An attempt to look objectively at the Dawkins and Cybo holding calls according to the rules -

[Simon]

6 minutes ago, FLFan said:

There are at least ten uncalled holding calls per game worse than these.  

 

And I would even suggest that is an incredibly self-restrained and conservative estimate.

[Beach]

these things used to be the reason we lost the game, times are better now that we can overcome those

[Beck Water]

5 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

Inside or outside hand position does not matter:

 

“Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. “

 

The question is did he “grab” and did he materially alter the defenders path? 

 

 

 

 

I mean, Bill, maybe he did, but that kind of thing happens on almost every play, you could bet on it.  And usually, it's not called unless it's really egregious.

5 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Both calls were ridiculous.  Dawkins got called because the ref probably thought the only way he could have had Robinson fall like that is if he held him.

 

That happens to Dawkins.  He gets penalized for being a Beast.

[peterpan]

I’d love to see a comparison to the non-call for holding on Oliver on the 4th down scramble by Tua in the 4th.  Looked like the type of call that they make against us on ever big run.

 

i check YouTube but it continently didn’t make the highlight reel 

 

[peterpan]

6 minutes ago, peterpan said:

I’d love to see a comparison to the non-call for holding on Oliver on the 4th down scramble by Tua in the 4th.  Looked like the type of call that they make against us on ever big run.

 

i check YouTube but it continently didn’t make the highlight reel 

 

Haha I found it.  And it’s so much worse than I remember.  It’s a terrible, obvious hold for the entire play. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/tua-s-fourth-down-scramble-and-dive-is-enough-for-first-down-yardage

[Orlando Buffalo]

I don't believe it is the same crew but I need someone to explain how you defend this Chief non call and the call on Torrance without stating complete incompetence on one or the other.

 

[0017]

8 minutes ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

I don't believe it is the same crew but I need someone to explain how you defend this Chief non call and the call on Torrance without stating complete incompetence on one or the other.

 

[BearNorth]

43 minutes ago, peterpan said:

Haha I found it.  And it’s so much worse than I remember.  It’s a terrible, obvious hold for the entire play. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/tua-s-fourth-down-scramble-and-dive-is-enough-for-first-down-yardage

Would it open Pandora's box if a replay is requested and there is a pretty obvious penalty that affected the play then the sky judge lets the ref know?

[julian]

All major fouls and any penalties that remove points off the board should be reviewable in some form or fashion.

[Comebackkid]

looked like if anyone was holding it was brown...he had jersey in his hands clenched

[BigAl2526]

The old axiom is that refs could call and offensive hold on every play, but these were both very weak calls, and for it to happen on consecutive plays is inexcusable.  I assume the Bills will point this out to the league and lodge a complaint.  

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, peterpan said:

Haha I found it.  And it’s so much worse than I remember.  It’s a terrible, obvious hold for the entire play. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/tua-s-fourth-down-scramble-and-dive-is-enough-for-first-down-yardage

It makes me sick to see that.  I have no doubt that the NFL told the refs not to call a holding penalty on Miami when it involved protecting Tua.  Call me a conspiracy nut but there is no way the league wants to see Tua withering on the turf. I will be real curious going forward to see how many flags for holding are called going forward on Tua pass plays.

 

[Drew21PA]

Issue has always been

 

consistency

 

others mentioned what I saw in the dolphins run game was WAYYYYY worse holding than those two examples 

[4merper4mer]

19 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

So, I really wanted to get out of homer mode to try to understand why the Bills were called on successive plays for offensive holding. I am not trying to argue that the refs made the right or wrong call. Instead, I seek to understand why they made the calls they did.

 

First, some resources for those that want to look at them:

 

Summary and video tutorial from the NFL about the rule

 

The official and full rule

 

Second, video clips of the plays:

 

Dawkins:

 

Sorry guys I can’t find video that I can clip for this post. The play occurs at the 39 second mark before the half. If you have DVR - you will see Dawkins chop hands and the Miami defender falls to the ground. Possibly - in the course of the play Dawkins sits on the defender (the announcers call this out).

 

 Cybo:

 

  

 

 

The possible basis for the calls based on the rules (again not arguing the case for the refs):

 

Dawkins:

 

The rule “If a blocker falls on or pushes down a defender whose momentum is carrying him to the ground, Offensive Holding will not be called unless the blocker prevents the defender from rising from the ground.” 

 

It was a beautiful block until Dawkins sits or motions like he is sitting on the defender. The ref probably calls it for this reason. Frankly, Dawkins had no need to do it and it was stupid.

 

Cybo:

 

The rule: “Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:

grabbing or tackling an opponent;

hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or

pulling him to the ground.

Penalty: For holding by the offense: Loss of 10 yards.”

 

 

In the video from Parrino at about the 5 second mark the Miami player’s jersey may move as if being tugged. It is exceptionally brief and not apparent from the camera angle is it is caused by Cybo grabbing. 

 

The refs probably judged this as “restricting” the defender’s path.

 

Again, this is simply trying to look at the rules and plays objectively. Thoughts?

 

Now do the Chiefs right tackle.  Just pick a random passing play to analyze.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

In the context of the game with how much they were letting go for the dolphins, these felt like two of the worst calls of all time 

 

12 hours ago, peterpan said:

Haha I found it.  And it’s so much worse than I remember.  It’s a terrible, obvious hold for the entire play. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/tua-s-fourth-down-scramble-and-dive-is-enough-for-first-down-yardage

Ed definitely makes that play if he’s not held too and almost made it anyway.  That hold was massively consequential 

Edited November 5 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[BuffaloBill]

12 hours ago, peterpan said:

Haha I found it.  And it’s so much worse than I remember.  It’s a terrible, obvious hold for the entire play. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/tua-s-fourth-down-scramble-and-dive-is-enough-for-first-down-yardage

You’re right - if Cybo was holding what was done to Oliver on that play was even more egregious and obvious.

[Andy1]

The ref on the left side of screen had a perfect view of Dawkins yet still threw the flag. 

[JP51]

20 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

So, I really wanted to get out of homer mode to try to understand why the Bills were called on successive plays for offensive holding. I am not trying to argue that the refs made the right or wrong call. Instead, I seek to understand why they made the calls they did.

 

First, some resources for those that want to look at them:

 

Summary and video tutorial from the NFL about the rule

 

The official and full rule

 

Second, video clips of the plays:

 

Dawkins:

 

Sorry guys I can’t find video that I can clip for this post. The play occurs at the 39 second mark before the half. If you have DVR - you will see Dawkins chop hands and the Miami defender falls to the ground. Possibly - in the course of the play Dawkins sits on the defender (the announcers call this out).

 

 Cybo:

 

  

 

 

The possible basis for the calls based on the rules (again not arguing the case for the refs):

 

Dawkins:

 

The rule “If a blocker falls on or pushes down a defender whose momentum is carrying him to the ground, Offensive Holding will not be called unless the blocker prevents the defender from rising from the ground.” 

 

It was a beautiful block until Dawkins sits or motions like he is sitting on the defender. The ref probably calls it for this reason. Frankly, Dawkins had no need to do it and it was stupid.

 

Cybo:

 

The rule: “Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:

grabbing or tackling an opponent;

hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or

pulling him to the ground.

Penalty: For holding by the offense: Loss of 10 yards.”

 

 

In the video from Parrino at about the 5 second mark the Miami player’s jersey may move as if being tugged. It is exceptionally brief and not apparent from the camera angle is it is caused by Cybo grabbing. 

 

The refs probably judged this as “restricting” the defender’s path.

 

Again, this is simply trying to look at the rules and plays objectively. Thoughts?

 

First thank you for such thoughtful insight, this is a great post with video. Watched them several times.  My opinion, maybe they were or maybe they werent techinical holding calls. But from observation, I see literally every play in an NFL game much worse that isnt called. That they chose to call these on back to back plays was an embarassment to me. I am not saying the NFL called down and said we hate the Bills throw the flag. But I am saying I saw 10x worse that was never called on Miami all game... To wipe out one of the most exciting plays of the game for that... just goes to my feeling that the NFL Refs currently believe the game is all about them.... they are ruining the flow, the excitement and ultimately in my opinion, are way to involved in the deciding of games....   

Edited November 5 by JP51

[The Jokeman]

13 hours ago, julian said:

All major fouls and any penalties that remove points off the board should be reviewable in some form or fashion.

They already review all scoring plays, it wouldn't take much longer to review all penalties called on them. 

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

They already review all scoring plays, it wouldn't take much longer to review all penalties called on them. 

Not in the Chiefs games....the Refs don't call penalties on them. 😂