The Colts Game reminded me why we don't need/want a Diggs/#1 Receiver on our team

[Nephilim17]

I want a number one WR on this team, but one not an overpaid, self-absorbed, declining number one with great regular season stats who disappears in the playoffs.

[billsfan89]

I’m actually the opposite in terms of what conclusions I drew from the game. The offense at times was struggling because they didn’t have a go to WR. 

[DCofNC]

1 hour ago, Shortchaz said:

I’m sure that Justin Jefferson’s 4 year 140 million dollar contract, with 110 guaranteed is more than you’re trying to make it seem. I think he was paid 38 million this year, before the “value goes up”. 
 

Paying digs 31 million while he’s on another team is a good argument for not giving another wr a large contract. 
 

We’re getting into the weeds here. My argument is that signing a wr to a huge contract might make business sense but it’s low value from a purely wins/loss, team building, football sense. 

it’s all about cap space.  You’re telling me, you’d rather have this group of WRs, plus Jefferson for 8.5M cap hit this year and 15.3 next year?  Give me a break.  Basically, Jefferson is taking the same space as Samuel.  You’re back peddling because you don’t know the cap implications and you are dead wrong.  Having a great WR like him would open up so much.  Not only that, it would buy back your 3rd round pick from next year that’s burned on Cooper.  

[Virgil]

9 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

I’m actually the opposite in terms of what conclusions I drew from the game. The offense at times was struggling because they didn’t have a go to WR. 

 

If you read my post, you'll see I'm saying the same thing.  The Colts game showed why we need certain types of receivers, but not necessarily a #1 30 mil per guy. 

[DCofNC]

10 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

I’m actually the opposite in terms of what conclusions I drew from the game. The offense at times was struggling because they didn’t have a go to WR. 

Exactly, nothing was open, all day.  The only big play was a busted play where JA found a chance to fling it to an empty zone on the run.   The O sucked all day aside from a handful of great individual efforts.  The scheme was not working.   It was also not helpful that JA has been consistently coming up short on his throws the last 2 weeks.  Not sure what that’s about, but something is slightly off, be it fundamentals or injury.

[BigDingus]

What a wild takeaway after that game...

 

If you want to waste Allen's career, sure, give him nothing but joyrneymen & fringe practice squad fodder to throw to.

 

People complain that the Bills run a lot on first down, but Allen was 4 of 10 for 25 yards with 2 INTs while passing on first down. I wonder if that has anything to do with not having good weapons?

 

Cook was running the ball well, but they took until the 2nd half to really commit to running more. And coincidentally, the offense looked better afterwards!

 

And remember Allen going all those weeks without an INT? Now he's gone 3 straight with one, while matching his yearly total in 1 game yesterday.

 

So if we want to succeed this way, the solution seems to be taking the ball out of Allen's hands & letting Cook/Davis be the primary offensive focus. If that's what you like, then no WR1 needed. 

 

But if you want a good passing attack & want Allen to be the primary driver of the offense, you need better weapons.

[starrymessenger]

There is a lot of back and forth on the need or not for a "true # 1" receiver. Probably just me but I would benefit from understanding what exactly people mean by that.

Are we just talking numbers so that it means the guy lining up on the weak side of the LOS in 1 receiver sets? Actually in multiple receiver sets you often have guys lined up at either end of the LOS and, numerically and for playcalling purposes, they are both # 1s.

Or do we mean the receiver who most earns his quarterback's trust, is the go to guy and probably the one with the most targets, catches and yards (eg Shakir)? If so, presumably the # 1 could line up as an X, Y or Z receiver.

But I think people are referencing a specific skill set. I assume they mean an X type boundary receiver who is a burner (or at least considered fast enough to gain separation) and who can credibly threaten to take the top off of a defence (bearing in mind that in today's game a deep threat will also be positioned as a slot or flanker (Jefferson, Davante Adams) and work all parts of the field).
So based on that criteria is Worthy a true # 1? And for those wanting a true # 1, does it also mean they would have preferred Worthy, Leggett or Mitchell to Coleman in the last draft (from amongst those players we could actually draft).

Besides being fast some would say that the prototypical # 1 need be big and/or strong. So forget Worthy. The definition can be further limited by requiring that the guy also qualify as the O's principal passing weapon and that he be among the team leaders in targets, catches and yardage, and therefore inferentially that he also have a developed route tree (Jamar Chase, Tyreek).To find someone like that (assuming one is available) your best bet is to burn an early first round pick. And then you often have to wait for the player to develop. Failing that you need to crack a very large cheque to a FA.

My view for now is that the Bills O can certainly benefit schematically from having a healthy Cooper. But I dont think you need a great player of that type. A good one should be enuf if you can't find or afford an elite player. You can probably do that. I was interested in Mooney for that role in FA last year, though I doubt anyone would call him a # 1 receiver. 

[Shortchaz]

53 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

it’s all about cap space.  You’re telling me, you’d rather have this group of WRs, plus Jefferson for 8.5M cap hit this year and 15.3 next year?  Give me a break.  Basically, Jefferson is taking the same space as Samuel.  You’re back peddling because you don’t know the cap implications and you are dead wrong.  Having a great WR like him would open up so much.  Not only that, it would buy back your 3rd round pick from next year that’s burned on Cooper.  

I’m “back peddling” because you’re trying to drag the argument into fantasy land. Doing the kind of myopic accounting you’re doing is what got us in the cap trouble we’re in. There’s no debate the team would be better with better players, that’s just not the only consideration. 

[Warriorspikes51]

1 hour ago, Nephilim17 said:

I want a number one WR on this team, but one not an overpaid, self-absorbed, declining number one with great regular season stats who disappears in the playoffs.

we acquired one.  Hopefully his wrist heals up soon 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

 

If you read my post, you'll see I'm saying the same thing.  The Colts game showed why we need certain types of receivers, but not necessarily a #1 30 mil per guy. 

 

 

They only scored 23 points on offense and Allen had his 3rd worst game of the season(after those atrocious Ravens/Texans games that "showed" that they needed a WR1 to compete in stretches against good teams).      Not going to be playing losing teams like Indy every week.

[mjt328]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

I think we are on the same page, but I may not be wording my thoughts correctly.  In the games you mentioned, we did not have that burner to keep two safeties against us and make the opposing team respect longer passes.  With Cooper, who I agree is a number one, we saw the benefit of that respect immediately. 

 

I think we need a health Coleman (outside for contested catches), Shakir in the slot, and a respectable burner on the outside.  Yes, that's Cooper right now, but I don't think his replacement needs to be as good as Cooper, just someone who you can't let run free down the sidelines. 

 

If we have that, then I think this offense is in great shape and Josh plays a better brand of ball

 

Definitely.  

The Bills don't need someone like Davante Adams, Justin Jefferson, etc.  They just need someone teams will respect enough to pull that coverage away from the middle, and give our other guys room to operate.

 

The Titans/Seahawks games were the only times we've had the entire WR group healthy, and it was very tough for teams to stop.

 

[Virgil]

30 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They only scored 23 points on offense and Allen had his 3rd worst game of the season(after those atrocious Ravens/Texans games that "showed" that they needed a WR1 to compete in stretches against good teams).      Not going to be playing losing teams like Indy every week.

Again, my point was that the Colts game called out that Josh needs multiple guys available to him, vs only two guys where he feels he has to force feed them.  
 

Josh needs a healthy Coleman, Shakir, Hollins, and Cooper/burner.  
 

I don’t think he needs a #1 that demands the ball.   If he has the prior, he’s more relaxed, spreads the ball to who is open.  

4 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

Definitely.  

The Bills don't need someone like Davante Adams, Justin Jefferson, etc.  They just need someone teams will respect enough to pull that coverage away from the middle, and give our other guys room to operate.

 

The Titans/Seahawks games were the only times we've had the entire WR group healthy, and it was very tough for teams to stop.

 

This 

[BADOLBILZ]

35 minutes ago, Virgil said:

Again, my point was that the Colts game called out that Josh needs multiple guys available to him, vs only two guys where he feels he has to force feed them.  
 

Josh needs a healthy Coleman, Shakir, Hollins, and Cooper/burner.  
 

I don’t think he needs a #1 that demands the ball.   If he has the prior, he’s more relaxed, spreads the ball to who is open.  

 

 

So they don't need a WR1 but a guy who put up 1200 yards receiving last year and a guy who went with the first pick of the second round will do?   If healthy, Coleman and Cooper are going to get the ball a disproportionate amount of the time.   The Bills themselves aren't paying $30M per year for any receiver but Cooper is on a $20M/yr deal that was signed in 2020 when that was about the equivalent of what a new $30M deal would be today.   They basically paid the Browns in draft compensation to eat that last $10M or so of that deal.   

[Virgil]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So they don't need a WR1 but a guy who put up 1200 yards receiving last year and a guy who went with the first pick of the second round will do?   If healthy, Coleman and Cooper are going to get the ball a disproportionate amount of the time.   The Bills themselves aren't paying $30M per year for any receiver but Cooper is on a $20M/yr deal that was signed in 2020 when that was about the equivalent of what a new $30M deal would be today.   They basically paid the Browns in draft compensation to eat that last $10M or so of that deal.   

Cooper is a number one, I don’t dispute that.   Cooper does a lot more than just be a deep threat.  
 

I’m saying he don’t need all of it.   Is it nice to have, yes.  
 

But I think Josh and the offense really only needs the deep threat aspect of Cooper, to elevate the game of everyone else and complete our WR set.  Maybe a 700-900 yard receiver.  Christian Watson is a good example of what I mean.  
 

Guys you can get away paying under 15 mil a year for, compliment each other; earns trust with Josh, and everyone eats 

[Meatloaf63]

23 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Well not sure how you come to that conclusion since the first INT was going to Shakir. 

This team needs a true receiving threat. After they moved on from Diggs I thought that would be Kincaid. I thought they would take the approach KC has done with Kelce. 

But Kincaid has not been the superstar we

had hoped for so far. He's solid but not even close to an elite TE. 

Coleman looks like he may be as good or better than Davis was. But he is not a #1. 

If Kincaid doesn't get better and Cooper leaves in free agency they will need to find another true #1.

What did Kelce do in his first two seasons? Honest question…

[Ethan in Cleveland]

10 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

What did Kelce do in his first two seasons? Honest question…

67 and 72 catches for about 875 yards each season...with Alex Smith as QB.  Almost 3 YPC better than Kincaid without a HOF QB. He did have Andy Reid though. 

[DCofNC]

2 hours ago, Shortchaz said:

I’m “back peddling” because you’re trying to drag the argument into fantasy land. Doing the kind of myopic accounting you’re doing is what got us in the cap trouble we’re in. There’s no debate the team would be better with better players, that’s just not the only consideration. 

So the team would be better with a better WR and the cap hit would be no issue, soooo.  Maybe it’s the mismanagement of the cap on mediocre players that caused the problem they have now.

Edited November 12 by DCofNC

[EasternOHBillsFan]

35 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

So the team would be better with a better WR and the cap hit would be no issue, soooo.  Maybe it’s the mismanagement of the cap on mediocre players that caused the problem they have now.

 

What specific higher paid mediocre players are we talking about? Name names  

[DCofNC]

2 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

What specific higher paid mediocre players are we talking about? Name names  

Von Miller

Samuel

Jones

Knox

Bass

 

arguments to be made for:

Oliver - unless you need a magician, who’s great at disappearing.

Milano (based on availability)

 

Brown - teaming with Schnoman for the most penalized tackles in the NFL 

 

Diggs - paying him to not be here, doubly bad bc he beat you, then bowed out on the season before helping them beat other teams we needed beat.

 

 

Bonus points to 1st round picks who aren’t living up to their draft slots in Elam, Kincaid (sorry he’s not even on pace to match his rookie year and 3 catches a game is not worth a 1st), and again our Magic man, Eddy O.

 

Edited November 12 by DCofNC

[billsfan89]

8 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Exactly, nothing was open, all day.  The only big play was a busted play where JA found a chance to fling it to an empty zone on the run.   The O sucked all day aside from a handful of great individual efforts.  The scheme was not working.   It was also not helpful that JA has been consistently coming up short on his throws the last 2 weeks.  Not sure what that’s about, but something is slightly off, be it fundamentals or injury.

 

The offense felt very "difficult" nothing much was coming easy. It kind of just felt like Josh was making a bunch of "Superman" plays while each skill guy had one or two solid complementary good plays and they were able to piece together just enough offense to make the game comfortable. I don't think this offensive effort wins against better than average teams. 

 

This game was won largely by a very strong defensive and special teams effort while also cobbling together a decent but not great offensive effort. The Bills at WR are going to need Cooper and Coleman out there. If the Bills have any hope to beat KC they are gonna need Cooper as Keon's already out.