Coleman is doing it all.

[PrimeTime101]

14 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Separation comes down to four things:

 

1. Release - this it the most improvable with coaching.

2. Route running - this is improvable with repetition but there is also an element of natural talent to it too. Some guys just instinctively have the nuance. 

3. Explosiveness - improvable with the right strength and conditioning training. 

4. Longer speed - the hardest bit to improve. 

 

I think Keon can get better as a separator I just don't think that will ever be his best asset. You don't have to be a separator to be a good NFL receiver. But I think you do to be a great one and I'd add to that every great offense needs someone who can separate vertically. That doesn't have to be Keon. It is about balancing the ticket to borrow some political language with what you have playing opposite him at the other outside receiver spot. That has to be a route running technician or a vertical speed guy IMO. What the Bills do at that spot next year: retain Coop? Draft anothet guy? Sign a FA? will be instructive.

 

 

He definitely does have the bolded. It was another thing I remarked on when I evaluated him in the spring. When FSU used him in the slot and got him free releases and he could dictate the territory he wanted to occupy in a route he was dominant. When he was outside against physical corners who would challenge him off the line he had a tendency to let them pick their spot first and then play off the contact exactly as you describe. 

5. Your eyes (Never look in the direction you are running your routs, move the eyes around often)

6. Knowing your defender (playing divisional teams over and over again, knowing the CB's you play against (Seeing it all at the nfl level))

7. Solid head movement (Look and move your head one way when running the other way) **

 

** Cover 1 discussed this one in dept in one of their video's recently and 100% agree.

 

I could list a few more but you guys get the picture.  I guess my point is, there is way more into Separation then the 4 aspects you mentioned.  You can be the best explosive route runner in the league but if your not doing at least 2-3 other things that Gunner and I mentioned? You are toast. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

5. Your eyes (Never look in the direction you are running your routs, move the eyes around often)

6. Knowing your defender (playing divisional teams over and over again, knowing the CB's you play against (Seeing it all at the nfl level))

7. Solid head movement (Look and move your head one way when running the other way) **

 

** Cover 1 discussed this one in dept in one of their video's recently and 100% agree.

 

I could list a few more but you guys get the picture.  I guess my point is, there is way more into Separation then the 4 aspects you mentioned.  You can be the best explosive route runner in the league but if your not doing at least 2-3 other things that Gunner and I mentioned? You are toast. 

 

So I'd consider those some of the nuances within release and route running rather than separate factors in themselves, but I suppose others might see that differently. I don't disagree at all they are important. 

[Royale with Cheese]

14 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Separation comes down to four things:

 

1. Release - this it the most improvable with coaching.

2. Route running - this is improvable with repetition but there is also an element of natural talent to it too. Some guys just instinctively have the nuance. 

3. Explosiveness - improvable with the right strength and conditioning training. 

4. Longer speed - the hardest bit to improve. 

I would also add someone that’s subtle shifty that doesn’t take a dramatic cut to get separation.  The dramatic cut guy, does get open for that split second but can be closed on quickly too.

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I'd consider those some of the nuances within release and route running rather than separate factors in themselves, but I suppose others might see that differently. I don't disagree at all they are important. 

I don't know this stuff from video's either BTW.  Spending 100's of hours talking and hanging out with a family member that used to coach at the College level, I remember him mentioning many of these things over and over again.  The funny thing is, some day hit the field or the track. run 10 yards down field then make a cut to the right as hard and fast as you can and look with eyes and head the other way just at the time you make the break. Its not easy as people think it is lol. 

 

The other thing I used to see back in the day is these HS kids being absolute Track Stars coming out of HS and all that speed and agility meant nothing at the next level because they were not doing any of the other things.  I would have to say out of any positions in football today.. its the nuances of CB and WR play that I know and enjoy talking about the most  Puts a smile on my face and it makes my heart ache for those gone that I did these things with at the same time. 

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

I would also add someone that’s subtle shifty that doesn’t take a dramatic cut to get separation.  The dramatic cut guy, does get open for that split second but can be closed on quickly too.

yes thats the point I was just bringing up. You can be so good at even doing that, but if you have trash head movement and lack quickness out of those breaks.. again you are toast. 

[Mat68]

He will never run past coverage.  With his style he wont really need 2.  Back shoulder balls and over the shoulder catches can mitigate that.  His physicality will create separation and aid his ability to win down the field outside.  His explosiveness is real.  His instincts as a ball carrier are real.  Those last two things are what people skipped over in his evaluation imo.  That makes him more than just a back shoulder 50/50 guy.  Add all that up he has ability to win at every level of the field.  By seasons end he will be the #1.  He is well on his way.   

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I don't know this stuff from video's either BTW.  Spending 100's of hours talking and hanging out with a family member that used to coach at the College level, I remember him mentioning many of these things over and over again.  The funny thing is, some day hit the field or the track. run 10 yards down field then make a cut to the right as hard and fast as you can and look with eyes and head the other way just at the time you make the break. Its not easy as people think it is lol. 

 

The other thing I used to see back in the day is these HS kids being absolute Track Stars coming out of HS and all that speed and agility meant nothing at the next level because they were not doing any of the other things.  I would have to say out of any positions in football today.. its the nuances of CB and WR play that I know and enjoy talking about the most  Puts a smile on my face and it makes my heart ache for those gone that I did these things with at the same time. 

 

 

Yep. I got accused in the run up to the draft of using separation as a proxy for speed not just when talking about Keon but some of the other receiver prospects too. But I wasn't. They are different things. Is speed a factor in getting separation? Sure. But as you say there are plenty of example of track stars who couldn't separate at the NFL level because their release was poor or they couldn't run routes or they didn't have the nuances of the position. 

[HappyDays]

I think my favorite play is the one 37 seconds in when two DBs get their hands on him (including Devon Witherspoon, no slouch) and he just pushes through the contact like a turnstile to get wide open downfield. That's the kind of play I envisioned when I advocated for him to be our pick.

 

For good measure here he is getting around press coverage stacking Woolen and forcing a DPI to prevent a TD:

 

Down for down this was the most physically dominating performance I've seen from a Bills WR since I don't know when.

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I think my favorite play is the one 37 seconds in when two DBs get their hands on him (including Devon Witherspoon, no slouch) and he just pushes through the contact like a turnstile to get wide open downfield. That's the kind of play I envisioned when I advocated for him to be our pick.

 

For good measure here he is getting around press coverage stacking Woolen and forcing a DPI to prevent a TD:

 

Down for down this was the most physically dominating performance I've seen from a Bills WR since I don't know when.

Have to wonder if Allen left that seam high and inside to save the kid's knees from the corner coming in from behind

 

Good stuff all round

[HappyDays]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Have to wonder if Allen left that seam high and inside to save the kid's knees from the corner coming in from behind

 

I'm sure. Allen is elite at leading his WRs away from hospital hits. Underrated trait of his.

[transplantbillsfan]

Go listen to "The Bruce Exclusive" podcast by Bruce Nolan called "Building a Better Dawg."

 

It's all about Keon and presents a TON of advanced metrics.

 

It boils down to this: Coleman has always excelled at YAC and contested catches and Joe Brady is doing a great job catering to Keon's strengths.

 

Listen to the podcast.  A lot of the metrics are super impressive, especially the amount of YAC over Expected he gets compared to other NFL WRs.

[Coastie]

On 10/29/2024 at 5:06 PM, FireChans said:

No I was dead wrong. I can admit it. I called him Devin Funchess 2.0 and was miserable during the draft.

 

He's clearly much more than that. The best part about hating a Bills move, is if I'm wrong and he plays great, it's still a win!

I've never minded some folks' worried or disappointed takes, like someone said before it is about opinions. I do get annoyed when people refuse to do what you do and that is accept being wrong and be happy they you wrong in the direction that benefits our Bills. I've had plenty of the "I am so glad to have been wrong about <insert name here>" opinions.

[PrimeTime101]

16 hours ago, Coastie said:

I've never minded some folks' worried or disappointed takes, like someone said before it is about opinions. I do get annoyed when people refuse to do what you do and that is accept being wrong and be happy they you wrong in the direction that benefits our Bills. I've had plenty of the "I am so glad to have been wrong about <insert name here>" opinions.

meh everyone has opinions on players, half the time we right, half the time we wrong. it is what it is lol.  I don't ask anyone ever to eat crow. Just a good raven dinner coming up would be nice

[White Linen]

On 10/29/2024 at 3:44 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm not as high on Riq Woolen as others tbh. I think Witherspoon is the best corner on that team but Woolen isn't a mug by any means and Keon definitely won that matchup conclusively on Sunday. He is ahead of where I'd have had him at this stage. I'd have put him between 650 and 750 yards for the year (although with 7 or 8 touchdowns) and he is on pace for about 840. So there is lots there to like but I still need to see him separate better and more consistently - especially downfield - before I am willing to raise his ceiling to a true #1.

 

This post is actually quite ridiculous.