What Is It With Elam?

[GaryPinC]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

You’re using 40 time as evidence that Elam should be playing over Douglas and/or Benford?  
 

Both Douglas and Benford have been great.  Elam sits because they are better. 
 

 

 

No.  Douglas and Benford are 1,2.  You don't just push them out and plug in Elam.      If Benford had been healthy for Miami, Elam never sees the field. 

 

But get Elam some work in games where the score isn't close like second half Seattle or Titans.  A series here, a series there.  This guy has speed and seems to be a playmaker with the ball.  He's no longer a big liability out there, give him some extra opportunities to grow and see if he takes off.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

I mean make your case that Charvarius Ward has more trade value than Benford right now. 
 

McDuffie is awesome but he’s a slot guy.  Is Taron Johnson more valuable than the 10th best CB? I’m not sure I’d agree with that either.

[That's No Moon]

21 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I mean make your case that Charvarius Ward has more trade value than Benford right now. 
 

McDuffie is awesome but he’s a slot guy.  Is Taron Johnson more valuable than the 10th best CB? I’m not sure I’d agree with that either.

Here's my case. San Francisco would laugh and hang up if we called to make that trade.

 

Let's understand the arguments here.  Yours is that Benford is a top 3 corner in the league.  Mine is that he's an average corner.

Edited Monday at 10:52 PM by That's No Moon

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Here's my case. San Francisco would laugh and hang up if we called to make that trade.

 

Let's understand the arguments here.  Yours is that Benford is a top 3 corner in the league.  Mine is that he's an average corner.

Here’s my case.

 

if the Niners called us up and said Ward for Benford, we also laugh and say no.

 

Ward is 28.

 

Benford is 24.

 

Ward has an $18M cap hit this season.

 

Benford has a $1M cap hit this season (and is under contract next year to boot).

 

So yeah. If you wanna go by trade value, I think Benny clears Ward by far.

[That's No Moon]

Just now, FireChans said:

Here’s my case.

 

if the Niners called us up and said Ward for Benford, we also laugh and say no.

 

Ward is 28.

 

Benford is 24.

 

Ward has an $18M cap hit this season.

 

Benford has a $1M cap hit this season (and is under contract next year to boot).

 

So yeah. If you wanna go by trade value, I think Benny clears Ward by far.

Again, my argument is that Benford is an average corner.  Given that most teams have two that slots him anywhere from 15 to 45.  You've got him top 3.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Again, my argument is that Benford is an average corner.  Given that most teams have two that slots him anywhere from 15 to 45.  You've got him top 3.

I don’t have him top 3. What I’m saying is I think he has a shot at at least a PB this season and may even be AP2. 
 

Combine that with his age and contract, and I think you’d be hard pressed to find 8 CB’s more valuable on the trade market, let alone 45! That’s absurd.

[That's No Moon]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I don’t have him top 3. What I’m saying is I think he has a shot at at least a PB this season and may even be AP2. 
 

Combine that with his age and contract, and I think you’d be hard pressed to find 8 CB’s more valuable on the trade market, let alone 45! That’s absurd.

1. You said to pick 3 better corners than Benford. 

2. Playing in the Pro Bowl doesn't mean REMOTELY the same thing as it used to given that none of the SB players can play in it and tons of guys opt out. So yeah, sure I guess he has a chance to play in the game given the current way they dole that out.  By that definition, Tyrod Taylor and Tyler Huntley are Pro Bowl quarterbacks.

[FireChans]

55 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

1. You said to pick 3 better corners than Benford. 

2. Playing in the Pro Bowl doesn't mean REMOTELY the same thing as it used to given that none of the SB players can play in it and tons of guys opt out. So yeah, sure I guess he has a chance to play in the game given the current way they dole that out.  By that definition, Tyrod Taylor and Tyler Huntley are Pro Bowl quarterbacks.

Oh my god. Do you even remember what you said 6 hours ago?

6 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

Off the top of my head McDuffie, Gardner, Jaire Alexander, Charvarius Ward, Patrick Surtain, Jaylon Johnson

 

A better way to do that is to go around the league and ask who would trade their top CB for Benford straight up.  Who would do it immediately? Who would consider it? Who would laugh and hang up the phone?

I played YOUR game.

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

Benford has been loads better than Sauce this year imo.
 

Of that list you mentioned, I think the only two players with no debate for a straight up trade for Benford would be Surtain and Johnson. McDuffie is excellent but is a slot guy. Ward is older. Jaire is old. Gardner has the pedigree and previous performance but has suffered with Saleh’s departure.

 

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I mean make your case that Charvarius Ward has more trade value than Benford right now.

 

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Combine that with his age and contract, and I think you’d be hard pressed to find 8 CB’s more valuable on the trade market, let alone 45! That’s absurd

Edited Tuesday at 12:07 AM by FireChans

[Beck Water]

On 11/3/2024 at 3:28 PM, Simon said:

 

I don't disagree but it is weird that he's not a regular in the dime.

 

Don't you want your dime back to be strong in run support?

[WideNine]

3 hours ago, Shortchaz said:

I think some coaches shape the scheme to fit the talent (or have some flexibility) where McDermott has a scheme and is rigid. Our best 11 are probably not on the field together as often as they would be on other teams. it’s a team mentality concept that (chicken/egg) might hinder the top end talent we have/get/find 

 

Yeah I know there are some who will disagree with me and they are welcome to it.

 

In no world was that a good defensive outing for us yesterday and some of that is the respect for Hill and Waddle, but have seen similar defensive performances and strategies this season.

 

We can mask a lot if our team can jump out and get early leads, but we get exposed by better teams who hang with us or take the lead and stay committed to running the ball.

 

We are near the bottom at 4.8 yds/attempt, but in good company with Detroit although they have faced fewer rushing attempts as we are a game up on them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Don't you want your dime back to be strong in run support?

 

It's a low priority, imo.

You're only going dime in the first place because you're so confident that they have to throw the ball on that down.

[That's No Moon]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Oh my god. Do you even remember what you said 6 hours ago?

I played YOUR game.

Yeah I'm done. You win.

[PoundingDog]

Some Elam tape from the Miami game. Pretty good other than the Hill double move rep

 

 

[BigAl2526]

No mystery.  As Gunner Bill points out, Elam is pretty much limited to being an outside CB.  Douglas and Benford are an excellent tandem.  McDermott is always going to opt not to fix something that isn't broke.  It is highly likely that Buffalo does not pick up his fifth year option and Elam goes on to start for another team.  

[Thurman#1]

On 11/4/2024 at 6:27 AM, Malazan said:

 

It's not that weird. He's playing behind two really, really good players.

 

 

Yeah, this is the way it looks to me.

23 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

No mystery.  As Gunner Bill points out, Elam is pretty much limited to being an outside CB.  Douglas and Benford are an excellent tandem.  McDermott is always going to opt not to fix something that isn't broke.  It is highly likely that Buffalo does not pick up his fifth year option and Elam goes on to start for another team.  

 

 

You could definitely be right here, but equally, Elam might be the reason they don't give Rasul another contract. I don't think it's as predictable as you say here. But we'll see.

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

Here's my case. San Francisco would laugh and hang up if we called to make that trade.

 

Let's understand the arguments here.  Yours is that Benford is a top 3 corner in the league.  Mine is that he's an average corner.

 

Benford is already playing well above average. Top 3 corner is a stretch but he has been one of the top 10 corners in the NFL this season. He's having an excellent year.

 

Just had a quick look, he is ranked 7th by PFF once you discount the slot guys. I know PFF isn't everything, especially for corners, but above him are:

 

Zyon McCollum (similar to Benford picked in the 5th round of the same draft isn't getting the buzz but is having a breakout year), then Jalen Ramsey, DJ Reed, Marlon Humphrey, Jaire Alexander (who are all established very good or elite level corners respectively) and then Kristian Fulton who I loved coming out of LSU got lost in Tennessee but has been a revelation in LA with the Chargers.

 

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

Here’s my case.

 

if the Niners called us up and said Ward for Benford, we also laugh and say no.

 

Ward is 28.

 

Benford is 24.

 

Ward has an $18M cap hit this season.

 

Benford has a $1M cap hit this season (and is under contract next year to boot).

 

So yeah. If you wanna go by trade value, I think Benny clears Ward by far.

 

Yea there is no way I'd trade Benford straight up for Ward. None whatsoever. I don't think the 9ers make the trade the other way either mind you. 

Edited Tuesday at 10:52 AM by GunnerBill

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Don't you want your dime back to be strong in run support?

 

Your dime also has to transition from moving backwards to moving forwards (and vice versa) quickly a ton. And THAT is and always has been the biggest deficiency in Elam's game IMO. It is why he is much better in man than zone. Zone is a lot more read and react and you are going back and forward. Man it is just possibly press at the line then turn and run with your guy or in off coverage simply turn and run. 

[Doc Brown]

11 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

Again, my argument is that Benford is an average corner.  Given that most teams have two that slots him anywhere from 15 to 45.  You've got him top 3.

He's been very good this season.  Probably in that 10 to 20 range among CB's.  QB's this season have a 65.6 passer rating when targeting him this season (10th best in the league).  Him and Groot be my top priority extensions going into next season.  

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, PoundingDog said:

Some Elam tape from the Miami game. Pretty good other than the Hill double move rep

 

 

 

Encouraging. Outside corner is an important spot to have depth. I think ultimately Kaiir's last chance as a Bill will be in the competition to replace Douglas next camp. My guess is they bring in an experienced cheaper vet and let that guy, Kaiir and possibly a day 2 / early day 3 pick compete for the job. If Kaiir wins it he will be going into a contract year because no way the Bills are picking up his option.

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

He's been very good this season.  Probably in that 10 to 20 range among CB's.  QB's this season have a 65.6 passer rating when targeting him this season (10th best in the league).  Him and Groot be my top priority extensions going into next season.  

 

See above. By PFF 7th among outside corners. I think 10 to 20 is low. 

 

Agree with the rest

 

[GaryPinC]

11 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

 McDermott is always going to opt not to fix something that isn't broke.    

And this is the crux of where I feel McDermott needs to improve.  Thinking something isn't broke during the regular season isn't the same as when we are up against the top teams in the playoffs.   Push the development of targeted rookies/backups that could have critical roles in improving what doesn't appear broken yet.  Especially if they may be playmakers, not just scheme executors.  DL, safety and CB.  It's going to take multiple games for rookies/backups to get comfortable on the field and there is no substitute for it.

 

I'm not saying the change of personnel has to happen, just that McD whittle out some opportunity when game conditions allow and see if these  guys show enough to warrant it.

 

In Elam's case, he seems able to handle game situations, but no one will truly know how well until he gets game minutes.  Why wait until next year if there's a possibility you can develop him to contribute in the playoffs this year?

 

Yeah, this guy gets it:   https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/bills-defense-in-desperate-need-of-injection-of-rookie-talent/ar-AA1tybz8?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=658e77147ca04fdda4486a48d8c5bcf0&ei=17