An attempt to look objectively at the Dawkins and Cybo holding calls according to the rules -

[Augie]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

Inside or outside hand position does not matter:

 

“Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. “

 

The question is did he “grab” and did he materially alter the defenders path? 

 

 

 

 

If that is the rule, and they are going to call it consistently, wake me up in a couple years and let me know how it’s going. The penalty on Torrence is exactly how they are taught to block, and I can’t even guess on the Brown flag, it’s just mystifying to me. The Dawkins flag was comical. 

 

Unless you are going to call a handful of jersey on his chest on every play it happens, you have to let it go. Picking and choosing is where people lose faith (and interest). Be consistent and nobody will complain. 

 

I actually prefer the caption on this replay:

 

This one gets it too. 

 

 

Edited November 4 by Augie

[Big Turk]

Both calls were ridiculous.  Dawkins got called because the ref probably thought the only way he could have had Robinson fall like that is if he held him.

[BuffaloBill]

8 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

If that is the rule, and they are going to call it consistently, wake me up in a couple years and let me know how it’s going. The penalty on Torrence is exactly how they are taught to block, and I can’t even guess on the Brown flag is just mystifying to me. The Dawkins flag was comical. 

 

Unless you are going to call a handful of jersey on his chest on every play it happens, you have to let it go. Picking and choosing is where people lose faith (and interest). Be consistent and nobody will complain. 

 

I actually prefer the caption on this replay:

 

This one gets it too. 

 

 

 

I’m glad the Bills won because if these calls and Coleman’s rookie mistake = loss that would have been a bitter spoonful of medicine to swallow.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

Inside or outside hand position does not matter:

 

“Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. “

 

The question is did he “grab” and did he materially alter the defenders path? 

 

 

 

I never said he wasn’t holding. In terms of what gets called that is what refs look for, hands outside. What Torrence did rarely gets called.

Edited November 4 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Low Positive]

The problem with NFL reffing is that there is holding on every play so the Refs get to decide how much they want to affect the outcome. They chose to take a TD off of the board. It was as clear as day. 

[pi2000]

Maybe they called the wrong number?  Someone else could've been guilty.

 

To play devils advocate, these "phantom" calls happen several times a game on both sides... just the timing of these calls sucked and they happened to score on one of them, after the flag was thrown.   It happens... good teams overcome.

 

That said, loved the reaction from the players and coaches.   They took it in stride and moved on, didn't let it affect their play and didn't act out towards the refs.   That's a sign of a well coached team.

[folz]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

Both calls were ridiculous.  Dawkins got called because the ref probably thought the only way he could have had Robinson fall like that is if he held him.

 

I've seen this far too often from refs. They see some body movement or after-effect of an action and then assume the action must have been a penalty to create that outcome, so they throw the flag...even though they didn't actually see any infraction. If you don't see it, don't call it!

 

 

And I know a lot of people don't like to think this way, but sometimes it sure seems like the refs/NFL do a little bit of steering to keep a team in it, keep things close (more exciting games, etc.).

 

I often say, you have to look at when penalties occur (what down, what point in the game, etc.), not just add up how many each team has at the end and say, see 9 to 10 (or whatever) the refs called it evenly.

 

1. First Quarter. . Miami punted on their first drive. Codrington has an electric punt return. Bills score a Field Goal. Crowd is into the game. Now Miami is on their second drive 10 minutes into the game and have a 3rd and 11. They make a big play (17 yards), but Mostert lowers his head into Rapp. Clear penalty on Mostert. Should have been a 15-yard roughness call on Miami. And they're punting from their own 14-yard line...giving the Bills great field position and a chance to go up 10-0 at the end of the First Quarter with Miami having done nothing offensively and the crowd going crazy. Instead, they get the 17-yard pass play and 15 yard penalty (32 yards), they then eke out 18 more yards on 5 plays and kick a field goal to make it a 3-3 tie-game at the end of the first.

 

2. Second Quarter...35 seconds left in the half. Miami is up 10-3. Josh Allen has a monster, momentum-changing, run that ties the game and electrifies and energizes the crowd. But there is a phantom holding call on Torrence (one play after a phantom call on Dawkins). Bills should have gone into the half tied at 10 and with all of the momentum. Instead the crowd and team got quieted (flag...awwww) and they have to settle for a field goal and go into the half down by 4 (10-6).

 

 

If not for just those two bad calls, it probably would have been 17-7 Bills lead at the half (instead of 10-6 Dolphins), and going into the locker room with a ton of momentum and a crowd still in a frenzy from Josh's run. Considering the Bills scored TDs on their two possessions in the 3rd quarter, while Miami only mustered 3 points in the 3rd, we are talking about a 31-10 Bills lead at the end of the third quarter (instead of 20-16 Bills). And if the 4th quarter played out the same (which it probably wouldn't have, but...), we're then looking at a final score of 41-24 Bills. And, of course, that is not even considering all of the holding calls that could have been called on the Phins but weren't. Just two key penalties at the right time can change a blow-out into a nail-biting, shoot-out.

[BillsShredder83]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

So, I really wanted to get out of homer mode to try to understand why the Bills were called on successive plays for offensive holding. I am not trying to argue that the refs made the right or wrong call. Instead, I seek to understand why they made the calls they did.

 

First, some resources for those that want to look at them:

 

Summary and video tutorial from the NFL about the rule

 

The official and full rule

 

Second, video clips of the plays:

 

Dawkins:

 

Sorry guys I can’t find video that I can clip for this post. The play occurs at the 39 second mark before the half. If you have DVR - you will see Dawkins chop hands and the Miami defender falls to the ground. Possibly - in the course of the play Dawkins sits on the defender (the announcers call this out).

 

 Cybo:

 

  

 

 

The possible basis for the calls based on the rules (again not arguing the case for the refs):

 

Dawkins:

 

The rule “If a blocker falls on or pushes down a defender whose momentum is carrying him to the ground, Offensive Holding will not be called unless the blocker prevents the defender from rising from the ground.” 

 

It was a beautiful block until Dawkins sits or motions like he is sitting on the defender. The ref probably calls it for this reason. Frankly, Dawkins had no need to do it and it was stupid.

 

Cybo:

 

The rule: “Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:

grabbing or tackling an opponent;

hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or

pulling him to the ground.

Penalty: For holding by the offense: Loss of 10 yards.”

 

 

In the video from Parrino at about the 5 second mark the Miami player’s jersey may move as if being tugged. It is exceptionally brief and not apparent from the camera angle is it is caused by Cybo grabbing. 

 

The refs probably judged this as “restricting” the defender’s path.

 

Again, this is simply trying to look at the rules and plays objectively. Thoughts?

 

I sincerely appreciate what youre trying to do here, but this is all part of an incompetent league.

 

Dawkins got a penalty earlier this year for finishing a block into the ground (which is taught as great lineman play, and Ive never seen flagged).  Dawkins being a smart player remembered that, and tried a more gentle approach to keep dude out of pursuit..... absolutely stupid, but im more angry about my first point, but thats what I saw

 

Second again was inconsequential to the plays result, you can hold inside the shoulder pads..... i get he shouldve let go a fraction of a second earlier, but he played this by the spirit of the rules, as it was brief in slow mo

 

The refs can and do choose when to call penalties.  I mean this with all honesty, the league has been unwatchable all year due to refs.  This is not hyperbole, every game is devoid of momenntum, half of all good plays are called back it feels like.

 

Saturdays used to be my keep busy with wife day (minus Pitt games), Sunday was sacred for NFL.  After about week 3 i flipped it with her.  Saturday is college all day, Sunday is Bills I have no interest in turning anything on before or after....... if its on TV, we're bored and half doing other stuff.  

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

Inside or outside hand position does not matter:

 

“Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. “

 

The question is did he “grab” and did he materially alter the defenders path? 

 

 

 

And the answer is no. The guy made no effort to change direction or move away from Torrence, so Torrence didn't  restrict or alter the defenders path.  I'm not sure the guy even recognized that Allen was heading upfield until Allen was out of reach. 

 

It was a bad call, especially right after the other bad call. 

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

It's honestly impossible to find any reasonable explanation for either flag.

For a brief moment it looks like Torrence might be holding the defenders arm but that is not the case. The defender just has his arm inside Torrence's arm and Torrence makes no attempt to hold it or to prevent the defender from disengaging.  It's just a terrible terrible call taking away one of the great plays of the entire season to date. 

Can't believe the NFL as an entertainment product doesn't intervene. They need the replay assist for all plays to intervene on plays like this where the ref clearly saw something that did not happen. 

Good  points. I was able to watch the all 22 video of the game and I was even more surprised that either or both of those calls were made.  The right side of the Miami o-line was clearly holding on multiple plays in a manner that was more egregious than the calls on Dawkins and Torrence.  Penalties were not called on any of those plays. The holding was obvious on the outside runs to their right and the screens thrown to that side.  To let that level of holding go on throughout the game and then to make the calls on the Bills at a critical juncture of the game, is what makes fans angry.

 

Other obvious non calls were Miami blocking downfield on screens prior to the pass (one call was finally made later in the game).  Lastly, the Miami right guard left before the snap on more than one play and was not called. Overall, I thought the non calls were more beneficial to Miami than they were to the Bills.  I would be really upset, if the Bills had lost.  For me now, it's on to Indy and shrimp cocktail at Elmo's. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Just now, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

Good  points. I was able to watch the all 22 video of the game and I was even more surprised that either or both of those calls were made.  The right side of the Miami o-line was clearly holding on multiple plays in a manner that was more egregious than the calls on Dawkins and Torrence.  Penalties were not called on any of those plays. The holding was obvious on the outside runs to their right and the screens thrown to that side.  To let that level of holding go on throughout the game and then to make the calls on the Bills at a critical juncture of the game, is what makes fans angry.

 

Other obvious non calls were Miami blocking downfield on screens prior to the pass (one call was finally made later in the game).  Lastly, the Miami right guard left before the snap on more than one play and was not called. Overall, I thought the non calls were more beneficial to Miami than they were to the Bills.  I would be really upset, if the Bills had lost.  For me now, it's on to Indy and shrimp cocktail at Elmo's. 

What is shrimp cocktail at Elmo's?? 

[Big Blitz]

Calls made by a league that currently has 9 two win teams.  If the Jets lost it would have been 10.  
 

That's terrible for ratings now and come December.  
 

I don’t know if it’s as much about Vegas - this games spread was 5 - as it is the league not needing 1/3 of the league out of it before Thanksgiving.  
 

It makes you wonder. 

[billsfan89]

The Dawkins one was a complete “phantom” call. The Cybo one was a “soft” call in that while Cybo may have held it was a hold that could have been called on any play. 

[Simon]

11 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

What is shrimp cocktail at Elmo's?? 

 

https://www.stelmos.com/

 

Famous steakhouse in Indy

[fasteddie]

I've been watching football for over 50 years, and I've noticed in the last 15-20 years if a defensive lineman falls down, the refs assume that he is being held. It totally goes against the rule book, but for some reason, they almost always go against it in this case. In other words,  refs are idiots!

[pigpen65]

No holding. There was a lower line than people expected which steered bettors towards the favorite. Vegas made money having the underdog cover. The underdog covered. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

5 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

https://www.stelmos.com/

 

Famous steakhouse in Indy

Sweet! Last time I went to game in Indianapolis I had no money.

[gonzo1105]

4 hours ago, billieve420 said:

Refs should be graded in real time by someone in the booth anytime a flag is thrown. If they see something clear and obvious is wrong should buzz the head judge and instruct him on what to do.

 

So I used to know an NFL back judge, this was probably 15 years ago and things could have changed by now but they essentially get a packet of plays that falls into their area of scope of penalties or missed penalties and what they should have done in the given situation and then they are graded. I remember what time he showed me an example of holding but it wasn't called because it was away from the play by a WR. So essentially it was a run play on the opposite side of the field and falls under the rule of holding but since it was so far from the play they told them not to flag it. I found that interesting.

[Warcodered]

5 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

So, I really wanted to get out of homer mode to try to understand why the Bills were called on successive plays for offensive holding. I am not trying to argue that the refs made the right or wrong call. Instead, I seek to understand why they made the calls they did.

 

First, some resources for those that want to look at them:

 

Summary and video tutorial from the NFL about the rule

 

The official and full rule

 

Second, video clips of the plays:

 

Dawkins:

 

Sorry guys I can’t find video that I can clip for this post. The play occurs at the 39 second mark before the half. If you have DVR - you will see Dawkins chop hands and the Miami defender falls to the ground. Possibly - in the course of the play Dawkins sits on the defender (the announcers call this out).

 

 Cybo:

 

  

 

 

The possible basis for the calls based on the rules (again not arguing the case for the refs):

 

Dawkins:

 

The rule “If a blocker falls on or pushes down a defender whose momentum is carrying him to the ground, Offensive Holding will not be called unless the blocker prevents the defender from rising from the ground.” 

 

It was a beautiful block until Dawkins sits or motions like he is sitting on the defender. The ref probably calls it for this reason. Frankly, Dawkins had no need to do it and it was stupid.

 

Cybo:

 

The rule: “Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:

grabbing or tackling an opponent;

hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or

pulling him to the ground.

Penalty: For holding by the offense: Loss of 10 yards.”

 

 

In the video from Parrino at about the 5 second mark the Miami player’s jersey may move as if being tugged. It is exceptionally brief and not apparent from the camera angle is it is caused by Cybo grabbing. 

 

The refs probably judged this as “restricting” the defender’s path.

 

Again, this is simply trying to look at the rules and plays objectively. Thoughts?

 

Yeah the problem is there was no consistency, they didn't call holding like that against Miami, hell they didn't really call it like that at all the rest of the night. But they had an extreme effect on the game by moving our offense back 20 yards when it was in the redzone at a moment that could shift the whole game.

 

A Referee is supposed to ***** do that.

[FLFan]

5 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

So, I really wanted to get out of homer mode to try to understand why the Bills were called on successive plays for offensive holding. I am not trying to argue that the refs made the right or wrong call. Instead, I seek to understand why they made the calls they did.

 

First, some resources for those that want to look at them:

 

Summary and video tutorial from the NFL about the rule

 

The official and full rule

 

Second, video clips of the plays:

 

Dawkins:

 

Sorry guys I can’t find video that I can clip for this post. The play occurs at the 39 second mark before the half. If you have DVR - you will see Dawkins chop hands and the Miami defender falls to the ground. Possibly - in the course of the play Dawkins sits on the defender (the announcers call this out).

 

 Cybo:

 

  

 

 

The possible basis for the calls based on the rules (again not arguing the case for the refs):

 

Dawkins:

 

The rule “If a blocker falls on or pushes down a defender whose momentum is carrying him to the ground, Offensive Holding will not be called unless the blocker prevents the defender from rising from the ground.” 

 

It was a beautiful block until Dawkins sits or motions like he is sitting on the defender. The ref probably calls it for this reason. Frankly, Dawkins had no need to do it and it was stupid.

 

Cybo:

 

The rule: “Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:

grabbing or tackling an opponent;

hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or

pulling him to the ground.

Penalty: For holding by the offense: Loss of 10 yards.”

 

 

In the video from Parrino at about the 5 second mark the Miami player’s jersey may move as if being tugged. It is exceptionally brief and not apparent from the camera angle is it is caused by Cybo grabbing. 

 

The refs probably judged this as “restricting” the defender’s path.

 

Again, this is simply trying to look at the rules and plays objectively. Thoughts?

 

I appreciate your analysis, but my thoughts are that these were both terrible calls.  Incredibly marginal calls inconsequential to the plays.  There are at least ten uncalled holding calls per game worse than these.