Andy Reid: Myth or Mahomes

[hondo in seattle]

4 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Our defense was near perfect health in the 13 seconds game.  The Chiefs put up 42 points and 552 yards on us.  Don't give me the injury bs.

 

My good doctor, my memory is an imperfect instrument but as I recall...

 

In the 2023 playoff loss, Milano (the heart & soul of our defense), Tre White, Michah Hyde, Tyrel Dodson, Christian Benford, Taylor Rapp, Baylon Spector, and Jordan Phillips were all unavailable.  Rasul Douglas played on a gimpy knee.  AJ Kline imitated someone trying to cover Tavis Kelce.  Someone wearing number 40 suited up but it wasn't the future Hall of Famer known as Von Miller.  

 

The 2022 playoffs were weird.  Psychologically, the team was dealing with the Topps shooting and Damar's onfield death/cardiac arrest.  Hyde and Milano were both out.  Others too if I recall correctly.  

 

In the 2021 playoff loss to KC, both defenses were equally bad, each giving up 36 points in regulation despite Spags being viewed by many to be the best DC in the league.  Sometimes even great DC struggle to stop an offense that's executing at a high level.  The game was effectively decided by a coin toss - a situation so blatanty unfair that the league immediately change OT rules in the aftermath of the game.  

 

I think McD is the same coach in the playoffs that he is in the regular season.  Good disguises.  Fundamentally &  tactically sound if not quite brilliant.  That gets the job done against average teams.  But when you're going up against the league's best in the playoffs and you're not 100% and/or don't have a strong enough roster, it's a problem.  

1 hour ago, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

The guy that has more INTs than TDs this season is a better decision maker than the guy with 12 TDs and 0 INTs?  Interesting.

 

When you look at the totality of their careers...  yes.  

[dpberr]

I give Andy Reid credit for keeping his staff of great lieutenants together.  I don't think KC enjoys the run of success it has had without Steve Spagnuolo, Dave Toub and Matt Nagy.  

 

I also think he improved as a tactician as he got older.  Part of what makes the Chiefs dangerous is they change and adapt quickly and prey on conservative play calling, especially when it's late in the game.  They know 95% of the coaches in the league retreat into the shell when the game is on the line.    

 

When you play the Chiefs, you have to scrap the scripts and plans, and play aggressive. 

 

 

[JohnNord]

12 hours ago, DeepPass said:

I get a bit tired of hearing Andy is the BEST NFL Coach. He's coached 26 years as a Head Coach with a career record of 264-144-1.  A winning record of .647%

 

He failed at every Super Bowl opportunity BEFORE drafting Patrick Mahomes in 2018.  In 2019, with Mahomes really running the show., Andy got his 1st Super Bowl win.  The rest is history.

 

Sean McDermott is 78-43 in Buffalo.  That's a 645% winning record.  Josh Allen isn't as good as Mahomes.  I wish he was !  Mahomes just plays the game at a different level.

 

The day will come when the Bills win a Super Bow with Sean!!

He’s a very good head coach that has greatly benefited from having Mahomes…and now Steve Spagnolo as his DC.   
 

To his credit, he’s an excellent schemer and play caller and usually gets the most out of his talent.  

[C.Biscuit97]

33 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ya fair points on Spags during the regular season as he can struggle at times.

 

But in a big game way more often than not, his defence rises. (Including his time in New York)

 

If I had to pick one DC in a "got to have it " game, the answer for me would easily be Spags

Good points. But I do think their job is easier because they have Mahomes so their margin of error is bigger than a team that starts Mitchell Tribusky for example. 
 

much easier for a defense to attack when they have a lead or know that if they give up 14 points, the game is over. 

12 minutes ago, dpberr said:

I give Andy Reid credit for keeping his staff of great lieutenants together.  I don't think KC enjoys the run of success it has had without Steve Spagnuolo, Dave Toub and Matt Nagy.  

 

I also think he improved as a tactician as he got older.  Part of what makes the Chiefs dangerous is they change and adapt quickly and prey on conservative play calling, especially when it's late in the game.  They know 95% of the coaches in the league retreat into the shell when the game is on the line.    

 

When you play the Chiefs, you have to scrap the scripts and plans, and play aggressive. 

 

 

Their offense has gotten worse every year under Nagy. 

58 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

I get it, but woulda, coulda, shoulda. I have to go by results. You wouldn't trade Reid for McD? 

Oh, 100%. But I think some fans have discounted that the bills did every bit good of job developing Allen that the Chiefs did with Mahomes. 
 

I do think the Bills could be Philly Andy Reid stage where they have plateau and need a change in leadership (especially an offensive head coach).  But I think we will appreciate how good SM has been once he’s be gone for a few years. Allen was very far from a sure thing and the Buffalo Bills (which is insane to still think about) successfully developed a great qb. It’s wild. 

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

 

When you look at the totality of their careers...  yes.  

I'm not concerned with who was better in the past.  I don't think many people would argue against the fact that Mahomes was a better QB years ago.  In 2024, Josh Allen is a better decision maker than Mahomes.  That is clear from the TD - INT ratios which overwhelmingly favor Allen.  A difference of 1 or 2 INTs could be explained away by luck and a few bad bounces.  Allen has a 12-0 TD/INT ratio.  Mahomes has a 6-8 TD/INT ratio.  

Edited Friday at 03:29 PM by HereComesTheReignAgain

[GerstAusGosheim]

14 hours ago, DeepPass said:

I get a bit tired of hearing Andy is the BEST NFL Coach. The day will come when the Bills win a Super Bow with Sean!!

Andy has an 80% winning percentage with Mahomes. Sean at 65% and his bad decision making is often the reason the team loses.

 

QBs are on the same level. Coaches are not.

[LittleSammy]

The bigger question is - Sean McDermott: Myth or Allen

[folz]

14 hours ago, DeepPass said:

Josh Allen isn't as good as Mahomes.  I wish he was !  Mahomes just plays the game at a different level.

 

 

Last 5 seasons (2020 to game 7 this year):

 

REGULAR SEASON

                             Record           Total Yards          Total TDs         INTs

Mahomes              56-15                21,959                  158                53

Allen                      53-20                21,684                  189                57

 

PLAYOFFS

                             Record           Total Yards          Total TDs         INTs

Mahomes              11-2                   4,031                    30                  6

Allen                       5-4                  2,930                    25                  4

 

Now, of course, Pat has played 4 more playoff games than Josh in that span. So, if we do playoff game averages, it looks like this:

                            

Mahomes        310 yards/game    2.3 TDs/game    0.46 INTs/game

Allen                326 yards/game   2.7 TDs/game     0.44 INTs/game

 

So, Josh's game averages in the playoffs are slightly better in all three categories.

 

The two quarterback's stats are pretty darn even except for two areas. Josh has a significant lead in overall TDs, while Patrick, obviously, has the playoff wins/record and SBs (which I get it, is the most important thing...but it is also a team sport).

 

WHAT IF Buffalo won the last two playoff meetings with KC (which were both down to the wire---KC was obviously the better team when they first met in the AFC championship game).

 

Pat's playoff record (from 2020 on) would then be 7-3 with one Super Bowl win

Josh's playoff record (from 2020 on) would be anywhere from 7-4 (if they lost the games following the KC games) to 11-2 (if they made and won the two SBs). Obviously it would probably be somewhere in between those two things (but Josh would have had a crack at two Super Bowl appearances).

 

With those two playoff games, we are talking what, a total of 1-2 plays in each game that determined the outcomes. If they went the Bills way, Josh would have the better playoff record and possibly a Super Bowl as well. With that and the fact that it is a team game, and weighing in injuries, etc. I find it pretty hard to separate the two quarterbacks in any meaningful way.

 

imo, Josh is right there, side-by-side with Mahomes as the only two tier-1 QBs in the league right now. Prove to me that Mahomes is better. Does Bass missing a field goal and Levi Wallace not being able to cover Kelce make Mahomes a better QB than Allen? Like I said, it's a team game. 

 

Ok, one last point/example.

 

From 1990-1996 Mark Rypien had a better playoff win percentage than either Kelly or Marino and he won a Super Bowl, which neither of the other two were able to do. But, does anyone think that Rypien was a better overall QB than Marino or Kelly? Even though the QB is the most important factor, it still takes an entire team to win in the playoffs/Super Bowls. Plus there is luck, injuries, circumstances that weigh in as well. So, if you are just looking at the two QBs in a vacuum, I don't think playoff record should be a determining factor, especially when Josh has played so well in the playoffs (I mean he has probably two of the best playoff games ever by a Qb---the perfect Pats game and 13 seconds).

[kitchen sink]

17 hours ago, DeepPass said:

"Josh Allen isn't as good as Mahomes."

 This is based on what data and evidence, please?

 

And please do not use team metrics like super bowl wins or appearances. 

[Matt_In_NH]

Pass this guy the jelly

[Matt_In_NH]

Once you win some super bowls you get the benefit of the doubt, until then it is all doubt.

9 minutes ago, kitchen sink said:

 This is based on what data and evidence, please?

 

And please do not use team metrics like super bowl wins or appearances. 

Can he use MVP's?

[MiracleAtRich1393]

Patrick Mahomes: Myth or Andy Reid?

[LABILLBACKER]

19 hours ago, DeepPass said:

I get a bit tired of hearing Andy is the BEST NFL Coach. He's coached 26 years as a Head Coach with a career record of 264-144-1.  A winning record of .647%

 

He failed at every Super Bowl opportunity BEFORE drafting Patrick Mahomes in 2018.  In 2019, with Mahomes really running the show., Andy got his 1st Super Bowl win.  The rest is history.

 

Sean McDermott is 78-43 in Buffalo.  That's a 645% winning record.  Josh Allen isn't as good as Mahomes.  I wish he was !  Mahomes just plays the game at a different level.

 

The day will come when the Bills win a Super Bow with Sean!!

For a thread like this we need a hybrid emoji combo of eyeroll, laugh and disagree. 

[Success]

Reid is a fantastic coach.  He had McNabb, and dominated the NFC during many of those years.  Not that McNabb was a bad QB, but I wouldn't call him elite.

 

I'm not sure if he plans to retire - but it would be very interesting to see how the mighty Mahomes looks if he does retire.  No one will ever convince me that Allen wouldn't have at least a couple of rings with Reid or someone at his level as his coach.

 

[BillsFan130]

12 minutes ago, Success said:

Reid is a fantastic coach.  He had McNabb, and dominated the NFC during many of those years.  Not that McNabb was a bad QB, but I wouldn't call him elite.

 

I'm not sure if he plans to retire - but it would be very interesting to see how the mighty Mahomes looks if he does retire.  No one will ever convince me that Allen wouldn't have at least a couple of rings with Reid or someone at his level as his coach.

 

Yep agreed. Even Spags as the DC
 

If Josh had Spags and chiefs had Leslie Frazier/mcdermott calling the defence, I have no doubt in my mind bills win the 13 seconds game against them and the playoff game last year

Edited Friday at 09:36 PM by BillsFan130

[Neo]

I’ll be brief.  Greatness is so contextual.  We are fans and we go back and forth between teams and individuals.  Fun, no doubt.

 

Mahomes and Reid are individually great and paired superb.  Obvious, and not terribly interesting to me, because it’s obvious.

 

Interesting to me?   Marino and Shula.   We hear “among the greats of all time” about each in the role pairing most critical:  coach and QB.

 

Marino and Shula.  Who failed, who carried who, and who’s not truly among the greatest?

 

I have my view.

 

 

[Mikie2times]

Without Mahomes

11-13 in the playoffs, one conference championship

 

With Mahomes

15-3 in the playoffs, 4 conference championships, 3 Super Bowls

 

He's a very good coach, but it's a mistake to think this isn't another Brady/Belichick situation. 

 

Edited Friday at 10:23 PM by Mikie2times

[Chicken Boo]

This is like when people try to downplay Belichick's greatness because Tom Brady won a Super Bowl in Tampa with Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Gronk and a rejuvenated Leonard Fournette.  Like Jameis Winston didn't throw for 5,100 yards there the season before. Completely forgetting that Belichick had 2 rings already before Brady even came along.  

 

Andy Reid or Kyle Shanahan are best developers of QB talent this league has ever seen.  Who's schemes do you think Patrick is running?  

 

It's not one thing or the other, is a combination of coaching and talent why the Chiefs have 3 Super Bowl victories, including in 2 in the past 2 years.  

 

Andy Reid is an excellent offensive mind, aided by an all-time great QB.  

Edited Friday at 10:37 PM by Chicken Boo

[hondo in seattle]

7 hours ago, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

I'm not concerned with who was better in the past.  I don't think many people would argue against the fact that Mahomes was a better QB years ago.  In 2024, Josh Allen is a better decision maker than Mahomes.  That is clear from the TD - INT ratios which overwhelmingly favor Allen.  A difference of 1 or 2 INTs could be explained away by luck and a few bad bounces.  Allen has a 12-0 TD/INT ratio.  Mahomes has a 6-8 TD/INT ratio.  

 

There is clear evidence for your position and I get your point.  

 

But Josh has a multi-year record of putting on the Superman cape and trying to make low-probability big plays instead of high probabilty short gainers.  I'm afraid he'll put that cape back on in positions of stress.  

 

But I hope you're correct and that Josh has matured and is indeed a better decision-maker - now and forever.

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, folz said:

 

Last 5 seasons (2020 to game 7 this year):

 

REGULAR SEASON

                             Record           Total Yards          Total TDs         INTs

Mahomes              56-15                21,959                  158                53

Allen                      53-20                21,684                  189                57

 

PLAYOFFS

                             Record           Total Yards          Total TDs         INTs

Mahomes              11-2                   4,031                    30                  6

Allen                       5-4                  2,930                    25                  4

 

Now, of course, Pat has played 4 more playoff games than Josh in that span. So, if we do playoff game averages, it looks like this:

                            

Mahomes        310 yards/game    2.3 TDs/game    0.46 INTs/game

Allen                326 yards/game   2.7 TDs/game     0.44 INTs/game

 

So, Josh's game averages in the playoffs are slightly better in all three categories.

 

The two quarterback's stats are pretty darn even except for two areas. Josh has a significant lead in overall TDs, while Patrick, obviously, has the playoff wins/record and SBs (which I get it, is the most important thing...but it is also a team sport).

 

WHAT IF Buffalo won the last two playoff meetings with KC (which were both down to the wire---KC was obviously the better team when they first met in the AFC championship game).

 

Pat's playoff record (from 2020 on) would then be 7-3 with one Super Bowl win

Josh's playoff record (from 2020 on) would be anywhere from 7-4 (if they lost the games following the KC games) to 11-2 (if they made and won the two SBs). Obviously it would probably be somewhere in between those two things (but Josh would have had a crack at two Super Bowl appearances).

 

With those two playoff games, we are talking what, a total of 1-2 plays in each game that determined the outcomes. If they went the Bills way, Josh would have the better playoff record and possibly a Super Bowl as well. With that and the fact that it is a team game, and weighing in injuries, etc. I find it pretty hard to separate the two quarterbacks in any meaningful way.

 

imo, Josh is right there, side-by-side with Mahomes as the only two tier-1 QBs in the league right now. Prove to me that Mahomes is better. Does Bass missing a field goal and Levi Wallace not being able to cover Kelce make Mahomes a better QB than Allen? Like I said, it's a team game. 

 

Ok, one last point/example.

 

From 1990-1996 Mark Rypien had a better playoff win percentage than either Kelly or Marino and he won a Super Bowl, which neither of the other two were able to do. But, does anyone think that Rypien was a better overall QB than Marino or Kelly? Even though the QB is the most important factor, it still takes an entire team to win in the playoffs/Super Bowls. Plus there is luck, injuries, circumstances that weigh in as well. So, if you are just looking at the two QBs in a vacuum, I don't think playoff record should be a determining factor, especially when Josh has played so well in the playoffs (I mean he has probably two of the best playoff games ever by a Qb---the perfect Pats game and 13 seconds).

Mahomes has had the better:

1.  HC (who's also OC)

2.  DC

3.  Elite pass rusher

4.  HOF Caliber receivers 

 

....Josh has had 1 borderline hof wr.  This was a continuity and organizational failure to help their elite qb.