Sam Darnold and other QB resurrections

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

See, I don’t know if Baker is that guy who can win a championship. They could have taken a commanding lead MNF and he threw a terrible end zone INT that completely swung the game. He is like the best version of Fitz - great heart, can be as good as almost any top Qb in spurts, but lacks the physical skills and thus has some bad turnovers. 
 

in a vacuum, pre massage Watson was a much better qb than Baker. Now the Browns trading for Watson with all that baggage? Awful, awful move. 

If Trent Dilfer, Nick Foles, and Brad Johnson can win a SB then I think Baker is capable. I feel like people also need to put a bit more respeck on Baker’s arm. He can make all the NFL throws and has excellent placement. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Flutie was never a bust.  He chose to play in the CFL because he realized he'd never get a chance in the NFL because he was considered too small.  His situation was much like Warren Moon who also chose the CFL because he didn't want to play any position but QB and knew he wouldn't get that chance.  Both had great careers in the CFL before coming into the NFL and proving themselves.

 

 

Absolutely true.   Under the control of the Bills' Evil Genius Russ Brandon, the Bills offensive coaching staff was sketchy at best when they drafted Allen.  The Bills "QB coach" in 2018 was a guy who hadn't actually coached QBs in 20 years, and only did that for a year on the college level.  Brandon was fired in May, 2018, and Beane was given full GM powers.  After the 2018 season, all of the offensive coaches except Daboll were fired and Ken Dorsey was hired as Allen's QB coach.    The rest, as they say, is history but it could have been very different for Allen, too.  

 

Smith, Baker and Darnold all were drafted by substandard, perhaps even dysfunctional, organizations.  Hell, the Jests under Woody Johnson, can't even put together a good team with one of the greatest QBs playing for them.   What chance did Smith and Darnold really have with them?   Once a high round QB fails for his original team, he's generally relegated to backup status.  Smith, Baker, and Darnold all spent time as backups under great coaches with excellent assistants (Carroll, McVay and Shanihan) and emerged as better QBs for it.  Once again, coaching matters.

 

 

 

And the bolded part is why I think NFL teams need to re-evaluate the way they do things. It’s absolutely insane to me that a guy who is as young & physically gifted as Trey Lance is fighting for a spot in the NFL while trash journeyman like Josh Johnson seem to always get picked up. Johnson is 1-8 all time, sub 60% completion, 13/16 TD/INT ratio, and is 38 years old! And you would think with stats like that he would be able to run, but he can’t do that either! 😆 You’re telling me teams value THAT over a  dual threat who’s only 24, a .500 record as a starter, and more TDs than picks? It really makes no sense to me how teams will again & again trot out a proven loser instead of taking a chance on the unknown. 

Edited October 25 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

55 minutes ago, MJS said:

Maybe Ty Detmer? He was such a dynamic player in college but came into the league and bounced around between a few teams, and then he was gone. He played well enough in 1996 to get the Eagles to the playoffs when their starter went down.

 

And he didn't get drafted until the 9th round! Crazy for a Heisman Trophy winner. He threw for over 5,000 yards and 41 TDs in 1990 in 12 games! He had an average of 432 yards per game that year. Crazy. I think the NFL just didn't want to give him much of a shot. But he was smaller. Only 6'0" and 190 pounds.

Thankfully, guys like Brees, Russell Wilson, and even Doug Flutie to an extent helped pave the way for smaller QBs. I couldn’t imagine Kyler Murray going #1 overall pre-2000. Most likely he would’ve ended up playing baseball. 

[Mango]

Alex Smith has to be the most obvious/drastic QB to ever resurrect their career. At least in the 21st century.

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I was going to post this in the game thread, but it thought it was an interesting topic to have its own. I know the Vikings lost, but I can’t get over how much Sam Darnold has improved. Having the best WR in the game obviously helps, but he’s looked quick & decisive all season. I can now see why he was a such a high pick. I’m always fascinated by previous busts who turn it around especially much later into their career ala Rich Gannon. Was it going to a better system? More years of experience? A drastic change of approach? I remember when Bills’ great 36 y.o Todd Collins went super saiyan out of nowhere on a 3 game win streak for the Redskins where he threw for 900 yards.. Geno Smith, Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield are all 3 pretty good examples of that and hilariously they are all better than their original team’s current starting QB. There have been countless examples over the years. Makes you wonder if teams should spend more time on development. The Jets and Browns would both be AFC contenders w/ those players. 

 

I can't find it now, but in one interview Beane talked about research they did before drafting a QB in 2018, about how QBs are handled and developed in the league.

 

He said one of their conclusions was that far more QB with potential are ruined than are developed in the league, and as I recall he went into some detail about the reasons (I don't remember them all, but it included changes in OC or offensive system especially multiple changes in the first 3 years and so forth)

 

It interested me at the time because the Bills did a number of things that Beane alluded to as poor developoment (poor WR corps and OL Josh's first year, lack of run game to support the passing game, lack of a veteran the rookie could sit behind to learn).  But they also did a number of things right (keep the same OC and offensive system, support the QB and not have a QB controversy, etc).

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

Drew Brees in New Orleans will TOP ALL These list !

Brees was fantastic in his fourth year in San Diego - comeback player of the year and fifth in offensive player of the year voting (and a 104.8 qb rating). Point is, he was already good when he got to NO.

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I agree with this. I don’t trust him in the slightest. Still makes way too many mistakes. 
 

also, fails on the handsome qb rating as well. Some can get by (Andrew Luck) but you need a cool last name or another trait. 

Darnold's grandfather was quite literally the Marlboro Man and named Dick Hammer!  

[eball]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

Drew Brees in New Orleans will TOP ALL These list !

 

Not even close.  Brees was a rising star in SD and then had the injury.

 

[TBBills Fan]

3 hours ago, dpberr said:

Others to consider:

 

Tommy Maddox in Pittsburgh

Jim Harbaugh in Indianapolis

Kerry Collins in Tennessee

Rich Gannon 

Flutie

Trent dilfer

Kerry Collins

Kurt warner

 

 

Thing is when you are in the same environment for years and years some people get better at their job. 

 

NFL QBs tend to do this 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Pretty lucky that the same didn't happen with Allen.  I really think the key is the correct development approach.   Even Mahomes didn't play much his first year.  Was Daboll here Allens 1st year or was it Greg Roman?

 

Daboll.

[boater]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Flutie in Buffalo....

Now, you have gone and done it.

 

Here we go....

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

4 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Flutie was never a bust.  He chose to play in the CFL because he realized he'd never get a chance in the NFL because he was considered too small.  His situation was much like Warren Moon who also chose the CFL because he didn't want to play any position but QB and knew he wouldn't get that chance.  Both had great careers in the CFL before coming into the NFL and proving themselves.

 

 

Absolutely true.   Under the control of the Bills' Evil Genius Russ Brandon, the Bills offensive coaching staff was sketchy at best when they drafted Allen.  The Bills "QB coach" in 2018 was a guy who hadn't actually coached QBs in 20 years, and only did that for a year on the college level.  Brandon was fired in May, 2018, and Beane was given full GM powers.  After the 2018 season, all of the offensive coaches except Daboll were fired and Ken Dorsey was hired as Allen's QB coach.    The rest, as they say, is history but it could have been very different for Allen, too.  

 

Smith, Baker and Darnold all were drafted by substandard, perhaps even dysfunctional, organizations.  Hell, the Jests under Woody Johnson, can't even put together a good team with one of the greatest QBs playing for them.   What chance did Smith and Darnold really have with them?   Once a high round QB fails for his original team, he's generally relegated to backup status.  Smith, Baker, and Darnold all spent time as backups under great coaches with excellent assistants (Carroll, McVay and Shanihan) and emerged as better QBs for it.  Once again, coaching matters.

 

 

 

 

I'd argue they get one more shot with a 2nd team before getting labeled lifetime backup.

[Saxum]

6 hours ago, djp14150 said:

 

2. coaching stability. I think mayfield had a different OC each year in Cleveland and it wasn’t because these OCS got HC jobs.

 

 

Alex Van Pelt was OC in Cleveland and due to how he was playing his ability to change plays was taken away and Alex Van Pelt concentrated on rebuilding him with his footwork and overall technique retraining his muscle memory (insert theme song for Six Million Dollar Man).  He was the one making calls during playoff game when Browns beat Steelers.  

 

Cleveland Browns (2020–2022)

• Offensive coordinator

Cleveland Browns (2023)

• Offensive coordinator & quarterbacks coach

Frankly Mayfield sucked coming out of college and needed a lot of help.  He played well and then front office thought he was "immature" and traded for headcase QB from Texans.

[SirAndrew]

I don’t think these guys individually resurrected their career’s. It’s a matter of fate and circumstance. Most QB’s mentioned were average to below average players who won on really good teams. Tannehill in Tennessee is the perfect example. Derrick Henry carried him right into a career “resurrection”, but he was the same guy in Miami. Tannehill just had more success with play action passes to elite receivers in Tennessee. A better QB probably takes those Titans to a Super Bowl with prime Derrick Henry. 

[chris heff]

Jim Plunkett, may be the greatest resurrection ever! Oh wait, second best.

 

Remember when Geno threw three interceptions in a row to the Bills? Good times, good times.

[ganesh]

10 hours ago, RangerDave said:

Steve Young, anyone?

Agreed.... Young, Favre, Brees,  all at the top of this list.

[LABILLBACKER]

Bad organizations can easily ruin good qbs. 

[BisonMan]

That Daryle Lamonica guy in Oakland turned out great. I forgot what team traded him away! 🤦‍♂️ 🤪

 

🤬, I’m old!

[Sierra Foothills]

22 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

I wouldn’t pencil Darnold in as a resurrection case yet. 
 

There’s plenty of time this season for the Cinderella story to end on the bench. 

 

... for his victory tour float to turn back into a pumpkin.

 

21 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

All great examples. I remember when Jim Kelly broke Harbaugh’s jaw and it ended up costing him half a million in game checks

 

Jim Kelly broke Jim Harbaugh's jaw?

 

21 hours ago, Malazan said:

the Sam Darnold resurrection is premature. His MVP campaign has already died. You give any QB who can make it to the NFL the longest time to throw in the league and Jefferson and he'll seem competent. You just saw last night on the last drive what happens when you need Darnold to actually do anything.

 

And now with his trusted blindside protector Christian Darrisaw out for the season...

 

BTW, Kevin McConnell is not getting enough flack for calling a running play in that situation instead of a kneel down.

 

21 hours ago, MJS said:

I think there are countless other QBs who could have thrived and revived their careers if they got into better situations and were actually given a shot.

Yes! It took him until year 8 to actually become a good QB. He was 31 years old before he did anything meaningful in the league.

 

I posted this elsewhere but it fits well here:

 

During the 2018 preseason playing for the Raiders, EJ Manuel led the NFL in passing.

 

In 4 games he went 40-56 (71.4%) for 477 yards (8.5 YPA) with 4 TDs and 0 interceptions for a passer rating of 120.9.

 

https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-stats/passing/2019/preseason

 

He was cut by Gruden in the final cutdown who chose to keep AJ McCarron as Derek Carr's backup.

 

In February 2019 EJ was signed by  Andy Reid but chose to retire less than 3 months later without playing a down for the Chiefs.

 

Point is if Geno Smith resurrected his career I'm pretty sure EJ could have too.

 

21 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Who is your number 1 “what if” QB ?

 

Although he had a very solid career, my choice would be Randall Cunningham. He could’ve been the GOAT if he  went somewhere where they knew how to develop properly and design an offense around his skill set. I feel like he was a victim of the times, but a forward thinking coach might’ve been able to see the potential. If he played today with the rules they have now? Forget about it. Dudes like Cunningham and Fran Tarkenton would’ve ate in this era. 

 

20 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

If you look back at who Cunningham played with, it was a lot of garbage. And he was the qb of arguably the greatest team to never play in a SB, the Vikes, when he was pretty old. 
 

I think of Moon if they had a defense. Part of me wants to say Rivers but I think the chargers are one of those teams that always chokes. 

 

On the other hand Cunningham had a lot of talent around him... Fred Barnett, Calvin Williams, Herschel Walker, Keith Byars, Roy Green, Heath Sherman, and a great defense with Reggie White, Seth Joyner, Byron Evans, Clyde Simmons, Eric Allen, Andre Waters... like the Warren Moon Houston Oilers teams that you mention, a star-studded lineup.

 

20 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

In a vacuum, pre massage Watson was a much better qb than Baker. Now the Browns trading for Watson with all that baggage? Awful, awful move. 

 

Sounds kinky.

 

20 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

If Trent Dilfer, Nick Foles, and Brad Johnson can win a SB then I think Baker is capable. I feel like people also need to put a bit more respeck on Baker’s arm. He can make all the NFL throws and has excellent placement. 

 

Baker can really spin the ball. Now without Evans and Godwin he has a tough row to hoe.

 

I sense he and Darnold have hit their high water marks for the season.

 

The forecast looks like dry weather.

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

30 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

... for his victory tour float to turn back into a pumpkin.

 

 

Jim Kelly broke Jim Harbaugh's jaw?

 

 

And now with his trusted blindside protector Christian Darrisaw out for the season...

 

BTW, Kevin McConnell is not getting enough flack for calling a running play in that situation instead of a kneel down.

 

 

I posted this elsewhere but it fits well here:

 

During the 2018 preseason playing for the Raiders, EJ Manuel led the NFL in passing.

 

In 4 games he went 40-56 (71.4%) for 477 yards (8.5 YPA) with 4 TDs and 0 interceptions for a passer rating of 120.9.

 

https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-stats/passing/2019/preseason

 

He was cut by Gruden in the final cutdown who chose to keep AJ McCarron as Derek Carr's backup.

 

In February 2019 EJ was signed by  Andy Reid but chose to retire less than 3 months later without playing a down for the Chiefs.

 

Point is if Geno Smith resurrected his career I'm pretty sure EJ could have too.

 

 

 

On the other hand Cunningham had a lot of talent around him... Fred Barnett, Calvin Williams, Herschel Walker, Keith Byars, Roy Green, Heath Sherman, and a great defense with Reggie White, Seth Joyner, Byron Evans, Clyde Simmons, Eric Allen, Andre Waters... like the Warren Moon Houston Oilers teams that you mention, a star-studded lineup.

 

 

Sounds kinky.

 

 

Baker can really spin the ball. Now without Evans and Godwin he has a tough row to hoe.

 

I sense he and Darnold have hit their high water marks for the season.

 

The forecast looks like dry weather.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/flashback-jim-harbaugh-once-broke-his-hand-punching-jim-kelly/amp/
 

here’s a good article from Harbaugh’s perspective. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/flashback-jim-harbaugh-once-broke-his-hand-punching-jim-kelly/amp/
 

here’s a good article from Harbaugh’s perspective. 

 

That's hysterical.  So Jim Kelly's face is tougher than Harbaugh's hand.