Coleman is doing it all.

[HardyBoy]

On 10/29/2024 at 11:17 AM, PoundingDog said:

The jump ball skill was always there; in fact many at the training camp everyone saw it daily. It is just a matter of time that Josh and Keon are developing more trust, ball location, right ball height etc. to make it more into what Josh said in camp: "more of 73-30 or 80-20 ball" because ... remember the ball is not a random bounce of the ring or backboard like in basketball, we have a actually guy throwing the ball up there, especially in short yardage area where the defender has less time to react for proper positioning to defend whereas the receiver and QB may have pre-set idea where the jump point will be. I will add that the Bills never had a guy like that, not even Moulds.

 

What is surprising to me is his strength in running thru defenders. The video below does not show the Coleman side - basically he fought thru the defender on his left, causing him to stumble and fall, making himself wide open. And this is not the first time this season. 

 

 

https://youtu.be/JUsvPecTIis?si=jG6T3aLrwHlZUqdi&t=9

 

Against smaller defender, this might be his calling card

 

 

I see some trends developing for his separation traits. Remember it's only 8 games in his career. 

 

On the negative side, I see his use of his right hand is much much better than his left hand for controlling the ball. When he's on the left side of the offense, he generally twist his body clock-wise to catch the ball with both hands whereas in that TD against Seahawks, his natural extension of the right arm and hand can bring the ball in. These details won't go un-noticed by defensive coordinators and CBs. People may defend him a little differently now that he's being noticed in the league.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very very interesting observation. Would you say perhaps he's more fluid on the right side than on the left side? Like could it be more of a foot thing than a hands thing?

 

I'm thinking in basketball you use your left foot to jump for a right handed layup...I've got pretty good hands catching, but I've noticed my right hand is better at catching one handed than my left...always thought it was because catching with a glove you have that on your right hand as a lefty and you practice more that way.

 

I'm also a weird case potentially (in terms of catching), because write, play soccer, do layups in basketball, dribble a basketball, and play tennis all lefty, but I shoot a basketball, golf, play lacrosse, and swing a baseball bat all right...my brother is the exact opposite.

 

Only reason I'm mentioning myself is I'm trying to think through the movements to go up for a catch...I don't see the fact I'm better at catching with my right hand being a reason I would jump differently, but I could see it being a footwork thing potentially and being more comfortable going off one foot than another.

 

Really cool observation though, and I guess I'd love for you to look at his footwork and see if maybe that is what is causing what you're seeing potentially

[machine gun kelly]

Funny in just another thread it was a negative Nelly thread on Coleman with no separation, but wasn’t accurate.  He’s developing better than expected.  I like him as a #2.  Shakir is a natural slot guy, amd Cooper in time with synergy with Josh and knowing each persons tendencies will end up our #1.  Add a developing top flight TE in Kinkaid will give us with Cook, Ray, and Ty as our running game can finally give Allen the weapons he needs.

[HardyBoy]

@BADOLBILZ @GunnerBill

 

Loving the insights!

 

Badol, you mentioned that Davis clapping at the ball was because of eye hand coordination limitations (makes sense).

 

Gunner, you mentioned you're worried that Coleman isn't a good separator.

 

Question for both of you...is separation a similar skill to having the eye hand coordination that allows for quick, late hands?

 

Obviously clapping at the ball could theoretically be a technique thing as well, but if it is a physical limitation you're obviously capped even with the best technique, as mentioned by one or both of you.

 

Does separation have a limiting physical factor, and is that a concern for Coleman in your eyes? He seems to have quick feet and for sure really solid body control to be able to take small steps with suddenness...is it a hip or ankle fluidity thing or something like that maybe?

 

Why isn't Coleman a good separator and will improving his technique allow him to get better, or is there a limiting physical trait that could potentially prevent him from ever passing a ceiling that will keep him becoming a true #1 receiver?

[bills742]

 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

4 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

Just read this:

"Through eight games, Coleman already has virtually equaled the run-after-catch yards Gabe Davis had for the Bills all last season. Coleman has 192 RAC yards, according to NFL Next Gen Stats. Davis had 194 in 17 games in 2023."

Wow how did he do that when he's so slow!

 

🤣 Jokes aside, while he's no sprinter I'd say his issue is that he's fast not quick. He doesn't have the burst off the line that the Xaviers have naturally.

 

But when he's full speed, or had found a soft spot in the zone he's smooth enough that he's been able to turn upfield. Watch that TD vs the Texans, not only did he outrace his way in he out muscled it

Edited 15 hours ago by WhitewalkerInPhilly

[Not at the table Karlos]

6 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

That's backwards. Brown is coming back. They also have Hopkins now, too.

I didn’t see the news that came down in last couple days that Brown might be back in January. All the reports earlier were done for the season. 

[PoundingDog]

3 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

Really cool observation though, and I guess I'd love for you to look at his footwork and see if maybe that is what is causing what you're seeing potentially

Thanks for kind words. But I'm not the right person (nor do I have the time) to do that kind of film analysis. I mentioned on this board that I have a good friend who works for sports agency for a living, having dealt with a lot of NFL players. I will never mention any names or agencies in public. But I learned quite a bit from him. Once drafted, teams have a book on the player and they create a growth plan. The player's agency typically has connections with training entities specializing in different areas to recommend to or straight-up hook up for the player in off-season. There are a lot of details, very minute details for the player to improve year over year. I'm just aware of some of the details and from time to time, apply to my Bills players. I don't really watch that many NFL games outside my Bills.

 

Khalil Shakir, for example, is someone I noticed who seems to catching the ball positioned best at stomach or lower. And he lets the ball go to the body, cradled with security all in one motion for his next shake and bake move without any wasted motion. I vividly remember one of his very first catches is that Steelers game in his rookie year (that Davis 98 yard TD game) where he jumped up catching the ball between a couple of defenders. But that is not his strength, in fact a few of his would-be catches in his career got knocked off by defenders because they were kind of chest or shoulder level balls. And you can see clearly now that Josh and the Bills must have worked on that and most of passes to him are at his stomach (or lower) level. And that is really perfect for your slot guy who roams in the middle of the field with traffic around him.  

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

@BADOLBILZ @GunnerBill

 

Loving the insights!

 

Badol, you mentioned that Davis clapping at the ball was because of eye hand coordination limitations (makes sense).

 

Gunner, you mentioned you're worried that Coleman isn't a good separator.

 

Question for both of you...is separation a similar skill to having the eye hand coordination that allows for quick, late hands?

 

Obviously clapping at the ball could theoretically be a technique thing as well, but if it is a physical limitation you're obviously capped even with the best technique, as mentioned by one or both of you.

 

Does separation have a limiting physical factor, and is that a concern for Coleman in your eyes? He seems to have quick feet and for sure really solid body control to be able to take small steps with suddenness...is it a hip or ankle fluidity thing or something like that maybe?

 

Why isn't Coleman a good separator and will improving his technique allow him to get better, or is there a limiting physical trait that could potentially prevent him from ever passing a ceiling that will keep him becoming a true #1 receiver?

 

 

I think Coleman can improve as a separator.   He's probably not as experienced as a lot of WR coming into the league who have been focused on playing football or 7 on 7 football all year round because he's only been a full time football player since 2022.    Some of the comps I've seen(Mike Williams and Tee Higgins) of guys who really have to make a living on contested catches are players I think Coleman is more athletic than.   I also think Coleman might have a tendency to play to contact from years of playing in close quarters on the basketball court,  which is something he should try to get away from.      

Edited 11 hours ago by BADOLBILZ

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

@BADOLBILZ @GunnerBill

 

Loving the insights!

 

Badol, you mentioned that Davis clapping at the ball was because of eye hand coordination limitations (makes sense).

 

Gunner, you mentioned you're worried that Coleman isn't a good separator.

 

Question for both of you...is separation a similar skill to having the eye hand coordination that allows for quick, late hands?

 

Obviously clapping at the ball could theoretically be a technique thing as well, but if it is a physical limitation you're obviously capped even with the best technique, as mentioned by one or both of you.

 

Does separation have a limiting physical factor, and is that a concern for Coleman in your eyes? He seems to have quick feet and for sure really solid body control to be able to take small steps with suddenness...is it a hip or ankle fluidity thing or something like that maybe?

 

Why isn't Coleman a good separator and will improving his technique allow him to get better, or is there a limiting physical trait that could potentially prevent him from ever passing a ceiling that will keep him becoming a true #1 receiver?

 

Separation comes down to four things:

 

1. Release - this it the most improvable with coaching.

2. Route running - this is improvable with repetition but there is also an element of natural talent to it too. Some guys just instinctively have the nuance. 

3. Explosiveness - improvable with the right strength and conditioning training. 

4. Longer speed - the hardest bit to improve. 

 

I think Keon can get better as a separator I just don't think that will ever be his best asset. You don't have to be a separator to be a good NFL receiver. But I think you do to be a great one and I'd add to that every great offense needs someone who can separate vertically. That doesn't have to be Keon. It is about balancing the ticket to borrow some political language with what you have playing opposite him at the other outside receiver spot. That has to be a route running technician or a vertical speed guy IMO. What the Bills do at that spot next year: retain Coop? Draft anothet guy? Sign a FA? will be instructive.

 

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think Coleman can improve as a separator.   He's probably not as experienced as a lot of WR coming into the league who have been focused on playing football or 7 on 7 football all year round because he's only been a full time football player since 2022.    Some of the comps I've seen(Mike Williams and Tee Higgins) of guys who really have to make a living on contested catches are players I think Coleman is more athletic than.   I also think Coleman might have a tendency to play to contact from years of playing in close quarters on the basketball court,  which is something he should try to get away from.      

 

He definitely does have the bolded. It was another thing I remarked on when I evaluated him in the spring. When FSU used him in the slot and got him free releases and he could dictate the territory he wanted to occupy in a route he was dominant. When he was outside against physical corners who would challenge him off the line he had a tendency to let them pick their spot first and then play off the contact exactly as you describe. 

[NewEra]

Not that anyone asked me, nor cares, but I’d like to add that I think a WRs ability to utilize leverage and feel (of the defender) is also a component to separation ability, especially for those lacking in the longer speed dept

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Not that anyone asked me, nor cares, but I’d like to add that I think a WRs ability to utilize leverage and feel (of the defender) is also a component to separation ability, especially for those lacking in the longer speed dept

 

You can definitely "win" with leverage, not sure I'd call it separation though that may be a semantic point.

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You can definitely "win" with leverage, not sure I'd call it separation though that may be a semantic point.

🤷🏻‍♂️ I think a WR is capable of creating distance between him and his defender by the use of leverage.  Is creating distance not the same thing as separation?  
 

I agree that a WR can “win” with leverage as well, but that’s not exactly creating distance.  I believe that winning with leverage can actually create distance  

[ghostwriter]

4 hours ago, bills742 said:

 

I guess if he can’t get open, he can always pancake DBs into the ground!

[HardyBoy]

34 minutes ago, NewEra said:

🤷🏻‍♂️ I think a WR is capable of creating distance between him and his defender by the use of leverage.  Is creating distance not the same thing as separation?  
 

I agree that a WR can “win” with leverage as well, but that’s not exactly creating distance.  I believe that winning with leverage can actually create distance  

 

Are you talking about something like keeping space between the numbers and out of bounds on a go route so he can run to space horizontally a bit away from the defender?

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

 

Are you talking about something like keeping space between the numbers and out of bounds on a go route so he can run to space horizontally a bit away from the defender?

No, I’m talking about physically feeling the defender, and using their momentum and positioning to creating distance between himself and the defender.  One can do this with their hands, arms and even footwork.  

[HardyBoy]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Separation comes down to four things:

 

1. Release - this it the most improvable with coaching.

2. Route running - this is improvable with repetition but there is also an element of natural talent to it too. Some guys just instinctively have the nuance. 

3. Explosiveness - improvable with the right strength and conditioning training. 

4. Longer speed - the hardest bit to improve. 

 

I think Keon can get better as a separator I just don't think that will ever be his best asset. You don't have to be a separator to be a good NFL receiver. But I think you do to be a great one and I'd add to that every great offense needs someone who can separate vertically. That doesn't have to be Keon. It is about balancing the ticket to borrow some political language with what you have playing opposite him at the other outside receiver spot. That has to be a route running technician or a vertical speed guy IMO. What the Bills do at that spot next year: retain Coop? Draft anothet guy? Sign a FA? will be instructive.

 

 

He definitely does have the bolded. It was another thing I remarked on when I evaluated him in the spring. When FSU used him in the slot and got him free releases and he could dictate the territory he wanted to occupy in a route he was dominant. When he was outside against physical corners who would challenge him off the line he had a tendency to let them pick their spot first and then play off the contact exactly as you describe. 

 

So with the Josh Allen draft, I literally hadn't watched any highlights or film on the quarterbacks other than barely watching any college football at all.

 

The first I had seen highlights of Josh Allen was watching highlights after he got drafted. My very initial thought was hearing a bunch of people being mad because he couldn't throw with anticipation and especially that he couldn't throw with touch and I was like crap, bad pick...then about 15 minutes later I was watching his throws from the senior bowl and watched him throw with touch, literally the very thing people claimed he was incapable of doing...I was sold immediately after seeing that and realizing he had learned that in a week of top level coaching.

 

Are there things that are keeping Coleman back that people are saying he can't do, but you're actually starting to see he actually has the capacity to do that, it's just really rough?

 

There's a huge difference between incapable of doing something and being capable just being bad at it... especially when you could explain the reason for the being bad being limited reps or bad coaching or whatever. 

 

The top end speed is probably more important for Josh Allen than other qbs also right? Like he doesn't typically throw deep balls until he sees they're open because of his arm strength or am I crazy? Feels like Tua often does a three step drop and chucks it deep, but Allen usually is looking deep and then throwing deep.

 

Has that changed some this year, with more Y/N reads and chucking it up to Coleman as soon as he sees he'll have a favorable look? I hadn't heard the term yes no read until this year I don't think, which makes me think that means the bills haven't really been doing them until this year? I know there were a lot of half field reads, but he was still having to chose a route on that half the field...is it because there are fewer option routes so he can make a choice quicker before having to wait for a receiver to hit a decision landmark?

[JerseyBills]

The 180 he has made is incredible,  17 throwing him multiple balls in the RZ shows that they're very comfortable and in sync. 

 

Dude is a stud, has WR1 potential.  This O w him, Coop, Shakir aka the East coast Cooper Kupp, Kincaid/Knox, Jimbo/Davis, OL, is DANGEROUS as they come!!

 

GO BILLS

[starrymessenger]

If by #1 we mean Allen's go to guy I wouldn't be completely surprised if that was in Keon's future. For a number of years Julian Edelman, a slot receiver, was Brady's go to guy and saw a ton of balls. Before Edelman it was Wes Welker, another slot. If by #1 we mean the outside receiver to the weak side of the line opposite an eligible tight end or either receiver at the end of the line in multiple receiver sets (say 2x2 or 3x1) that's a different assertion. 
Keon is not a dedicated #1 outside X receiver imo, meaning he is not going to take the significant majority of his snaps outside. Actually not many of today's best receivers do eg Davante Adams. Neither is Keon one of those "slot only" guys obviously. He is going to wind up lining up both outside and inside on or off the line depending upon the purpose underlying the play call. The exact percentage breakdown has yet to be determined and will be influenced by a number of factors some of which are unknown and  unknowable at this time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it wound up a roughly 50/50 proposition. 
For those who think the slot belongs to Shakir, his snaps too will be divided in some proportion. He can play some on the boundary.There are two types of slot receiver generally. Some are fast and quick, some are big and strong. We know what group Keon falls in. And there is nothing preventing the Bills from using two slots, like the championship Cardinals often did. Boldin lined up inside and in so doing he benefitted from having more room to operate in the middle of the field. The payoff, in part, was that he managed to be one of the games best YAC receivers, even though he was slow. Coleman reminded me of Boldin a lot when he took off for big yardage after the catch.

Edited 7 hours ago by starrymessenger