Saints fired Dennis Allen …. who’s next?

[JGMcD2]

15 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

You have the wrong year. That was 2018 when they ate all the salary cap and had 5 WRs on the roster that none of which belonged in the NFL. The oline was comically bad. 

Popular projections had them going between 3-13 and 5-11. 

 

Their leading receiver in 2017 was Charles Clay with 558 yards. LeSean McCoy was 2nd with 448 and Deonte Thompson who was released by the Bears 5 weeks into the season was our 3rd leading receiver with 430 yards, which was a career high for him. 

 

They were supposed to be terrible that year and somehow won 9 games, that's the point, roster was bad and McDermott won 9 games. Then won 6 in 2018.

 

You said McDermott couldn't win 5 with the Saints roster, and managed to win 9 and 6 with teams that were as bad or worse. 

 

Thank you for bringing up the point about 2018 to further prove your original post was stupid.

[thenorthremembers]

41 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Sean McDermott (ZERO appearances, 0 wins)

 

So when we get bounced in the Divisional round this year, you'll say "Oh it was a transition year, let's keep McDermott". And then next year when we get bounced in the Divisional round you'll say "He broke the drought (8 years ago), and the next coach could be worse!"... and then before you know it, another 5 years have gone by, Josh is passed his prime, and we've wasted him on a coach who has zero situational awareness of the ability to take over a game in any way.

 

Not good enough for me.

 

We have a Josh. We have a window with Josh. A pretty big one considering he should have a 10-15 year career. But we are already 6 years (halfway?) through it and have zero to show except "13 seconds".

 

I dont need the next Belichick or Andy Reid. No one ever said that, you made it up. I just need someone who can win one Championship, and McDermott has proven time and time again that he aint it.

 

edit:

 

I dont need the next Belichick or Reid. I just want to avoid Marvin Lewis and Marty Schottenheimer.

 

 

The Divisional round is "bounced early" when you have Josh Allen and a 13-4 regular season record.

 

We've made 1 AFC Championship and the only time we were close to going back to it, McD directly blew it with bad coaching in 13 seconds.

 

Only 7 AFC franchises have made the AFC Championship game since McDermott has been a coach.  The Bills under McDermott are one of them.  I think Bills fans fail to realize how hard it is to get to that game let alone the Super Bowl even if you have an elite talent at the QB position.   Josh Allen is without question the 2nd best QB in the league, that said the best Quarterback in the league has beaten him 3 of the 4 years the Bills have sent a real contender to the playoffs under McDermott.    @Ethan in Cleveland said it above Brady or Mahomes have been the quarterback for 75% of Super Bowl winning teams since McDermott came into the league.   

 

Going to need to agree to disagree but firing McDermott after this year if he doesnt make it to the AFC Championship game because Dr. Dawkenstein on Two Bills Drive randomly choose that game as what constitutes not being bounced early in the playoffs would be asinine.  

 

 

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

 

Only 7 AFC franchises have made the AFC Championship game since McDermott has been a coach.  The Bills under McDermott are one of them.  I think Bills fans fail to realize how hard it is to get to that game let alone the Super Bowl even if you have an elite talent at the QB position.   Josh Allen is without question the 2nd best QB in the league, that said the best Quarterback in the league has beaten him 3 of the 4 years the Bills have sent a real contender to the playoffs under McDermott.    @Ethan in Cleveland said it above Brady or Mahomes have been the quarterback for 75% of Super Bowl winning teams since McDermott came into the league.   

 

Going to need to agree to disagree but firing McDermott after this year if he doesnt make it to the AFC Championship game because Dr. Dawkenstein on Two Bills Drive randomly choose that game as what constitutes not being bounced early in the playoffs would be asinine.  

 

 

 

 

Not sure what your point is. Josh is just as good as Mahomes and Brady. For two years all we heard was get KC at home in the playoffs. Well another failure. The team has underperformed in the playoffs ever since Josh walked off the field with the lead and 13 seconds left in the game. 

Entire team didn't show up for Bengals. They struggled with Miami and Pittsburgh at home. They lost to KC in a game that was not as close as the final score.

McDermott defenders will say Hamlin injury or LB injuries are the reason they lost. 

It's really pointless to argue anymore. We are stuck with McDermott.  

Our only hope is Allen has the ball with no time left on the clock. 

[JGMcD2]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Sean McDermott (ZERO appearances, 0 wins)

 

So when we get bounced in the Divisional round this year, you'll say "Oh it was a transition year, let's keep McDermott". And then next year when we get bounced in the Divisional round you'll say "He broke the drought (8 years ago), and the next coach could be worse!"... and then before you know it, another 5 years have gone by, Josh is passed his prime, and we've wasted him on a coach who has zero situational awareness of the ability to take over a game in any way.

 

Not good enough for me.

 

We have a Josh. We have a window with Josh. A pretty big one considering he should have a 10-15 year career. But we are already 6 years (halfway?) through it and have zero to show except "13 seconds".

 

I dont need the next Belichick or Andy Reid. No one ever said that, you made it up. I just need someone who can win one Championship, and McDermott has proven time and time again that he aint it.

 

edit:

 

I dont need the next Belichick or Reid. I just want to avoid Marvin Lewis and Marty Schottenheimer.

The subtle point I was trying to make is that McDermott has been directly impeded by Belichick and Reid - he had to play in the same division as Belichick and Reid's Chiefs have eliminated the Bills 3 out of the last 4 seasons. It's going to take some breaks to get there and "win one Championship" when you're going against arguably the greatest ever each season. 

 

Would you be happy with someone like Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan? I would be thrilled to have someone like McVay or Shanahan, as I view them as the next closest tier down from Belichick and Reid over the last decade. The problem is they haven't been very good at taking down Belichick and (more importantly) Reid either.

 

McVay vs Belichick and Reid (2-2)

 

11/19/2018 Rams beat Chiefs 54-51

2/3/2019 Patriots beat Rams 13-3 (Super Bowl)

12/10/2020 Rams beat Patriots 24-3

11/27/2022 Chiefs beats Rams 26-10

 

Shanahan vs Belichick and Reid (1-5)

 

9/23/2018 Chiefs beat 49ers 38-27

2/2/2020 Chiefs beat 49ers 31-20 (Super Bowl)

10/25/2020 49ers beat Patriots 33-6

10/23/2022 Chiefs beat 49ers 44-23

2/11/2024 Chiefs beat 49ers 25-22 (Super Bowl)

10/20/2024 Chiefs beat 49ers 28-18

 

They're 3-7 combined and 0-3 in the playoffs. 

 

For comparison sake...

 

McDermott vs Belichick and Reid (13-14)

 

7-8 vs Belichick (1-0 in the playoffs)

4-4 vs Reid (0-3 in the playoffs)

 

13-14 and 0-3 in the playoffs. 

 

I wasn't suggesting that you asked for us to find Belichick or Reid. Instead, I was trying to illustrate my main point, that in my opinion in order to get what you're asking for, we better find someone like Belichick or Reid. Why? Because if we don't, we'd be lucky to get a Zac Taylor or Doug Pederson. Someone that MIGHT catch lightning in a bottle but are as likely to miss the dance all together.

 

There are FAR MORE guys like Zac Taylor and Doug Pederson than there are Bill Belichick and Andy Reid. Then there are FAR MORE guys who are worse than Zac Taylor and Doug Pederson. I feel like I'm being pretty objective here when I say that Sean McDermott is a better coach than Zac Taylor or Doug Pederson, and seeing that head coach hiring is an imperfect science, tells me it's more likely we get a Zac Taylor/Doug Pederson type... and maybe even worse.
 

BONUS:
 

As I stated above, I think McVay and Shanahan are in that next tier behind Belichick and Reid this decade. I also believe that McDermott is in that same tier, as he has played in the much more challenging conference. 

 

McDermott is currently 3-0 when matched up against McVay and Shanahan and he gets a crack at them again later this season. 

Edited 10 hours ago by JGMcD2

[DrDawkinstein]

11 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

The subtle point I was trying to make is that McDermott has been directly impeded by Belichick and Reid - he had to play in the same division as Belichick and Reid's Chiefs have eliminated the Bills 3 out of the last 4 seasons. It's going to take some breaks to get there and "win one Championship" when you're going against arguably the greatest ever each season. 

 

Would you be happy with someone like Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan? I would be thrilled to have someone like McVay or Shanahan, as I view them as the next closest tier down from Belichick and Reid over the last decade. The problem is they haven't been very good at taking down Belichick and (more importantly) Reid either.

 

McVay vs Belichick and Reid (2-2)

 

11/19/2018 Rams beat Chiefs 54-51

2/3/2019 Patriots beat Rams 13-3 (Super Bowl)

12/10/2020 Rams beat Patriots 24-3

11/27/2022 Chiefs beats Rams 26-10

 

Shanahan vs Belichick and Reid (1-5)

 

9/23/2018 Chiefs beat 49ers 38-27

2/2/2020 Chiefs beat 49ers 31-20 (Super Bowl)

10/25/2020 49ers beat Patriots 33-6

10/23/2022 Chiefs beat 49ers 44-23

2/11/2024 Chiefs beat 49ers 25-22 (Super Bowl)

10/20/2024 Chiefs beat 49ers 28-18

 

They're 3-7 combined and 0-3 in the playoffs. 

 

For comparison sake...

 

McDermott vs Belichick and Reid (13-14)

 

7-8 vs Belichick (1-0 in the playoffs)

4-4 vs Reid (0-3 in the playoffs)

 

13-14 and 0-3 in the playoffs. 

 

I wasn't suggesting that you asked for us to find Belichick or Reid. Instead, I was trying to illustrate my main point, that in my opinion in order to get what you're asking for, we better find someone like Belichick or Reid. Why? Because if we don't, we'd be lucky to get a Zac Taylor or Doug Pederson. Someone that MIGHT catch lightning in a bottle but are as likely to miss the dance all together.

 

There are FAR MORE guys like Zac Taylor and Doug Pederson than there are Bill Belichick and Andy Reid. Then there are FAR MORE guys who are worse than Zac Taylor and Doug Pederson. I feel like I'm being pretty objective here when I say that Sean McDermott is a better coach than Zac Taylor or Doug Pederson, and seeing that head coach hiring is an imperfect science, tells me it's more likely we get a Zac Taylor/Doug Pederson type... and maybe even worse.
 

BONUS:
 

As I stated above, I think McVay and Shanahan are in that next tier behind Belichick and Reid this decade. I also believe that McDermott is in that same tier, as he has played in the much more challenging conference. 

 

McDermott is currently 3-0 when matched up against McVay and Shanahan and he gets a crack at them again later this season. 

 

It's very simple: If we exit the playoffs in or before the Divisional round this year, then I am for bringing ANYONE else in. I dont care about records and odds and past performances against Reid and Belichick.

 

I understand the odds against winning a Super Bowl. I understand the next coach could be worse. But what we have right now isnt going to do it.

 

My biggest concern is getting to the end of Josh Allen's career, a GENERATIONAL talent which is unlikely we EVER see again. And all we have to show for it is "13 seconds".

 

With all your research, can you name me a Head Coach who, in year 7 or more of being paired with his Franchise QB made the proper changes and won (or even went to) a Super Bowl? Which coaches took 7+ years of their franchise QB's career to make a Super Bowl?

[machine gun kelly]

3 hours ago, Fixxxer said:

The cowboys offense loooks like dog turd, my brother was up in arms all day long during that game......

Either they fire the HC or they start looking for a new QB.... 

 

I just saw it was reported 25 minutes ago Dak will miss several weeks with a hamstring injury.  McCarthy’s toast.  The idea of BB wouldn’t make sense as Jerrah likes a coach he can push around.  He tried an alpha male in Jimmy Johnson, amd then Parcells.  Neither worked.  The owner is his worst enemy.

 

One if the many things I like about the Pegulas is they hire good football minds and provide resources, and then stay out of the way.  Some owners would have pushed the issue to move on from Elam, but he came in handy yesterday.  One of McBeanes best assets is insuring some level of depth on this team.

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

3 hours ago, Sestak4ever said:

who's next?

 

[JGMcD2]

24 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's very simple: If we exit the playoffs in or before the Divisional round this year, then I am for bringing ANYONE else in. I dont care about records and odds and past performances against Reid and Belichick.

 

I understand the odds against winning a Super Bowl. I understand the next coach could be worse. But what we have right now isnt going to do it.

 

My biggest concern is getting to the end of Josh Allen's career, a GENERATIONAL talent which is unlikely we EVER see again. And all we have to show for it is "13 seconds".

 

With all your research, can you name me a Head Coach who, in year 7 or more of being paired with his Franchise QB made the proper changes and won (or even went to) a Super Bowl? Which coaches took 7+ years of their franchise QB's career to make a Super Bowl?

I understand what you're saying, and at some point, I think it could be necessary. I'm just not at that point yet.

 

I'm not afraid of getting better, for the purpose of the exercise, can you walk me through how you would find his replacement? Who are the top targets?

[DrDawkinstein]

15 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

I understand what you're saying, and at some point, I think it could be necessary. I'm just not at that point yet.

 

Fair enough, and I am definitely not saying he should be fired today. I'll give him one more playoff series to work with. And mark my words, if McD proves me wrong and does win a Championship, then I am all for giving him a lifetime contract and carte blanche to do whatever he wants whenever he wants however he wants.

 

15 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

I'm not afraid of getting better, for the purpose of the exercise, can you walk me through how you would find his replacement? Who are the top targets?

 

My easy answer is: that's not up for us to decide. That is why Terry pays the consulting firm a lot of money. And there werent many people around when we were complaining about Rex Ryan who were arguing for Sean McDermott (or even knew who he was at that point).

 

But if you want names of guys I've never met or interviewed then I'd say:

 

Mike Vrabel, from a situational awareness/master of the game perspective. A Belichick disciple who, more than once, has beaten BB at his own tricks with pushing the limits to the rules of the game. I'd even gauge his level of interest in keeping Joe Brady at OC.

 

Outside of Vrabel, any of the hot OCs, Ben Johnson, Bobby Slowick, whoever. Since nowadays, if you dont make your OC the HC then someone else will and you'll always have instability for your QB.

 

edit:

 

btw, now that I answered your questions. Who do you have as a HC who took 7+ years with his QB to win a Super Bowl?

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by DrDawkinstein

[balln]

45 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's very simple: If we exit the playoffs in or before the Divisional round this year, then I am for bringing ANYONE else in. I dont care about records and odds and past performances against Reid and Belichick.

 

I understand the odds against winning a Super Bowl. I understand the next coach could be worse. But what we have right now isnt going to do it.

 

My biggest concern is getting to the end of Josh Allen's career, a GENERATIONAL talent which is unlikely we EVER see again. And all we have to show for it is "13 seconds".

 

With all your research, can you name me a Head Coach who, in year 7 or more of being paired with his Franchise QB made the proper changes and won (or even went to) a Super Bowl? Which coaches took 7+ years of their franchise QB's career to make a Super Bowl?

This x1000

[Fr. Jerk]

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

55 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

It's very simple: If we exit the playoffs in or before the Divisional round this year, then I am for bringing ANYONE else in.

If the Bills get Wrecks Ryan again, "I'll kill you a million times!" 😠

*
😉😁

 

[JGMcD2]

35 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

My easy answer is: that's not up for us to decide. That is why Terry pays the consulting firm a lot of money. And there werent many people around when we were complaining about Rex Ryan who were arguing for Sean McDermott (or even knew who he was at that point).

 

But if you want names of guys I've never met or interviewed then I'd say:

 

Mike Vrabel, from a situational awareness/master of the game perspective. A Belichick disciple who, more than once, has beaten BB at his own tricks with pushing the limits to the rules of the game. I'd even gauge his level of interest in keeping Joe Brady at OC.

 

Outside of Vrabel, any of the hot OCs, Ben Johnson, Bobby Slowick, whoever. Since nowadays, if you dont make your OC the HC then someone else will and you'll always have instability for your QB.

McDermott was a very highly thought of candidate prior to 2017. He received a call for a Head Coach interview with the Jets in 2015, the year we hired Rex. In 2016 he interviewed for 4 of the 7 head coach openings. He was the choice of 4/5 Browns executives in on their search, but owner Jimmy Haslam was the 1 person who vetoed it and opted to go with the hot OC candidate in Hue Jackson. He also interviewed for 3/6 openings in 2017 when we hired him. 

 

The part the scares me, is Terry paid a consulting firm a lot of money in 2015 to hire Rex Ryan, and then again in 2017. Here are the candidates from those cycles:

 

2015

 

Rex Ryan, former head coach (Jets)

Teryl Austin, defensive coordinator (Lions)

Darrell Bevell, offensive coordinator (Seahawks)

Adam Gase, offensive coordinator (Broncos)

Pep Hamilton, defensive coordinator (Colts)

Hue Jackson, offensive coordinator (Bengals)

Josh McDaniels, offensive coordinator (Patriots)

Dan Quinn, defensive coordinator (Seahawks)

Frank Reich, offensive coordinator (Chargers)

Greg Roman, offensive coordinator (49ers)

Jim Schwartz, defensive coordinator (Bills)

Kyle Shanahan, offensive coordinator (Browns)

Mike Shanahan, former head coach

Pat Shurmur, offensive coordinator (Eagles)

 

2017

 

Sean McDermott, defensive coordinator (Panthers)

Harold Goodwin, offensive coordinator (Cardinals)

Kris Richard, defensive coordinator (Seahawks)

Vance Joseph, defensive coordinator (Dolphins)

Anthony Lynn, offensive coordinator/interim head coach 

 

It's possible McDermott was the target the whole time, and the rest of the group was just interviewed to satisfy the Rooney Rule. Then again Vance Joseph and Anthony Lynn came out of that coaching cycle with head coach jobs - dodged a bullet there. The scariest part is that Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan were hired in that cycle, and we didn't bring either in for an interview. As I discussed earlier, those two are the tier below Belichick and Reid in my mind, and we didn't even interview them. 

 

Those lists are AWFUL to look at. They brought in 19 candidates for interviews, out of those 19 only 3 of them will be anywhere near a NFL HC job again - McDermott, Shanahan and Quinn. They passed on Quinn in 2015 for Rex Ryan, Quinn ran out of steam in ATL but is having a resurgence in WSH with Kingsbury and Daniels. Then you have Shanahan who they interviewed in 2015 and then opted not to pursue again in 2017. 

 

I'm curious to go back and look at other cycles now, but going back and looking through these quickly, it's telling me it's even more unlikely that a team is able to identify the right guy to elevate them. Other teams are missing left and right, and it's not even close. 

Edited 9 hours ago by JGMcD2

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, JGMcD2 said:

McDermott was a very highly thought of candidate prior to 2017. He received a call for a Head Coach interview with the Jets in 2015, the year we hired Rex. In 2016 he interviewed for 4 of the 7 head coach openings. He was the choice of 4/5 Browns executives in on their search, but owner Jimmy Haslam was the 1 person who vetoed it and opted to go with the hot OC candidate in Hue Jackson. He also interviewed for 3/6 openings in 2017 when we hired him. 

 

The part the scares me, is Terry paid a consulting firm a lot of money in 2015 to hire Rex Ryan, and then again in 2017. Here are the candidates from those cycles:

 

 

I didnt hear about the consulting firm until 2017.

 

The Ryan hire was supposedly all Terry, Russ Brandon, Doug Whaley. With Rex being Russ's guy and Whaley being talked into it...

 

I'd also add that none of those other coaches on that list had Josh Allen, or a QB even close to his level.

 

Funny how generational QB usually goes hand-in-hand with HoF level HC...

[bigduke6]

wont fix the Saints' problems.   until you replace Carr it'll just continue on.

[BuffaloBillyG]

4 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

BB has turned off the teams he’s interviewed with. His insistence on complete control of everything football is one big issue, but there seems to be more than that going on. I don’t think he coaches again. 

I think you're spot on with that. I don't think teams are chomping at the bit to give up control (if that's what he's asking) to a HC of his age and mindset UNLESS it's a complete PR move 

 

 

[JGMcD2]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I didnt hear about the consulting firm until 2017.

 

The Ryan hire was supposedly all Terry, Russ Brandon, Doug Whaley. With Rex being Russ's guy and Whaley being talked into it...

 

I'd also add that none of those other coaches on that list had Josh Allen, or a QB even close to his level.

 

Funny how generational QB usually goes hand-in-hand with HoF level HC...

I'd also add that all of those other coaches on that list that were hired had the opportunity to put together a process to go about identifying and acquiring a franchise QB. One guy on that list managed to identify and select a "Parody of a QB Prospect" and develop him. 

 

 

Sean McDermott is undoubtedly grateful for Josh Allen, but he is also an integral part of why Josh Allen developed into a generational QB. Stop acting like Josh Allen walked through the doors at One Bills Drive as a gift to McDermott, because by your own admission he was a "project QB prospect" that you didn't even think McDermott could develop to this point. 

 

If it was up to you, you'd have hired Josh McDaniels or Todd Haley - although I'll be honest with ya, Todd Haley did a heck of a job developing those QBs at Riverview High School the past couple of years! In fairness, that was after Todd Haley got canned as the Offensive Coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in 2018, you know, where he was tasked with developing 2018 #1 Overall Pick Baker Mayfield. 

Edited 7 hours ago by JGMcD2

[The Frankish Reich]

5 hours ago, Bruffalo said:

Dallas. Jerry Jones requires a sacrifice. 

Jerry worships some lame-ass gods if they're gonna be appeased by the ritual sacrifice of just Mike McCarthy.

They may demand an additional cheerleader or two plus next year's 6th rounder.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I think you're spot on with that. I don't think teams are chomping at the bit to give up control (if that's what he's asking) to a HC of his age and mindset UNLESS it's a complete PR move 

 

 

I agree. It's not like he has proven to be a good GM either. 

I'd be surprised if he coaches again. He likely is only going somewhere with an established QB. Who is going to have a need for a new HC that has an established QB? I can only think of Dallas off the top of my head, and I can't see Jerry and Bill getting along. 

[DrDawkinstein]

47 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

I'd also add that all of those other coaches on that list that were hired had the opportunity to put together a process to go about identifying and acquiring a franchise QB. One guy on that list managed to identify and select a "Parody of a QB Prospect" and develop him.

 

btw, now that I answered your questions. Who do you have as a HC who took 7+ years with his QB to win a Super Bowl?