Cook/Shakir/Oliver/Benford vs Hall/Wilson/Williams/Gardner

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I can't tell if you're talking Cook or Hall.

 

Cook's vision is excellent. It's one of his best traits. Hall's is one of his worst. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Cook's vision is excellent. It's one of his best traits. Hall's is one of his worst. 

 

Yeah I don't know where all this hype comes from for Breece Hall. Seems like it's only a Bills fan thing, maybe because he was talked about as a 1st round option for us and he happened to have a couple good games against us. Jets fans on social media complain about his vision, there are too many times when a hole is there and he misses it. Cook has been outstanding in that respect especially this year where I'm not sure I've seen him miss a single rushing lane. Only thing that leaves you wanting with Cook is his contact balance but you can't have it all (and Hall isn't really any better in that area). Cook's burst plus his quick feet plus his vision makes him pretty close to an elite RB IMO. He's having his most complete year so far too.

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I don't know where all this hype comes from for Breece Hall. Seems like it's only a Bills fan thing, maybe because he was talked about as a 1st round option for us and he happened to have a couple good games against us. Jets fans on social media complain about his vision, there are too many times when a hole is there and he misses it. Cook has been outstanding in that respect especially this year where I'm not sure I've seen him miss a single rushing lane. Only thing that leaves you wanting with Cook is his contact balance but you can't have it all (and Hall isn't really any better in that area). Cook's burst plus his quick feet plus his vision makes him pretty close to an elite RB IMO. He's having his most complete year so far too.

you think Cook is close to an elite RB? man i can think of like 10 guys off the top of my head who are better

[NoSaint]

27 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I don't know where all this hype comes from for Breece Hall. Seems like it's only a Bills fan thing, maybe because he was talked about as a 1st round option for us and he happened to have a couple good games against us. Jets fans on social media complain about his vision, there are too many times when a hole is there and he misses it. Cook has been outstanding in that respect especially this year where I'm not sure I've seen him miss a single rushing lane. Only thing that leaves you wanting with Cook is his contact balance but you can't have it all (and Hall isn't really any better in that area). Cook's burst plus his quick feet plus his vision makes him pretty close to an elite RB IMO. He's having his most complete year so far too.

because we only see highlights and projections of high fantasy draft pick status? 
 

I think cook and hall are not widely spaced in this discussion. For 1 game on Sunday I probably take breece but not mad if I get cook. The next few years? I could see going either way 

18 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

you think Cook is close to an elite RB? man i can think of like 10 guys off the top of my head who are better

depends on defining elite? 
 

he’s definitely a tier up from the just solid starters but not some generational talent either. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

because we only see highlights and projections of high fantasy draft pick status? 
 

I think cook and hall are not widely spaced in this discussion. For 1 game on Sunday I probably take breece but not mad if I get cook. The next few years? I could see going either way 

depends on defining elite? 
 

he’s definitely a tier up from the just solid starters but not some generational talent either. 

elite to me is top 3 at your position

[HappyDays]

40 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

you think Cook is close to an elite RB? man i can think of like 10 guys off the top of my head who are better

 

I get myself in trouble when I say things like that because I don't think through exactly how many players I would define as "elite." McCaffrey, Barkley, Henry, Kamara, and Robinson for sure. Then you have a 2nd tier that's probably like Taylor, Mixon, Dobbins, Jones? I'm doing this off the top of my head. Cook I think I would put in the lower end of that 2nd tier. I don't know how you would classify RBs like Achane and Gibbs where it's very boom or bust.

 

Putting that list together now, saying he's close to elite is probably a stretch too far. I'll say this - for this offense with this QB I value Cook's traits more than I would value say Joe Mixon even though Mixon is probably the better all around RB in a vacuum. We get the benefit of defenses giving us a lot of open space within 5 yards of the LoS because of Allen under center so I value the burst and cutting and pass catching ability that Cook gives us over a more traditional back like Mixon.

 

Edited November 1 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I get myself in trouble when I say things like that because I don't think through exactly how many players I would define as "elite." McCaffrey, Barkley, Henry, Kamara, and Robinson for sure. Then you have a 2nd tier that's probably like Taylor, Mixon, Dobbins, Jones? I'm doing this off the top of my head. Cook I think I would put in the lower end of that 2nd tier. I don't know how you would classify RBs like Achane and Gibbs where it's very boom or bust.

 

Putting that list together now, saying he's close to elite is probably a stretch too far. I'll say this - for this offense with this QB I value Cook's traits more than I would value say Joe Mixon even though Mixon is probably the better all around RB in a vacuum. We get the benefit of defenses giving us a lot of open space within 5 yards of the LoS because of Allen under center so I value the burst and cutting and pass catching ability that Cook gives us over a more traditional back like Mixon.

 

reason i push back is because there are a lot of these interesting type backs in the league rn who have talent but aren't the complete package...guys like bigsby, bucky irving, kenneth walker, najee etc

 

gibbs benefits from that oline and the system in detroit but he is legit

robinson is too for sure

 

all my top tier guys have the kind of innate physicality that i think cook lacks

[HappyDays]

27 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

For 1 game on Sunday I probably take breece but not mad if I get cook.

 

Yeah I just don't agree with that at all. Hall misses too many rushing lanes and he has mediocre lateral movement. Give him a wide open lane with space and he can possibly score a 70 yard TD, but that doesn't happen frequently enough to make up for his weaknesses IMO. He had that one run against us that should have been a TD but he just kept running along the sideline which gave Rapp an easy angle to make the tackle, and the Jets ended up getting no points on that drive. On that same play I can almost guarantee Cook makes one cut to the middle and gets in the endzone.

[gonzo1105]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I get myself in trouble when I say things like that because I don't think through exactly how many players I would define as "elite." McCaffrey, Barkley, Henry, Kamara, and Robinson for sure. Then you have a 2nd tier that's probably like Taylor, Mixon, Dobbins, Jones? I'm doing this off the top of my head. Cook I think I would put in the lower end of that 2nd tier. I don't know how you would classify RBs like Achane and Gibbs where it's very boom or bust.

 

Putting that list together now, saying he's close to elite is probably a stretch too far. I'll say this - for this offense with this QB I value Cook's traits more than I would value say Joe Mixon even though Mixon is probably the better all around RB in a vacuum. We get the benefit of defenses giving us a lot of open space within 5 yards of the LoS because of Allen under center so I value the burst and cutting and pass catching ability that Cook gives us over a more traditional back like Mixon.

 

I would argue that Cook is every bit as good as Taylor and better than Dobbins because of his running and catching ability and his durability 
 

I think Cook is a very good but not elite RB. He is better than a lot of people give him credit for esp now that the dropsies seem to be behind him for the most part. 
 

He’s  a great fit for this offense

Edited November 1 by gonzo1105

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

reason i push back is because there are a lot of these interesting type backs in the league rn who have talent but aren't the complete package...guys like bigsby, bucky irving, kenneth walker, najee etc

 

gibbs benefits from that oline and the system in detroit but he is legit

robinson is too for sure

 

all my top tier guys have the kind of innate physicality that i think cook lacks

 

I'm not gonna analyze player for player but sure there are a lot of RBs in the league that could be reasonably classified as 2nd tier. There's also a question of how much drop off you get from 2nd tier to 3rd tier RBs in terms of real production. I'm not advocating to give Cook a 2nd contract. Just saying I rate him as a significantly better all around RB than Hall and I really like his skill set for our offense in particular.

 

Edited November 1 by HappyDays

[billsfan_34]

16 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

It’s the big market vs small market affect, big school/small school , high draft pick vs low draft pick. 
 

 

And I am good with that! Lets just win 😉

[folz]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

you think Cook is close to an elite RB? man i can think of like 10 guys off the top of my head who are better

 

From week 1 of the 2023 season until now---week 8 of 2024 (last 25 NFL games) James Cook is 4th in yards from scrimmage for running backs. Now, of course, guys get injured (for instance McCaffrey is a much better RB, but is lower on the list due to being injured, and obviously, some offenses are better than others). But still, Cook has to still be in the top 10 at least if you are talking about right now and not say career/past history. Are there really 10 guys on that list that you would put ahead of Cook right now? I think I'd only put like 4-5 guys ahead of him right now. [Interesting that the number one spot goes to Breece Hall. Also note that Cook has the 4th fewest touches of the top 18 guys. For instance, if you pro-rate Cook's yards per touch to the number of touches Breece has, Cook would have 2,527 yards. If you pro-rated all of the players to 460 touches, Cook would be in 3rd---behind only Jamyr Gibbs and Christian McCaffrey.]

 

Yards from scrimmage for RBs (2023-2024) [and number of touches]

1. Breece Hall 2,414               [460 touches]

2. Derrick Henry 2,393        [461]

3. Bijan Robinson 2,253       [419]

4. James Cook 2,164             [394]

5. Joe Mixon 2,134                [449]

6. Saquan Barkley 2,114        [435]

7. Rachaad White 2,031        [431]

8. C. McCaffrey 2,023          [339] 

9. Jamyr Gibbs 2,006            [345]

10, Kyren Williams 1,973        [418]

11. Alvin Kamara 1,972           [416]

12. Najee Harris 1,949           [437]

13. Tony Pollard 1,919            [442]

14. James Conner 1,917         [380]

15. D'Andre Swift 1,910           [396]

16. Josh Jacobs 1,883            [432]

17. Chubba Hubbard 1,836     [419]

18. Travis Etienne 1,805          [397]

19. David Montgomery 1,685  [342]

20. Ken Walker 1,672              [349]

21. Brian Robinson 1,641         [324]

22. Aaron Jones 1,617             [298]

 

[Einstein]

11 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I know he made that great catch tonight but I have Jefferson, Hill, AJ Brown, Collins, and Chase as the top 5 WR's.  Definitely top 10 though.

 

Others may have learned about Wilson last night, but ive been following him since college.

 

He is incredible. Absolutely incredible.

 

He had almost 100 receptions last year with Zach Wilson throwing the ball. Just think about that. And he is on pace for 113 receptions this year.

 

I’m shocked to see Nico Collins is in your top 5. I mean… he’s good… but top 5!? Nico Collins? The guy who averages around 60 receptions per year?

 

Chase is another I don’t agree with. I’d take Wilson over Collins and Chase in a split second.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

reason i push back is because there are a lot of these interesting type backs in the league rn who have talent but aren't the complete package...guys like bigsby, bucky irving, kenneth walker, najee etc

 

gibbs benefits from that oline and the system in detroit but he is legit

robinson is too for sure

 

all my top tier guys have the kind of innate physicality that i think cook lacks

 

My elite tier is:

 

CMC, Henry, Kamara, Barkley

 

The next tier is:

 

Bijan, Gibbs, Taylor, Walker

 

I think I'd have Cook at the top of the next tier after that.

Edited November 1 by GunnerBill

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Others may have learned about Wilson last night, but ive been following him since college.

 

He is incredible. Absolutely incredible.

 

He had almost 100 receptions last year with Zach Wilson throwing the ball. Just think about that. And he is on pace for 113 receptions this year.

 

I’m shocked to see Nico Collins is in your top 5. I mean… he’s good… but top 5!? Nico Collins? The guy who averages around 60 receptions per year?

 

Chase is another I don’t agree with. I’d take Wilson over Collins and Chase in a split second.

 

Its the drops and the lack of physicality that keep Wilson out of that elite tier for me. No way would I have him above Chase. Not in a million years.

 

I think he has elite talent. But he isn't consistent enough for a player of his talent IMO. 

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I just don't agree with that at all. Hall misses too many rushing lanes and he has mediocre lateral movement. Give him a wide open lane with space and he can possibly score a 70 yard TD, but that doesn't happen frequently enough to make up for his weaknesses IMO. He had that one run against us that should have been a TD but he just kept running along the sideline which gave Rapp an easy angle to make the tackle, and the Jets ended up getting no points on that drive. On that same play I can almost guarantee Cook makes one cut to the middle and gets in the endzone.

 

This is 100% totally and absolutely on the money.

Edited November 1 by GunnerBill

[Doc Brown]

31 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Others may have learned about Wilson last night, but ive been following him since college.

 

He is incredible. Absolutely incredible.

 

He had almost 100 receptions last year with Zach Wilson throwing the ball. Just think about that. And he is on pace for 113 receptions this year.

 

I’m shocked to see Nico Collins is in your top 5. I mean… he’s good… but top 5!? Nico Collins? The guy who averages around 60 receptions per year?

 

Chase is another I don’t agree with. I’d take Wilson over Collins and Chase in a split second.

I'd have Collins sixth because I forgot about Cee Dee Lamb.  Collins is a physical freak who needed some development but was the best in the league production wise before his injury.  The offense looks lost without him.  It's just the lack of strength that has Wilson in that six to ten range.

[Einstein]

33 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Its the drops

 

You just described Chase.

 

Thats his #1 issue. He is a drop machine and always has been. 

 

I think he had more drops in his first 20 or so games that Wilson has had in his entire career. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

You just described Chase.

 

Thats his #1 issue. He is a drop machine and always has been. 

 

I think he had more drops in his first 20 or so games that Wilson has had in his entire career. 

Chase doesn’t drop the ball anymore.

22 of his 29 drops came in his first two years.  He is now in the top 10 with least amount of drops.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/stat-of-the-jay-amari-cooper-leads-the-league-in-dropped-passes-since-2021-but-a-bengals-receiver-ranks-second-01jabae5w1p6#:~:text=Chase has 29 drops in,in drop percentage (8.8).

 

Here is an entire article about Wilson’s negatives.

 

https://jetsxfactor.com/2024/01/13/ny-jets-truth-garrett-wilson-2023-performance/

 

“However, 72% of his targets were catchable — but Wilson caught just 57.9% of his targets. That means 14.1% of his passes could have been caught but were not.“

[Einstein]

46 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Chase doesn’t drop the ball anymore.

 

Well that’s good to hear. He was a drop machine before.

 

As for the Wilson link… I mean.. a teams fans bitching about their player? Kinda reminds me of people bashing Allen on this forum.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Well that’s good to hear. He was a drop machine before.

 

As for the Wilson link… I mean.. a teams fans bitching about their player? Kinda reminds me of people bashing Allen on this forum.

 

There is one person that I know of that bashes Allen.  Saying Allen had a bad game doesn’t mean you are bashing him.  It means you are saying he had a bad game.  
 

Every single player in the history of the NFL has had several bad games.  Many on this board when they see any criticism of Allen think that crowd is blaming Allen for everything.