Cook/Shakir/Oliver/Benford vs Hall/Wilson/Williams/Gardner

[Chugga]

I know it’s a tale as old as time, but one of my biggest pet peeves as a Bills fan is the fact that the two groups of players listed in the subject of this topic are discussed in totally different terms.

 

I’ve watched games where Wilson has been silent (or drops balls), Hall has been stuffed, Sauce can’t tackle and these guys are viewed as all pro talent regardless of any of their faults.  Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying they aren’t talented players.  Williams in particular is a beast but Benford since he was a rookie has been absolutely lights out when healthy and you can’t find an analyst in the world that will put Benford in the same conversation as Sauce.  The Jets tried to manufacture a 1,000 yard season for Hall (they failed) and yet general consensus is Hall is a top 5 RB in the league.  Cook coasted to 1,100 yards that same season.

 

Am I the crazy one?  Are these average talents and I’m just wearing homer goggles?  Because I swear what I see on Sunday out of Shakir & Benford in particular is insanely high quality play.

[gonzo1105]

It’s the big market vs small market affect, big school/small school , high draft pick vs low draft pick. 
 

 

[No_Matter_What]

7 minutes ago, Chugga said:

I know it’s a tale as old as time, but one of my biggest pet peeves as a Bills fan is the fact that the two groups of players listed in the subject of this topic are discussed in totally different terms.

 

I’ve watched games where Wilson has been silent (or drops balls), Hall has been stuffed, Sauce can’t tackle and these guys are viewed as all pro talent regardless of any of their faults.  Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying they aren’t talented players.  Williams in particular is a beast but Benford since he was a rookie has been absolutely lights out when healthy and you can’t find an analyst in the world that will put Benford in the same conversation as Sauce.  The Jets tried to manufacture a 1,000 yard season for Hall (they failed) and yet general consensus is Hall is a top 5 RB in the league.  Cook coasted to 1,100 yards that same season.

 

Am I the crazy one?  Are these average talents and I’m just wearing homer goggles?  Because I swear what I see on Sunday out of Shakir & Benford in particular is insanely high quality play.

General consensus? Granted I don't listen to talking heads much but I've never even heard him mentioned in such conversation.

[MJS]

Is Hall viewed as a top 5 RB?

[Cray51]

Cook and Hall are a wash

I personally would take Wilson as a full on boundary guy over Shakir.  I just think he is a touch more dynamic as a route runner.

i like Williams a bit more than Oliver

Benford is better than Gardner - I consider Sauce the most overrated player in the league.

 

the two groups are relatively comparable

[ProcessImproverMan]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

Is Hall viewed as a top 5 RB?

Went number one overall in my fantasy league if that means anything.....I took Allen first round so I'm winning 

[Chugga]

11 minutes ago, MJS said:

Is Hall viewed as a top 5 RB?

Going into this season Fox had him rated 5th and NFL had him 3rd.  In those same websites Cook on fox was unlisted and outside of the top 10 and he was 12th on NFL.

 

PFF had Hall 7th.  Cook was 24th

CBS had Hall 6th.  Cook unrated outside top 20

ESPN had Hall 2nd.  Cook honorable mention outside of top 10

Edited November 1 by Chugga

[BillsFan130]

11 minutes ago, MJS said:

Is Hall viewed as a top 5 RB?

Going into the season I probably had him around 5-7.

 

Definitely not anymore though haha

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, Chugga said:

Going into this season Fox had him rated 5th and NFL had him 3rd.  In those same websites Cook on fox was unlisted and outside of the top 10 and he was 12th on NFL.

 

PFF had Hall 7th.  Cook was 24th

CBS had Hall 6th.  Cook unrated outside top 20

Crazy. I just think everyone wanted the Jets to be something they are not.

[Chugga]

Just now, MJS said:

Crazy. I just think everyone wanted the Jets to be something they are not.

It’s insane though.  Because they want the players to be something they aren’t either.  Sauce has not been good this year but he’s already earned the same ridiculously long leash that Ramsey is still living off of.

[Reks Ryan]

15 minutes ago, ProcessImproverMan said:

Went number one overall in my fantasy league if that means anything.....I took Allen first round so I'm winning 

Hall and Wilson both went top 5 in my fantasy draft.  I thought it was insane that 2 Jets went that high.  If you play for a bad offense, TDs and fantasy scoring will be down.

 

It does speak to the perception of talent.  I thing if there was an actual league-wide redraft today, all 4 of NYJ the OP lists, would be drafted ahead of any current Bills player, not named Josh Allen.

[HappyDays]

26 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Cook and Hall are a wash

 

Nah Cook is much better. Hall is a pure straight liner with mediocre vision.

[Einstein]

Wilson is a top 5 WR in the NFL.

 

He would instantly be our #1.

[JGMcD2]

39 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Nah Cook is much better. Hall is a pure straight liner with mediocre vision.

Who was the guy on here that kept crying about us not trading up for Hall and settling for Cook instead? 
 

[Big Turk]

I love Shakir more than most but Wilson is a bonafide number 1 on most teams. Tremendous player without a QB for much of his career 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

After seeing the grab Wilson made tonight? Who is this Shakir dude?

[GoBills808]

Lol

[Mikie2times]

I would take Cook over Hall but past that the 3 Jets players rightfully get more credit. 

[folz]

I remember being bugged by everyone lauding the Jets for their 2022 draft. And I was like, of course they had a good draft, they had 4 picks in the top 36 picks (two in the top 10 of the first round). That's not necessarily great drafting, that's just having a lot of good picks. So, we are not quite to the year 3 mark (2-1/2 years currently) when you can truly start evaluating draft classes. But here's a comparison anyhow:

 

#4 overall Sauce Gardner CB 

#10 Garrett Wilson WR

#26 Jermaine Johnson LB (Did not start rookie year, played well in year two, on IR this year with an achilles)

#36 Breece Hall RB

#101 Jeremy Ruckert TE (mid-way through year three has 11 starts with 36 recs for 205 yards, no TDs)

#111 Max Mitchell T (12 starts in 42 games, Jets backup right tackle)

#117 Michael Clemons DT (9 starts in 42 games. Rotational DT).

UDFA: Tony Adams S (7 games played, 7 starts), Irvin Charles WR (8 games played, 0 starts)

 

#23 Kaiir Elam CB (only 8 games started for our #1 pick)

#63 James Cook RB

#89 Terrell Bernard LB

#148 Khalil Shakir WR

#180 Matt Araiza P (we all know what happened here)

#185 Christian Benford CB

#209 Luke Tenuta (only played in 3 games for the Bills---no longer with the team)

#231 Baylon Spector (3 starts, backup LB)

UDFA: Alec Anderson OL (8 games played, 2 starts); Ja'Marcus Ingram CB (13 games played, 0 starts)

 

Jets average draft position in 2022 = 58th pick

Bills average draft position in 2022 = 141st pick

 

So, for the starters (4 for each team):

RB: Hall vs. Cook (imo, even, with a slight edge to Cook with how he is playing right now and the team around him. Overall, Hall has 159 yards and 1 TD more than Cook over three years. Cook picked 27 spots lower than Hall)

 

WR: Wilson vs. Shakir (Wilson gets the edge here---but not by as much as would have been expected, considering that Khalil was picked 138 spots lower than Garrett. Of course, Khalil has had the better QB play too. Can you imagine Wilson with Josh throwing him the ball?)

 

LB: Johnson vs. Bernard (Bernard is better, both have had some injury issues. Terrell has 109 more tackles and 5 more turnovers in only 5 more starts---Bernard was picked 53 spots lower than Johnson. Johnson was picked that high because he was considered a great edge player/pass rusher. He does have 10 sacks...but Terrell isn't far behind with 6.5 sacks.)

 

CB: Gardner vs. Benford (I'll give a small edge to Sauce because teams will shy away from him and he's more athletically gifted. But again, it's a lot closer than expected, considering Benford was selected 181 picks after Sauce).

 

So, imo, the Bills came away with just as good of a draft despite the Jets picking way above us. Their last pick (their 7th pick) was selected in the top third of the fourth round. We only had 3 picks total in the first four rounds. Five of our picks were selected well after the Jets draft was already done. The Jets had three first round picks, two in the top 10, and 4 picks in the top 36! (The Bills only had 1 pick in the top 62.)

 

Now, Wilson is definitely a guy and Sauce is very good. But I think I still might take our draft (by a nose), and that's despite having blown our first pick and the whole Matt Araiza situation. Of course, I'm biased because I like OUR players...but even if you take the Jets draft over ours, it's not by much, and it's despite their picks being so much higher than ours. Pretty darn good work by Beane (outside of the Elam pick) based on where we were selecting.

 

 

 

Edited November 1 by folz

[dma0034]

Wow @folz that's a good summary. I think Benford is better than Sauce but Sauce gets away with some holding because of the name. Garrett Wilson is much much better than Shakir. I love Shakir but Wilson is a top 7 WR. Right now I think it's Justin Jefferson, AJ Brown, Chase, St. Brown, Lamb are definitely better and then you get into Tyreek Hill or Wilson. He's that good.