a fairly comparable player who would now be in a new environment without arguably the greatest play-caller and TE of all time at his disposal.

 

I would pass on that deal, believe it or not.

You'd be trading for a known quantity that has 3 super bowl rings, 3 SB MVPs, 6 straight AFC championship appearances, 6 pro bowl nods, 2 all pros, 2 MVPs and an offensive player of the year in exchange for a guy that has 1 AFC championship game appearance and 2 pro bowls. Seriously that is the extent of Josh's accomplishments.

Look, Allen is an elite QB, but Patrick Mahomes is already AT WORST, the 2nd best QB to ever play the game and a lock for the HOF. Bills fans are incredibly silly.

Edited Saturday at 07:53 PM by BullBuchanan

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

4 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Look, Allen is an elite QB, but Patrick Mahomes is already AT WORST, the 2nd best QB to ever play the game and a lock for the HOF. Bills fans are incredibly silly.

 

There isn't a world in which Allen doesn't play another down and isn't a lock for the HOF either. That is how good Allen has been even without the hardware. Truly amazing. 

[BullBuchanan]

5 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

There isn't a world in which Allen doesn't play another down and isn't a lock for the HOF either. That is how good Allen has been even without the hardware. Truly amazing. 

That's definitely not true. He doesn't have the stats to back it up. If he retired today, he'd be in the same boat as Andrew Luck.

Edited Saturday at 08:05 PM by BullBuchanan

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

That's definitely not true. He doesn't have the stats to back it up. If he retired today, he'd be in the same boat as Andrew Luck.

 

Luck and Allen are not even comparable. Lucks career was much shorter than even Allen's. Luck was in the league for 7 full years and yet only started 86 games. Allen hasn't yet been in the league for 7 full years and yet if he didn't play another down he already has 103 games started. A full extra season since Luck missed an entire season due to injury.

 

Luck started 86 games. Allen has already started 103. Allen has 242 career TD's to lucks 185 career TD's. Luck was no slouch when it came to TD's but Allen still has him beat at 2.35 TD's per game to lucks 2.15 TD's per game. Allen has a greater average over a larger sample size which is harder to achieve. 

 

Also, playoff performance:

 

Luck: 4-4 record, 12 TD passes to 13 INT's, 73.4 career post season passer rating is notably worse than his 89.5 career regular season rating. Luck was not a post season performer. 

 

Allen: 5-5 record, 21 TD passes to 4 INT's, career 100.0 post season passer rating to Allen's 92.9 career regular season rating. Allen steps his game up in the postseason. 

 

Allen is the only player in NFL history with four straight seasons of 40+ total TD's. Allen and Drew Brees are the only two players in NFL history with 3 such consecutive seasons. He has the most total TD's for any player in their first seven seasons and counting. He has plenty of stats in his favor that make him a HOF lock already. 

[BullBuchanan]

19 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Luck and Allen are not even comparable. Lucks career was much shorter than even Allen's. Luck was in the league for 7 full years and yet only started 86 games. Allen hasn't yet been in the league for 7 full years and yet if he didn't play another down he already has 103 games started. A full extra season since Luck missed an entire season due to injury.

 

Luck started 86 games. Allen has already started 103. Allen has 242 career TD's to lucks 185 career TD's. Luck was no slouch when it came to TD's but Allen still has him beat at 2.35 TD's per game to lucks 2.15 TD's per game. Allen has a greater average over a larger sample size which is harder to achieve. 

 

Also, playoff performance:

 

Luck: 4-4 record, 12 TD passes to 13 INT's, 73.4 career post season passer rating is notably worse than his 89.5 career regular season rating. Luck was not a post season performer. 

 

Allen: 5-5 record, 21 TD passes to 4 INT's, career 100.0 post season passer rating to Allen's 92.9 career regular season rating. Allen steps his game up in the postseason. 

 

Allen is the only player in NFL history with four straight seasons of 40+ total TD's. Allen and Drew Brees are the only two players in NFL history with 3 such consecutive seasons. He has the most total TD's for any player in their first seven seasons and counting. He has plenty of stats in his favor that make him a HOF lock already. 

I didn't say they were equal, I said they were in the same boat. I didn't need you to look up stats showing Allen has been more profilic, it's well established to anyone who follows the sport. Allen meets none of the career records needed. He's well outside the top 50 in yards & TDs and has 0 personal accolades to speak of.

When considering Hall of Fame talents, that's what matters - not stringing together a handful of seasons of being a top 2-3 guy at your position. If Allen goes the rest of his career with 0 MVPs, 0 First team all-pros and 0 SB appearances, he'll have to finish in the top 10 yardage and TDs all-time to be considered. His turnovers will also weight heavily against him in absence of hardware or prolific stats.

Back to the topic at hand, Not trading Allen for Mahomes straight up is madness. I added the 1st round pick to silence the silly homers, and apparently that wasn't enough. Let's say Mahomes and 3 first round picks. A Ricky Williams trade.

Edited Saturday at 08:51 PM by BullBuchanan

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

25 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

I didn't say they were equal, I said they were in the same boat. I didn't need you to look up stats showing Allen has been more profilic, it's well established to anyone who follows the sport. Allen meets none of the career records needed. He's well outside the top 50 in yards & TDs and has 0 personal accolades to speak of.

When considering Hall of Fame talents, that's what matters - not stringing together a handful of seasons of being a top 2-3 guy at your position. If Allen goes the rest of his career with 0 MVPs, 0 First team all-pros and 0 SB appearances, he'll have to finish in the top 10 yardage and TDs all-time to be considered. His turnovers will also weight heavily against him in absence of hardware or prolific stats.

Back to the topic at hand, Not trading Allen for Mahomes straight up is madness. I added the 1st round pick to silence the silly homers, and apparently that wasn't enough. Let's say Mahomes and 3 first round picks. A Ricky Williams trade.

Four straight seasons of accomplishments that nobody else achieved is not a handful of seasons. 
 

The most TD’s all time in first seven years isn’t a handful of seasons.

 

You tried to equate Lucks shorter and less prolific career with Allen’s longer and more prolific career. They are not comparable. Allen beats Luck out in both categories which is why he is already a lock for the HOF.

 

 

Luck would probably be a HOF’er if he played just two more full seasons. I do think he could have gotten in with a shorter than normal career for a HOFer but ultimately his career was a bit too short. Allen doesn’t need the extra two seasons because he’s been that much better when he does play.

 

Allen has widely been considered a top 3 QB in the league for the last 4 years which does mean something. I’m not certain Luck was ever widely considered a top 3 QB in the league at any point in his career when his peers were Peyton, Rodgers, Brady, Big Ben and Mahomes through different parts of his career. 

[Brand J]

If he retired today, I do believe Allen is accepted into the HoF, but maybe not first ballot. 

[TheWei44]

The reason why one might not trade Allen for Mahomes is that you should evaluate them as if they had been in the same circumstance (i.e., apples to apples).  And for all of Mahomes' success relative to Allen, the argument could be made that M is a huge benefactor of coaching, scheme, etc.  As some have said, would Alllen have had similar crazy amounts of success if he had been the Chiefs QB instead of Mahomes?  And how would Mahomes have done here instead of Allen?  I think the two QBs are both extremely good.  It's a close call IMHO.